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Why don't more owners run cams?

Joined
18 November 2010
Messages
1,057
Location
Pasadena, CA
Doing some research here.

My understanding is that the only offerings right now are:


  • Toda ($$$$, and no one has tested any of their profiles, whether street or track)
  • Regrinds by Web (reliability/durability comes into question)
  • Comptech (not available or supported anymore)
  • SoS (no one seems to have published results)
It sounds like the SoS are regrinds as well.


It doesn't seem like there are a lot of people running cams, period, and I'd like to try to find out why.



  • It is the cost/benefit ratio?
  • It is because adjustable cam gears are impossible to tune/dial in with the motor in the car?
  • Is it something else?
I have seen what people are willing to spend (ITBs, EMSs, etc.) in the name of going fast.



So, for you NA guys:



  • Would a set of new, cast cams designed for optimal NA power appeal to you?
  • What type of gains would you realistically expect (with I/H/E and ECU tuning)?
  • How much would you want to pay for cams, cam gears, and valvetrain (valvesprings, retainers)?


And for you FI guys:



  • Would you be willing to spend more money on top of the $$$$ you've already spent on your FI system?
 
I have an sc, and for me, no I don't want to spend money on cams and stuffs that I have to open up the engine. I prefer bolt-on mods.
 
Well, it seems to me you answered your own question.

These could all be reasons they are not popular.

  • Toda ($$$$, and no one has tested any of their profiles, whether street or track)
  • Regrinds by Web (reliability/durability comes into question)
  • Comptech (not available or supported anymore)
  • SoS (no one seems to have published results)

I think the main reason is what is the point when supercharged or turbo options are available and are much more of a beneficial option.

Camming is popular with pushrod V8s because it is a simple process and nets big gains due to the displacement. Camming lower displacement DOHC vehicles is more expensive with less results.
 
I remember way back reading 4 wheeler magazine where they had a long term test Suzuki Samari. They tried to hot rod the little engine with a downey header and cam. They made a net HP increase of 8 at peak.

The NSX cam's are as close to perfect as possible and this topic has been beat to death over the last 8 years with the same result.

Unless you are running a custom 3.5 stroker motor and want the absolute most power NA and have a racing budget, skip the cams. The same can be said for head porting.
 
Here are the common reasons why people dun do cams:

1. VERY limited knowledge base of cams in the NSX community. You can ask one guy and if he is from a state that doesn't have emission testing he will tell you about his favorite cam that makes power and have very little regards and knowledge if this is appropriate for a street driven NSX in CA, for example.

2. There are cams for NA and cams for FI. If someone wants to upgrade for FI, like an SOS SC then the NA cams may be a good fit with regards to generating more power.

3. High costs - what did ya'll expect with a Niche of a niche of a niche market (sports car, NSX, people that tinker with cams)

4. Limited vendor options. Some vendors have better cam material and design than others

5. No long term data on how long these cams last and effects on engine life.

6. Little performance gain (especially in NA form) - horrible power to price ratio.
 
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Here are the common reasons why people dun do cams:

1. VERY limited knowledge base of cams in the NSX community. You can ask one guy and if he is from a state that doesn't have emission testing he will tell you about his favorite cam that makes power and have very little regards and knowledge if this is appropriate for a street driven NSX in CA, for example.

3. High costs - what did ya'll expect with a Niche of a niche of a niche market (sports car, NSX, people that tinker with cams)

6. Little performance gain (especially in NA form) - horrible power to price ratio.

These are what I would consider the main reasons IMO.

I have an sc, and for me, no I don't want to spend money on cams and stuffs that I have to open up the engine. I prefer bolt-on mods.

Also this...most NSX owners aren't willing to do internal engine work.
 
The NSX was very competitive when it came out in 1991 but today it is one of those cars that you buy when you know how to enjoy hand built quality and refinement. Most owners are happy with how fast the cars are, everything can be made to go faster but there is no point if most of the time all you want to do is this:

2002%20Acura%20NSX_2.jpg
 
The NSX was very competitive when it came out in 1991 but today it is one of those cars that you buy when you know how to enjoy hand built quality and refinement. Most owners are happy with how fast the cars are, everything can be made to go faster but there is no point if most of the time all you want to do is this:

2002%20Acura%20NSX_2.jpg

That's easy for a FI guy to say! :rolleyes:

Gary
 
That's easy for a FI guy to say! :rolleyes:

Gary

But this is exactly my point, when I still owned your car I wanted more power just as everyone else but now that I my '04 came with the CTSC I learned that the ultimate NSX experience is all about acceleration. If I want to go for a drive I don't think about pressing the gas pedal all the way to the floor while shifting through gears, instead I have this image of going half throttle on a nice twisty road through a forest.
 
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At least one person had a cam on our last canyon run :biggrin:

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/olz3VpJ1B2I" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
 
At least one person had a cam on our last canyon run :biggrin:

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/olz3VpJ1B2I" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

I have a video where I was behind one of the NSXCA executive's purple NSX where it almost spun out, when off the shoulder and faced opposite traffic.

It was loaned to a person visiting from Japan.

It's a long 1080p via Go Pro video that I have. I'd post it if someone local can edit it.

:biggrin:
 
At least one person had a cam on our last canyon run :biggrin:

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/olz3VpJ1B2I" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
Stop Stop STOP!!!! I didn't know wtF @#%!#$ happened! LOL Great drive as always though! Can't wait for next year.

Back on topic:
In my limited experience with cams (in the American V8 world) there's always a compromise and it depends on what kind of motor you want to build; high revver or tq monster. I often just let the manufacturers choose for me after telling them what type of build I'm doing. With that said.. the LSx does very well with cam and head updates but remaining smog legal will be challenging.

The lack of a true need for cams on the NSX seems logical to me. NSX owners have a pretty decent platform in the NSX to begin with. Yes, of course the stock C30 can be done better but the NSX owners are not like the K20 guys. The blocks/heads aren't cheap if you screw up and you can't double or triple the hp on a C30 as easily as in a K20.

It's only been recently that NSXs are within the budget of the people (like me/us) who are willing to tinker with it more but this market is smaller so lack of interest from the vendors.

It's been said many times though. FI isn't perfect (i'm dealing with heatsoak issues myself) but it's got a waaaaaay bang for your buck all points considered and the stock platform is very receptive to low boost FI. I went with a tried and true CTSC kit even though its still not perfect and falls short in some areas. If you're dealing with SMOG issues then for sure it's even more of a no brainer to go FI.

If you're interested in keeping it NA (I can totally understand the appeal) you should spend some time with Jon Martin too. He's local in LA and he was the originator of the famed 3.8L. He did all the testing on the stroker kit and the machine work on the heads etc. This will save you some time and possibly catapult you faster into your own build.

I want to check out your new gears!!! Hope you put a lightweight flywheel on there. I've got a Tilton i'm saving for just the right time.

$0.02 :)
 
I still think there's potential in well designed cams, as the NSX motor features great flowing VTEC heads. Endyn and Portflow have told me there's about 20-25 cfm to be gained on the intake side and about 35 cfm to be gained on the exhaust side. That's at .450" of lift, but the stock cams don't approach .450", so a cam that approaches that would make a stock engine feel better, and a engine with ported heads even better.

I just find it interesting that the NSX market has evolved into a predominantly FI one, since at its heart Honda and the VTEC engines are NA screamers.

I know Jon. I'm actually seeing him next Thursday. I'm still trying to develop stuff that doesn't require complete disassembly of the bottom end.

Yes, the Clutchmasters FX200 came with an aluminum flywheel. It was just a tad under 7 lbs. I'll be at the meet next Thursday, so you're more than welcome to try it out. My RDX injectors should be dialed in as well.
 
I'd LOVE to see a nice set of cams for the NSX. If you can package a set of cams, headers, exhaust, injectors, chip then that can be like stage 3 of a marketable package :)

This would do well I would think. Something mild that would smog and could drop in and not require a stand alone would be great.

Bear in mind install costs vs other Hondas though. Changing valve springs without dropping the motor may not be a walk in the park and having to pay for the motor to be dropped to install valve springs would kill a lot of enthusiasm for this
 
At least one person had a cam on our last canyon run :biggrin:

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/olz3VpJ1B2I" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Because this guy wanted to drive like Mia in the beginning of Fast 5...:biggrin:
 
I'm pretty sure I have four cams. People removing them are probably the same as those who remove their cats. I can't explain why people would remove the cams. :tongue:
 
From reading the posts since comptech first started the cams thing some 20 years ago, the inability to make springs that would hold up has been the primary problem from my peronal read. Along with all the other factors of regrind, cost, not really knowing what you are getting. Comptech used to say there was around 10 HP to be gained. That likely meant around 7-8. I suspect the japanese race builders may have found a good springset, but that doesn't do us any good. They have likely changed the entire valvetrain geometry thus not exceeding the working spring compression which the available aftermarket cams likely exceed. Only my educated assumption, but a have to assume the stock config takes the valvesprings to their limit of working travel. Going farther weakens them pretty fast. Welcome rebuttals.
 
.


he must have forgot his Yellow tires at home.

then it would be complete.

dont they sell yellow steering wheels? now that would be cool



.
 
Welcome rebuttals.

Rebuttal? I’ve had Comptech high-lift camshafts and stock valve springs in my NSX for the past 17 years and 100,000 miles. Plenty of those miles have been at 8000 rpm and with those camshafts my naturally-aspirated 3.0 liter 5-speed goes a GPS-measured 186 mph on the Autobahn. According to my shop the engine seems to be in as-new condition. That being said, I’m not sure why more people haven’t installed high-lift camshafts in their NSXs.
 
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