Why is the Porsche Cayman better then the NSX

[NetViper]

I posted this same question on Fchat a little bit ago. They didn't have much to say about it other than the price is far less than a NSX. My arguement is that the Cayman S is 60K. But anyone know has ever looked at a porsche knows that includes next to no options. By the time you are done on a Cayman S, I bet it will cost 70-75K. That is pretty close to what people pay for NSX's these days.

I think the NSX is much better looking and should still hold the edge in performance. We shall see.

I just hate when people say "EVO's and STI's can beat your 90K exotic". Well, guess what, they can also beat nearly every porsche minus the turbo and GT series.

 

[jadkar]

Like I said, I don't want to spark a verbal battle but it seems that...

You're sore that the NSX-R isn't available where you live (join the club)

I'm sore because I work with a guy who wears his Porsche hat and yellow sunglasses (they match his Boxster) to work every day. Who lived in Germany for 5 years and is convinced Porsche cars are inspired and co-engineered by God.

Bottom line is obviously I wasn't down-playing you NSX. Trust me, I read your site, I know how much you have done to your car and your driving expertise. It's just that it seems (from you statements) that you too are leanig towards "Porsche is king", and quite frankly I think they're not such great automobiles. I was a parts manager for one of the largest Porsche car dealerships on the East coast, Paul Miller Porsche. I have seen first hand how many rear main seals Porsche has devloped trying to fix a problem that they can't. I've seen 996s come off the trailer and drive 2 miles and sieze their engines. I can sit here all day and talk about the crap that comes out of that company, but yet they STILL have this ora about them.

Now, my origianl post was purely a "why does the NSX get no respect??" and it's seems as though this post has grown into a something that I didn't intend.

Anyway...you get my drift

 

[WingZ]

What Im not clear on is why the 3.2l cp's time was so sucky. I used to have an S2000 and I currently have my 02 NSX and as good as S2000s are, I perceive a wide margin between the two cars.

I don't know about that when I drive my S2K through my favorite loop the S2k feels not as powerful ,but just as quick.

Yeah the Cayman is nothing special and if the base price is 60k it probably doesn't even come with seats

 

[Gerard van Santen]

edit: I can again when I solved these annoying engine and cooling problems :frown:

Wolfgang,
How is it possible that you still don't have solved your cooling problems

 

[Hugh]

8:38 - Honda NSX

It's obvious to anyone who has ever driven an NSX on the track or seen any of the many Best Motoring videos that this particular lap time was either acheived with an NSX that had mechanical problems or with a crackhead driver.

In fact looking over that list of lap times it's painfully obvious that are many question marks. An M3 besting a Murcielago? Yeah right! And I'm Mary Poppins.

This list has as much credibility as the Iraqi Information Minister.

 

[NSX-Racer]

It's just that it seems (from you statements) that you too are leaning towards "Porsche is king"

Oh no, big misunderstanding - I'm far from that! I don't like the look too much (especialy not of the Cayman), I hear a lot of bad stories about P-car failures on the track (and have seen them personaly) and they are way too numerous here. Just for the record: NSX is my king.

Gerard: You ask the same question that I ask again and again - you may see my special thread about it (in the track section I guess).

 

[satan_srv]

Now, my origianl post was purely a "why does the NSX get no respect??" and it's seems as though this post has grown into a something that I didn't intend.

I dunno dude, the NSX never has gotten respect from those kind of cars/owners and it's not going to change. The sooner you stop caring, the better off you'll be be :biggrin:

 

[khappucino]

I dont think its such a 'bad' vehicle, i mean its not totally godlike i guess as some magazines may suggest, but i think its interesting that this 2 Seater Coupe will be effectivly faster than the non-turbo Carrerra offerings at at least some sort of price reduction (from what i have read).

Although i kind of laugh to myself as some Carrerra owners may be more frustrated now that the Caymen will be mistaken for their pricier Carrerra's...
even I am guilty of this when i see a Boxster coming head on from a distance...
now its even worse since it'll be a coupe, and has some lettering on the back
that starts with the letters "Ca" LOL!!! :biggrin:

 

[goldNSX]

The Cayman will be for sure a bestseller but it lacks what all Porsche's lacked in the past: a really beautiful design. Even in the 90's the interior of a Porsche was really ugly. The body reminds me still of a VW Beetle of the 40's. Porsche never had the balls to design a really masculine car. The Cayman is much too feminine, esp. the back. Even the new 911 looks boring to me. It's a boring car for even more poring people like bankers who drive their cars during the winter and every rainy day.
The NSX on the other hand is maybe a little bit too old for faster Nürburgring-laps but it's anchor lies in the late 80's where Honda won everything in F1. With every ignition turn and every throttle push it feels and sounds like one of the F1-engine shown below. Only Ferrari has the same historic background.

 

[2slow2speed]

In fact looking over that list of lap times it's painfully obvious that are many question marks. An M3 besting a Murcielago? Yeah right! And I'm Mary Poppins.

This list has as much credibility as the Iraqi Information Minister.

The E46 M3 was the CSL running with MPSC's (R-compound tires) The Murcielago is *way* heavier than the *CSL* E46 M3 so it's totally believable.

Have you actually been on track driving with/against a Murcielago? I have, and there is one word that comes to mind right away *heavy* (P.S. I'm not dissing you, just giving my 2 cents based on my own personal experience)

Ken

 

[MCM]

"Why is it that many so called "automobile enthusiasts" are so quick to point out the few flaws with the NSX lately? People complain about the lack of power, price of the car, etc"

Its because its been the same "great" car more or less for 15yrs and is 80 grand.
Its all part of the process. The trough at which folks will look back on in the future.
So few have sold the last several yrs its like its been gone for quite some time.
The auto world has turned their backs, and written the car off.
Its actually a great time to pick one up.
The car is something very special, just not being looked at or recognized right now.
This car will be much more popular down the road. Right now were in the NSX dark ages.
The only P car I would trade up to would be a Carrera GT, other than that
you can keep 'em all.
This happens to all great cars. Its the small window where they can still be found in great cond, and about as low priced as they are ever going to be.
(Aside from the new models)
The bulk of NSX's are now in the $30's & $40's.
A great time to be an enthusiast.
And a quick note to those who sell, please don't show up at a car show or track 10 yrs from now and tell the NSX owner (I used to have one just like it, should not have sold that one!) like 1/2 the folks at Muscle car events do today.
Take the current criticism and just smile knowing you own one of the best sports cars the world has ever seen. If you need a reminder, go out to the garage and stare at your NSX, Drive it on a winding road, then tell me how much better the turd shaped car mentioned above is. :wink:

One more thing, I was being chased down in city traffic last week by a Blond woman in a new 9 series P car. Thought for sure it was a new Silver Turbo.
Got on the FWY and there it was behind me, changing lanes trying to get ahead of me.
I thought, here we go. I will just let it pass.
I was just driving with the flow (@ about 80) and got lucky and stayed ahead. Then here it comes, changing lanes, in and out of traffic after about 5 miles of driving.
Pulls in front of me, and its a stock Boxter! I was almost in tears.
Something else to think about.................

 

[Russ]

Is the Cayman like a Boxter in that there's no hood? I always thought Boxters were lame just because you couldn't pop open a hood and admire the engine.

 

[Hugh]

The E46 M3 was the CSL running with MPSC's (R-compound tires) The Murcielago is *way* heavier than the *CSL* E46 M3

True, however the BMW makes 360hp and weighs 2855lbs. The Lambo makes 580HP and weighs 3637lbs giving it a 23% better power to weight ratio. (.35bhp/kg vs .27bhp/kg)

The Lambo's V12 will decimate the pathetic little BMW straight 6 on the straights at Nurburgring. On a short twisty track, I admit it might be close but at Nurburgring, you could put Hellen Keller in the Lambo and Michael Schumacher in the BMW and Helen will still kick his ass.

 

[2slow2speed]

True, however the BMW makes 360hp and weighs 2855lbs. The Lambo makes 580HP and weighs 3637lbs giving it a 23% better power to weight ratio. (.35bhp/kg vs .27bhp/kg)

The Lambo's V12 will decimate the pathetic little BMW straight 6 on the straights at Nurburgring. On a short twisty track, I admit it might be close but at Nurburgring, you could put Hellen Keller in the Lambo and Michael Schumacher in the BMW and Helen will still kick his ass.

Hmm... I think that you are underestimating how much weight affects the dynamics of the car, you can't toss a heavy car as easily as you can toss a ligther car (even at the ring with the high speed sweepers) look at the numbers for other cars like the GT3 and the GT3RS on that list, they are rated at 380bhp and 425bhp respectively and they are still faster than the Murcielago, I don't think that it's a fluke. Tires makes a huge difference as well.

Look at the laptimes that were posted by many of the British Mags for the Murcielago going against other cars and you will always see the Murcielago at the bottom of the pack.

Lamborghini being owned by Audi, probably had some some drivers familiar with the Ring taking the car out there, unlike the Enzo, Carrera GT, Saleen S7, Ford GT, the Murcielago was never designed with handling as the #1 priority.

Look at how poorly the Murcielago GT did at races against comparable 550GT's and the 360GT's, it's not all about power.

Again just my 2 cents.

Ken

 

[CerberusM5]

Well, if we want to compare up-to-date technology then how did it do on the ring compared to the NSX-R ??(just curious since you didn't list numbers)

This may have been said previously, but it is absurd to compare the NSX-R with the Cayman S. The NSX-R is no doubt a trick car, but if it were imported to the U.S., it probably would exceed $120,000. The NSX-R's closer competition is the GT3/RS, which would slay the NSX-R. Also, I highly doubt there are even a handful of NSX enthusiasts in the U.S. willing to step up and buy one, since there would be no cheap $800/month lease promotions on the NSX-R.

Back on topic, the Cayman will more than likely have better overall handling than the NSX-T. The current Boxster S is arguably better handling than the NSX and the Cayman will have even more aggressive suspension tuning and is 2.5 times more rigid than the Boxster S. Also, the interior of the Boxster S is a lot richer feeling utilizing higher quality materials than the NSX.

The fact is the Cayman circulates the Ring over 25 seconds faster than the NSX for $20,000+ less.

 

[jadkar]

I have to respectfully disagree with your second paragraph.

I've been on the track as a passenger in quite a few NSXs and I have experienced several passes on Boxsters, however I have NEVER seen footage or witness a Boxster S pass an NSX. I would love to see real world track times indicating that a Boxster S can produce faster lap times then a NSX.

Second, there is no way a decently equipt'd Cayman is going to come out 20K less then an NSX. You'll probably walk out the Porsche dealer with one for about 70K which is really right about where you would pick up an NSX for today. When is the last time you heard someone paying sticker for an NSX??

Last, I am very familiar with Porsche interiors. Like I said before I used to order tons of P-car interior crap when I was a Porsche parts manager. How can you possibly say that the interior is more "rich" looking then the NSX Have you seen the radio knobs?? Maybe not because they all fall off and get lost. What about the football like crappy covering they put on the dash and door panels. Also, look at some older ones when all the finishing paint starts peeling off the "chrome" plastic. Rich...I think that is so opposite from what it really is.

 

[AutoVation]

The Cayman's interior is very nice (at least in pics). Btw, what is SOS doing sponsoring it (check out the button under the air vents.) :wink:

One word: Chipotle :biggrin: That's just funny.

 

[CerberusM5]

I have to respectfully disagree with your second paragraph.

I've been on the track as a passenger in quite a few NSXs and I have experienced several passes on Boxsters, however I have NEVER seen footage or witness a Boxster S pass an NSX. I would love to see real world track times indicating that a Boxster S can produce faster lap times then a NSX.

Second, there is no way a decently equipt'd Cayman is going to come out 20K less then an NSX. You'll probably walk out the Porsche dealer with one for about 70K which is really right about where you would pick up an NSX for today. When is the last time you heard someone paying sticker for an NSX??

Last, I am very familiar with Porsche interiors. Like I said before I used to order tons of P-car interior crap when I was a Porsche parts manager. How can you possibly say that the interior is more "rich" looking then the NSX Have you seen the radio knobs?? Maybe not because they all fall off and get lost. What about the football like crappy covering they put on the dash and door panels. Also, look at some older ones when all the finishing paint starts peeling off the "chrome" plastic. Rich...I think that is so opposite from what it really is.

I don't know whether a 2005 Boxster S is quicker than the NSX or not, but it is clear the Cayman S is. The redesigned car is quite nice.

I am just comparing MSRP to MSRP and you are probably right that it will be $70k for a nicely optioned Cayman S.

Have you looked inside the new redesigned Boxster? They are light years ahead of the previous generation Boxster. If you were comparing the previous Boxster, I would agree with your comment that the NSX is nicer, but not the new one. It is essentially very similar to the 997 interior which is great IMHO. I personally like the new 997 interior, which compared to my 996 car is very luxurious and rich looking.

 

[AutoVation]

A big "No" for your second sentence. As I said the cayman was faster than the 996 but that is not the current 911. That is the 997 and this had a 8.05 on the ring.

Per this Autoweek article, "Porsche insiders say the Cayman has already lapped the legendary 14-mile German race circuit faster than the latest 911."

I think the most interesting part of the article are the engine choices, "According to an AutoWeek source, the initial Cayman model will feature a newly developed 3.4-liter, 295-hp version of Porsche’s four-valve-per-cylinder flat-six. A range-topping 305-hp Cayman S model will follow, positioned halfway between the 280-hp 3.2-liter Boxster S and the 325-hp, 3.6-liter 911 Carrera.Porsche will also launch a cheaper, 3.2-liter Cayman model patterned after the Boxster lineup."

 

[2slow2speed]

jadkar,

Just let your friend/co-worker who drives the Boxster drive your NSX, that might change his perspective of what he thinks about the car.

Had plenty of Boxter/BoxterS drivers sit as a passenger in my car and they are blown away by the ergonomics of the car, from the driving position, shifter positioning/feel, pedal positioning, etc, etc. For being a 15 year old design, it's still light years ahead of any Porsche Design as far as ergonomics goes. (987, 986, 997, 996, 993, etc, etc)

As far as other things:

Engine => NSX-T
Tranny/Shifter => NSX-T
Brakes => 986S/987S
Suspension => 986S/987S (more aggresive than the NSX-T, maybe the Zanardi might be comparable)
Ergonimics/Seating Postion/Shifter location-feel/etc/etc => NSX
Sound System => 986/987 (simply because it's a bit more modern)

Ken

BTW: Bench racers will always be bench racers, both you and your friend with the Boxster should take your cars to the track, I think that each one of you will respect the other's car a bit better

 

[MCM]

Cerb5 is bitter after loosing his ass with an NSX.
Will parade the "P" car till he gets tired of it & it gets old.
Will probably be one of the folks at the car show/track 10 yrs from now talking about the fact that he once owned one of these ground breaking cars.
The NSX is a drivers car. Nothing more, nothing less.
The world will catch on, but it will take time.
LOL LOL
Fire away!
I can take it.....................

 

[Hugh]

Also, the interior of the Boxster S is a lot richer feeling utilizing higher quality materials than the NSX.

You're joking right? The Boxster interior is junk. It feels like junk, it looks like junk and it breaks like the junk that it is.

I spent the last 2 months car shopping with a friend. We looked at Jags, Vettes, Boxters and Vipers. He was a stubborn nut to break but in the end he is the very happy new owner of TucAzNSX's 96 Red/Black car. In fact if you have an NSXPO brochure, it's the car pictured.

Anyway, every single Boxster we looked at had noticeable wear in the interior. The paint of the door handles was chipping away, many had broken console hinges and worn seats. No Boxster we looked at was more than 4 years old. My 93 NSX and Ted's 96 have flawless interiors that rival as new condition.

They are bargain basement, poor man Porsche wanna be posermobiles. The car is beyond ugly and handles like it looks. In fact you can pretty much count on one of these pitiful little German crapmobiles slamming into the wall at any HPDE that the owner is stupid enough to sign up for.

 

[nsxtasy]

The NSX-R's closer competition is the GT3/RS, which would slay the NSX-R.

Extremely unlikely. With equal drivers, I'd put my money on the NSX-R.

The fact is the Cayman circulates the Ring over 25 seconds faster than the NSX for $20,000+ less.

Oh, puh-leeeeeeease! Some of those numbers posted for Nurburgring lap times are just plain absurd. Do you REALLY think the 295-hp Cayman can pull faster lap times than the 430-hp 993 Turbo? Seriously? Come on, get real. Sure, there are some cars out there that are faster/better than the NSX. But from everything I've seen in the press about the Cayman, the Cayman won't even come close.

(I'd also like to know how anyone can quote lap times for a car that isn't in production yet...)

 

[NetViper]

Extremely unlikely. With equal drivers, I'd put my money on the NSX-R.

NSX-R vs GT3? No contest. The GT3 is much faster. 400HP, NA, way more TQ and similar weight.

 

[NetViper]

You're joking right? The Boxster interior is junk. It feels like junk, it looks like junk and it breaks like the junk that it is..

I think he is talking about the new Boxster S. The interior quality is far better.

I personally think the interior of the 996 and first gen boxsters are pretty awful. The NSX is much nicer IMO. If the NSX interior had full leather and NAV/CD it would still be one of the nicest interior on the market IMO.