Which engine oil gives best protection for a highmileage NSX
- Thread starter rimsemp
- Start date
Yes it means it worked the best in a specific test, just like you may be very good at one thing and just ok at everything else. Oil does a lot of different things, cooling, cleaning, holding debris, neutrualizing acid ...... and to judge something by just one thing is bad.
I put Mobil 1 5W50 in my 92.
5 for the engine to be quickly lubricated.
50 because I track the car sometimes and I want the oil to
resist high temperature.
The question is NOT what is the best oil... but what is the
best oil for what I do with the car and where I live.
5 for the engine to be quickly lubricated.
50 because I track the car sometimes and I want the oil to
resist high temperature.
The question is NOT what is the best oil... but what is the
best oil for what I do with the car and where I live.
The "W" stands for "winter" and you're not going to get any increased lubrication from a "5W" unless you're starting your car below 0 deg F.
And I'm not aware that a higher viscosity is going to protect any better even under "extreme" or "track" conditions than the recommended viscosity. It's my understanding that running a higher viscosity than recommended can result in under-lubrication, particularly in a high-tolerance motor like the NSX's where the larger oil molecules of a higher viscosity arent small enough to get into the areas that need lubrication.
I'd like to get this issue addressed since I am of the understanding that running a higher-than-recommended viscosity in any engine is highly discouraged and is very unwise. Based on some of the posts here someone might think this is a good idea and I'd at least like the posters who claim to subscribe to this practice to back up their methods with some data or expert opinions since it goes against the owners manual and conventional wisdom and I have been told specifically by experts that it is potentially harmful.
The "W" stands for "winter" and you're not going to get any increased lubrication from a "5W" unless you're starting your car below 0 deg F.
And I'm not aware that a higher viscosity is going to protect any better even under "extreme" or "track" conditions than the recommended viscosity. It's my understanding that running a higher viscosity than recommended can result in under-lubrication, particularly in a high-tolerance motor like the NSX's where the larger oil molecules of a higher viscosity arent small enough to get into the areas that need lubrication.
I'd like to get this issue addressed since I am of the understanding that running a higher-than-recommended viscosity in any engine is highly discouraged and is very unwise. Based on some of the posts here someone might think this is a good idea and I'd at least like the posters who claim to subscribe to this practice to back up their methods with some data or expert opinions since it goes against the owners manual and conventional wisdom and I have been told specifically by experts that it is potentially harmful.
I agree...
10W-30 is the subscribed oil for the NSX for a reason. Lets not get scientific and try to outsmart the manufacturer.
You're absolutelly right, why the hell I changed my stock pads for "performance" pads
Honda put the stock pads for a reason and I'm not an ingeneer
:biggrin:The firts and only oil change I made at an Honda dealer, they put 5W40 oil. But
dealers are not supposed to follow the manufacturer recomendations :wink:
You're absolutelly right, why the hell I changed my stock pads for "performance" pads
Honda put the stock pads for a reason and I'm not an ingeneer
The firts and only oil change I made at an Honda dealer, they put 5W40 oil. But
dealers are not supposed to follow the manufacturer recomendations :wink:
Why not run jet fuel and remove the rev limiter? Honda has no idea what they're doing.
And what's with those tires? Those OEM tires don't grip worth a damn on the track. Honda is really losing it.
I believe that you're not actually serious here but in the slightest chance that you are actually serious...
If you're actually comparing a brake pad that has a specific application and has been developed specifically for performance use (with significant drawbacks on the street) with a simple increase in viscosity in the oil in your $15,000 engine (and a practice that has been highly discouraged by some of the world's top engineers) than you are not dealing with a full deck, my friend.
And the fact that a Honda dealer put 40 wt in your NSX means nothing. I'm not surprised if they didn't even have an NSX manual around.
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It's the explanation of my previous post :wink:
Do you track your car ?
Do you live in a cold weither area ?
Do you do only small trajets in town ?
Do you drive at WOT for long period ?
Is your car modded ?
Does your car burn oil ?
Does Honda recomend a specific brand of oil ?
Does Honda states to change viscosity of oil for a 173500 miles old engine ?
If you have a specific use/modification of your car, you have to "slightly"
change Honda's recomendations.
If not, follow Honda's engineers, use 10W30 as recomended and voilà :biggrin:
If your engine is fine and doesn't eat oil, keep the oil you're using right now :tongue:
That's something people should know. Oils like Amsoil above aren't even API certified. I definitally wouldn't put them in a $30,000 NSX engine.
It means nothing. Snake oils like prolong use tests like these. It's easy to fool people, just add a lot of zink and you'll look like you have some magic oil.
Companies like Amsoil say on their website that the API test that ALL oils do are "too expensive". If they can't afford the normal tests, then they can't afford the same level of engineers, research, etc I would have to think.
.
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This is the question I would ask myself when looking at a low volume, high promise oil like Amsoil, Redline, or Royal Purple.
Is the allure of gettings an extra 50,000 miles out of your engine by some magical uncertified oil worth the risk that the oil will actually do more damage than good?
Do you think maybe 350,000 miles out of Mobil 1 is enough???
.
Is the allure of gettings an extra 50,000 miles out of your engine by some magical uncertified oil worth the risk that the oil will actually do more damage than good?
Do you think maybe 350,000 miles out of Mobil 1 is enough???
.
You're absolutelly right, why the hell I changed my stock pads for "performance" pads
Honda put the stock pads for a reason and I'm not an ingeneer
The firts and only oil change I made at an Honda dealer, they put 5W40 oil. But
dealers are not supposed to follow the manufacturer recomendations :wink:
I wasn't talking about brake pads, this is a thread about oil. I also have performance brake pads, but they put a lot of dust on the wheels where the OEM pads don't. Everything is a comprimise. Do what you choose, it is no concern of mine. I was merely stating that 10W-30 is the best oil to use in the NSX. If you disagree, that is your right. Good Luck with that.
I don't take my car to a dealership because usually the rookies do the oil changes and don't care about your vehicle. I change my own oil so I know that the oil pan drain plug doesn't get stripped out and I know what oil gets put in. Mobile 1 10W-30 for me.
The recommended 10W30/5W30 has been around long before 1991...and so has 10W40/5W40 but that is not recommended by Honda for use in the NSX under any circumstances.
How exactly does a higher viscosity protect my NSX engine more effectively if I have an aftermarket exhuast? Or drive at WOT around town? Or driving at the track, as you suggest?
How many NSX owners do you know personally that go to more than 5 HPDEs per year? I know about 20 and all of them use a viscosity no higher than 30 wt even with boost.
How many NSX engines have you rebuilt? How many NSX engines have you stroked? Added boost to? I wonder what Mark Basch, Jon Martin, Chris @ SOS or Shane @ Autowave would say about what viscosity to run in the NSX engine at the track (or any time). Well, I can tell you I've never heard any of them or anyone else who actually knows what they're talking about suggest any other viscosity than 30 wt for any application on the NSX--ever.
You have no basis for claiming that higher viscosity is better for the NSX under any circumstances. I've yet to see any information that would give me any reason to deviate from Honda's recommendation of 10W30 in temps above 0 deg F.
What information or data is leading you to believe a higher viscosity at the track (or anywhere) is more effective than Honda's general recommendation? I have the opinions about 5 of the top NSX engine tuners/techs in the US, top oil industry engineers, Honda's engineers and basic fluid dynamics and thermodynamics leading me to my conclusion.
?
Ski_Banker
Suspended
Since oil opinions are like psycho ex girlfriends, here's my $.02
The Honda recommendation for 10W-30 is the best weight for a healthy NSX engine, driven like a typical driver would: Lots of starts n stops, hot weather, cold weather, and an occasional track day. PERIOD. This is the best one size fits all weight.
If that does not match your driving habits (ie, if yours is a dedicated track car) then a heavier weight probably makes sense. Unless you have an oil cooler, in which case 10W-30 is still the best.
The Honda recommendation for 10W-30 is the best weight for a healthy NSX engine, driven like a typical driver would: Lots of starts n stops, hot weather, cold weather, and an occasional track day. PERIOD. This is the best one size fits all weight.
If that does not match your driving habits (ie, if yours is a dedicated track car) then a heavier weight probably makes sense. Unless you have an oil cooler, in which case 10W-30 is still the best.
Well, I've never heard any NSX engine tech or any other expert ever suggest anything other than 30wt for the NSX engine so I don't believe any NSX engine condition exceeds the ability of 30wt to protect it and 40wt clearly isn't the best for normal situations so I really would be reluctant to say anything other than 30wt was the best viscosity for the NSX engine under any circumstances.
I think the practice of using higher viscosity in the NSX engine in any capacity is pure conjecture and assumption and isn't based on any data, fact or expert opinion and the practice is at best less effective than 30 wt and at worst harmful for the $15,000 engine. Your statement about having an oil cooler is the same conjecture, speculation and theorizing that surrounds the practice. Did an NSX engine expert or oil engineer tell you that an oil cooler has an impact on whether 30wt or 40wt oil is more or less effective in the NSX under certain conditions or is it your opinion the NSX heats the oil to a higher temperature on the track than can be adequately handled by a 30 wt oil?
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Ski_Banker
Suspended
My argument is just theoretical, and it is based solely on the viscosity of oils when temperature is consistently higher than "normal" like on track. Based on one of those temperature/viscosity charts, a 40W or even 50W will be like a 30W under normal conditions AND if you're ONLY using it on track, then that makes sense to me. Since I'm a very typical NSX owner, a 10W-30 is what I use. But there are the 5% of folks whose usage is much different than mine, and for those folks it seems -like brake pads, rubber- that nonstandard alternatives might be better. Taken to the extreme, what you are saying is that the car is ready to drive off the showroom floor, owners manual in hand, and into a 24 hour Enduro or with fat tires, maybe the Dakkar rally (as long as it's under 3750 miles for the harsh conditions service interval!)
FWIW, I wouldn't drive 400 miles to the track and back with 10W-50 in my car, but if I knew I would be on track for 3-4 days straight, I would change the oil there before and after with 10W-40. :wink:
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I think Honda is aware that oil tends to decrease in viscosity when hot and yet they still recommend 30wt and so does every NSX engine tuner, not to mention oil engineers have urged people specifically not put a higher than recommended weight of oil in at any time.
What I do know is that if it were beneficial to use anything other than 30wt someone that works on engines for NSXs that are tracked frequently would have said so and to my knowledge they have not.
Unless you have a background in lubrication engineering and/or fluid dynamics I am perplexed as to why you would be sure that 40wt oil in an NSX engine would protect better than 30 wt. Maybe the 40wt's viscosity does decrease when hotter such as at the track but there may be many other technical factors that you're not considering that make 30wt the best choice even in those scenarios. I don't know enough about the NSX engine and/or motor oil to know if that's the case but neither do you.
I am really shocked that some people here would be so willing to ignore Honda and oil engineers and believe that something is going to be beneficial to their expensive NSX motor when not only has any expert never suggested doing so nor have indicated that it was beneficial in any way but have actually denounced the practice!
The suggestion of using anything other than 30wt oil for the stock NSX engine in any circumstance is absolute speculation and is extremely irresponsible. No expert has ever recommended this and it has been suggested by experts that it could damage your engine.
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I don't want to start a fight but several Honda dealers did mention in the past that the NSX should get the special oil all high-reving Honda engines in Switzerland (S2000 and Integra) get: Motorex TypeR
...
...
...
0W/40. Motorex is a Swiss oil specialist (yes, we have one
) and Honda Switzerland tells them what oil to brew.
Ski_Banker
Suspended
My argument is based on engineering parameters/constraints. EVERYTHING that goes into vehicle design has +'s and -'s. Aluminum chassis? It costs much more and can't be repaired. TCS engagement? Works ok in certain circumstances but not in others. The 10W-30 oil? Is the best for normal owners in normal areas (and yes, that includes the occasional track event too). But wait, 5W-30 is best if you live in cold areas.
Now if the guys with specific NSX track/racecar/ motor rebuilding experience STILL think that 10W-30 is the best, on the track, then I would be a fool to ignore that advice. Factor X for example. But when Ken Sax stuffs his track wheels into his car and drives to a track event, and then says 10W-30 is the best oil weight on the track, I take that with a grain of salt. (No offense Ken :wink
. Particularly since we all know the NSX engine has the potential for oil problems -- on track -- with 10W-30.Final point: 10W-30 "works" on track. But it may not be the "best" in that specific environment.
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Ski_Banker
Suspended
If the owners manual said, specifically, 10W-30 should be used on the track then your point would be valid. But, fact is, it says next to nothing about prepping the vehicle for tracking.
Have you ever spoken personally to one of these NSX engineers? I haven't. For anyone that has, how the question is phrased makes a big difference:
"What is the best oil for the NSX engine on track?"
"What is the best oil for the NSX engine if I track my car?"
Perhaps Factor X can weigh in and settle this once and for all.
Regarding the chart in posts #20 & 25, I spent decades in the design, testing and specifications business, but not in the automotive arena. But, good testing and good lab reports all follow exacting procedures. Hence, my following comments.
When I look at that chart, a couple of important points jump out:
1. The independent test lab's name is not on the chart. So much for traceability. This could be a well-known lab or a 3rd grader starting up a business.
2. I have no idea if ASTM D-4172 relates at all to wear in an automotive engine. I don't have a copy of the standard and haven't bothered to look it up. A complete independent third party test report, not just a single graph extracted from the report, should provide such information.
So, that graph is simply an advertisement and should be treated like any marketing material. It sure doesn't give me any clues as to which of those oils might perform best in my NSX.
Of course, then its back to Ski_banker's comment of "what's best for the track vs best for the street". Those are very different conditions, and most oil manufacturers use different formulations for those very different applications. Some oils used for the track can actually cause acid formation when they cool down that eats away an engine under the stop/start/sit-in-the-garage-for-a-few-weeks conditions of street driving.
When I look at that chart, a couple of important points jump out:
1. The independent test lab's name is not on the chart. So much for traceability. This could be a well-known lab or a 3rd grader starting up a business.
2. I have no idea if ASTM D-4172 relates at all to wear in an automotive engine. I don't have a copy of the standard and haven't bothered to look it up. A complete independent third party test report, not just a single graph extracted from the report, should provide such information.
So, that graph is simply an advertisement and should be treated like any marketing material. It sure doesn't give me any clues as to which of those oils might perform best in my NSX.
Of course, then its back to Ski_banker's comment of "what's best for the track vs best for the street". Those are very different conditions, and most oil manufacturers use different formulations for those very different applications. Some oils used for the track can actually cause acid formation when they cool down that eats away an engine under the stop/start/sit-in-the-garage-for-a-few-weeks conditions of street driving.
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Ski_Banker
Suspended
Maybe two of our NA track guys (a 3.0L and a 3.2L) would be interested in actually doing a scientific experiment:
Use Mobil 1 10W-30, fresh, for two back to back track events - get a used oil analysis. Rinse and repeat.
Use Mobil 1 10W-40 twice again, under similar conditions and get used oil analyses.
Compare those 4 data points and see if -on track- the heavier oil gets any better results.
If we all chip in a couple bucks, that would cover the cost and two folks would get some free oil changes. Any takers? I'd do it but I just don't track my car very often.
Use Mobil 1 10W-30, fresh, for two back to back track events - get a used oil analysis. Rinse and repeat.
Use Mobil 1 10W-40 twice again, under similar conditions and get used oil analyses.
Compare those 4 data points and see if -on track- the heavier oil gets any better results.
If we all chip in a couple bucks, that would cover the cost and two folks would get some free oil changes. Any takers? I'd do it but I just don't track my car very often.
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