Any "Agreed Value" Insurance Policies That Will Let Me Daily-Drive My NSX?

[Mac Attack]

I've had Hagerty in the past and I currently have Grundy agreed value policies for my NSX.

Now I would like the option of daily driving it when the weather is nice. I can't do that with Hagerty or Grundy. Due to all of the custom mods on my car I really need an agreed value policy to be made whole if something happens to it. I currently have a $60k policy through Grundy. I don't remember what I pay a year but it is reasonable.

Does anyone know of one please?

If they don't exist, has anyone had good luck with the next best thing - stated value policies?

Thanks. I've looked through a lot of recent insurance threads but didn't see anything about my situation. I apologize if it's been discussed.

Dave

 

[vivanshah]

i've seen some people state that grundy allows for it, but in my discussions with them i've never found that to be the case. Your problem is the main reason i'm still on normal insurance as I usually drive to work at least once a week.

 

[Yinzer]

Haven't really thought about it till now, but has anybody ever questioned why standard insurer replaciement values on NSx's are still way under market, even after they've held their value with virtually zero depreciation since 2000? It doesn't seem like insurance carriers are scared to pay out, seeing many commercials for replacement up to even one model year newer with some carriers. Just verified the value of mine at NADA, which I was told is what my insurer would reference. Values look no different than 4-5 years ago if I remember correctly, and at $42k retail, I consider that 10K less than what I could sell it for within 48 hours in a private sale. Maybe it's just the nature of things, where insurers pay more attention to high-volume newer cars than very low volume 20-year-old cars. If NADA values would pop up just 20%, that could make them so much more compelling.

 

[TomCat]

I use regular insurance when my NSX hit/totaled and was "made whole" (not sentimental/inflated but acceptable) by the at fault driver's insurance. The settlement took a little back and forth! Had it been MY fault, the outcome would not have been as generous. My very reputable insurance company's logic was that IF I wanted a payout to reflect a "special vehicle" with increasing value...I should have insured it and restricted my driving/use like an appreciating asset. However, since the other guy was at fault...he had to make me whole.

I had asked a couple of "special insurance companies" a few yes/no questions...and wound up just insuring the car as a regular vehicle.
1) I drive it to work when my daily driver is in for maintenance
2) Same as above but divert 5 miles to pick up dry cleaning.
3) I drive to Cars and Coffee once a month.
4) Same as above BUT I detour 5 miles to pick up dry cleaning.
5) I drive it to AutoZone 5 miles from home.
6) Same as above but I divert 3 miles to visit a "car bud's" house.
7) I drive to same AutoZone (which is co-located/adjacent parking lot with a Home Depot) and after AutoZone I move the car 200 feet to the Home Depot to pick up some lightbulbs.
I can not recall how many yes/no/maybes BUT I do recall the last two were "NOs".

 

[Yinzer]

I use regular insurance when my NSX hit/totaled and was "made whole" (not sentimental/inflated but acceptable) by the at fault driver's insurance. The settlement took a little back and forth! Had it been MY fault, the outcome would not have been as generous. My very reputable insurance company's logic was that IF I wanted a payout to reflect a "special vehicle" with increasing value...I should have insured it and restricted my driving/use like an appreciating asset. However, since the other guy was at fault...he had to make me whole.

Tom, sorry about your accident. How long ago was it?

How did your being made whole to a value that, I assume, was above NADA and more accurate to what a current buy/sell price would be, come about? Automatically, or from active work by you or an atty or even your carrier? Just curious as I weigh staying with std insurance vs. potentially going to stated-value insurance, which would be roughly 2x the cost of my std insurance.

Don't know why I find it funny that the other guy's insurer would pay out a higher replacement number for an accident deemed their customer's fault, but someone's insurer would "penalize" their customer with a payout that's a fraction of a car's value if the accident was their customer's fault. Unless this involved lots of behind the scenes work by your carrier to not only limit their payouts of any type but also go above and beyond for their customer whose accident was not his fault (but then turn their back on the same customer with a lowball payout if an accident was the fault of their customer -- you know, the guy who's paid them thousands of dollars over the years).

I've not been thru a big accident like this thankfully, to see how this can work firsthand. Some carriers clearly are promoting replacement cars that are 1 model year newer and/or 15k miles less than a totaled car, my assumption being that they receive better than actual replacement value on a new car, with a newer car with less miles. Maybe I'm oversimplifying? There must be restrictions to this, either by model year, value, fault, etc.

Still begs the question why NADA guides trail behind actual selling values, whether we're talking about them being used for insurance replacement values or just when using the guide in general. They're clearly off-market if used by potential buyers or sellers. May just be that a low-volume car like the NSX doesn't receive any work put towards it by the actuarial/estimator folk who provide input to guides like NADA. Anyone know? Not opinionate, but know?

 

[TomCat]

Tom, sorry about your accident. How long ago was it?

Dec 2012

How did your being made whole to a value that, I assume, was above NADA and more accurate to what a current buy/sell price would be, come about? Automatically, or from active work by you or an atty or even your carrier? Just curious as I weigh staying with std insurance vs. potentially going to stated-value insurance, which would be roughly 2x the cost of my std insurance.

It seems that I worked it UP a few thousand by showing receipts for modifications (Hennessey Stage IV) and cost of new wheels/tires

Don't know why I find it funny that insurers would pay out a higher replacement number for an accident deemed not their fault, but would "penalize" with a payout that's a fraction of a car's value if the accident is your fault...

I think my "arguments" to my insurance company would not sway the decision/payout because they said that I should have told them that my car was more valuable than a "regular" car and they would have either upped my premium to support the added value or they would have suggested I get specialty insurance.

Some carriers clearly are promoting replacement cars that are 1 model year newer and/or 15k miles less than a totaled car, my assumption being that they receive better than actual replacement value on a new car, with a newer car with less miles....

Those offers/options come at a cost I'm sure...insurance is a business and if they risk a higher payout they will value (and charge you) for that risk.

Maybe I'm oversimplifying? There must be restrictions to this, either by model year, value, fault, etc..

I think you are listening to the marketing/sales without reading the fine print. I understand that you can insure (almost) anything for any (agreed) value...but the insurer will require up-front payment/premium to cover the risk/payout

Still begs the question why NADA guides trail behind actual selling values, whether we're talking about them being used for insurance replacement values or just when using the guide in general.

NADA (or whatever your insurance company uses...you can and should ask your insurer the basis for comparison/payout) has no special passion for the NSX like we do...the "market/public" allows them (or whatever standard) to be the basis.

They're clearly off-market if used by potential buyers or sellers. May just be that a low-volume car like the NSX doesn't receive any work put towards it by the actuarial/estimator folk who provide input to guides like NADA. Anyone know? Not opinionate, but know?

I watch this forum and the only time two people agree on a price/value is the exact time/place when a car exchanges hands...all other values are speculative.

 

[Yinzer]

NADA (or whatever your insurance company uses...you can and should ask your insurer the basis for comparison/payout) has no special passion for the NSX like we do...the "market/public" allows them (or whatever standard) to be the basis.

I watch this forum and the only time two people agree on a price/value is the exact time/place when a car exchanges hands...all other values are speculative.

Thanks for the responses! I verified with my carrier long ago that NADA was their yardstick, which made me investigate their values.

I disagree though about passion for these cars possibly clouding any discussion here. I agree that this site tends to attract passionate owners with high-value modded or all-OEM examples for sure, but I interpret your response as suggesting that sales as often noted & discussed on Prime are high within the average NSX marketplace and would be considered the minority or outliers amongst a much larger number of sales in the general market/public. And, even though those values would be considered astonishingly low to folk here, they would support the NADA values (or vice versa, are what NADA values are based upon). In other words, I personally think the cross section of NSX's amongst passionate prime folk is not very far off the mark for the typical non-Prime-NSX out in the wild, but I acknowledge that this is an assumption.

Assuming NADA excludes salvage/branded titles, $24k low retail for a 1991 would have to be for a real dog, otherwise a $24k NSX is pretty unheard of, at least to me, yet NADA has some data points apparently to support going down that low. And $40k for a high retail '91 seems to be much too low a ceiling for even a ~60k mile well-kept & maintained but run of the mill clean '91. Then you have Hagerty values which put a FAIR condition '91 at <strike>$48k</strike>
$28.5k, <strike>which I might argue as being a bit high if you read their definition of FAIR</strike>, up to $77.1 k for concours. I'd say Hagerty is much more accurate, but then you really pay for that potential value benefit. (this paragraph was edited - I mistakenly initially quoted values for a 2001 which is between $48k to $90k+ on Hagerty).

Until someone steps in to educate us: I'll just have to remain curious over why NADA values, which my insurer would use should my NSX be totaled, are generally too low vs what I think is reality, or encompass too narrow a slice of NSX conditions. Or maybe that narrow slice is on purpose, but with no provided caveat to warn the user. I'll assume that either this gap to reality is known and is just a part of how insurance works, or that NADA has no idea of this gap and updated NSX values are just not kept up with, being a low-volume car. Haven't really looked into Edmunds or KBB nor made myself aware if insurers use them for metrics. But clearly a NADA range of $24-40k and a Hagerty range of $28k-$77k begs some questions. Maybe the only answer is: life's not fair, insurance isn't fair, and the range for a '91 is at least $24-77k across various some valuators, so pick the insurance company with range you and cost you are willing to live with & pay for, and accept the fact that NADA's range is only a partial slice of real sales.

 

[DocL]

If you really want to know the true value of your car, look at the Manheim sales results. You guys are all lucky that the retail values have risen.

 

[Yinzer]

If you really want to know the true value of your car, look at the Manheim sales results. You guys are all lucky that the retail values have risen.

I know nothing of this. Sounds like it could be interesting. Can you share more info? Are these somewhere online to see recent auction sale values of daily-drivers at fast-paced high-volume auto auctions (and not the Mecum Hollywood high dollar champagne & young blonde girlfriend sitting next to me auctions)?

This?

https://www.manheim.com/

 

[Stephen@NCAutoUSA]

This is a great thread since I'm in the process of looking for new insurance.

 

[Yinzer]

I think my "arguments" to my insurance company would not sway the decision/payout because they said that I should have told them that my car was more valuable than a "regular" car and they would have either upped my premium to support the added value or they would have suggested I get specialty insurance.

Thanks for your responses again. So are you saying you have standard insurance but they mentioned something about agreed value options? Is making me wonder if there's some hybrid option with agreed-value but less restrictive use policies. Who do/did you have, if you don't mind?

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If they don't exist, has anyone had good luck with the next best thing - stated value policies?

Ah, this question was asked already!

 

[TomCat]

I disagree though about passion for these cars possibly clouding any discussion here. I agree that this site tends to attract passionate owners with high-value modded or all-OEM examples for sure, but I interpret your response as suggesting that sales as often noted & discussed on Prime are high within the average NSX marketplace and would be considered the minority or outliers amongst a much larger number of sales in the general market/public.

No problem but you misinterpret my suggestion. When I found out my local dealership "maintained" about 10 NSXs and the only local 3 NSXs that I know (through the forum) and another 2-3 I met at Cars and Coffee are not using the dealership...it suggested to me that the forum is a sub-set of all NSXs and (since I am a member of a couple of similar forums) I extrapolated that the forums represent a fraction of the total car market/transactions.

The enthusiasm/passion can run both ways...like when someone advertises elsewhere a "rare collectable" NSX for hundreds of thousands of dollars (and the forum pick up on this) OR when someone else will pay premium dollar for an NSX with fat fives and original tires (and a working cassette deck)...and the snubs a "tastefully" modified and well maintained vehicle.

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Thanks for your responses again. So are you saying you have standard insurance but they mentioned something about agreed value options? Is making me wonder if there's some hybrid option with agreed-value but less restrictive use policies. Who do/did you have, if you don't mind?

As I recall, USAA (my carrier) offered an option of specialty car insurance for another car of mine when I inquired and was concerned about coverage.

 

[DocL]

I know nothing of this. Sounds like it could be interesting. Can you share more info? Are these somewhere online to see recent auction sale values of daily-drivers at fast-paced high-volume auto auctions (and not the Mecum Hollywood high dollar champagne & young blonde girlfriend sitting next to me auctions)?

This?

https://www.manheim.com/

Yes. I have seen the wholesale values and they are nowhere near the current retail prices. When the NSX bubble bursts a lot of people are going to take a bath. It's happened with a lot of cars and the NSX isn't immune to it. Look at what happened to the Ferrari 365 Daytona. At one point they were going for $1mil, but settled down to the $600k-$700k range.

Keeping things in line for this tread, the best insurance to get is one with a company that understands how rare the NSX is. You probably know my history with my NSX getting totaled out, and because I had Grundy I was cut a check within one week for the stated value. No questions asked.

 

[Yinzer]

Any &quot;Agreed Value&quot; Insurance Policies That Will Let Me Daily-Drive My NSX?

No problem but you misinterpret my suggestion. When I found out my local dealership "maintained" about 10 NSXs and the only local 3 NSXs that I know (through the forum) and another 2-3 I met at Cars and Coffee are not using the dealership...it suggested to me that the forum is a sub-set of all NSXs and (since I am a member of a couple of similar forums) I extrapolated that the forums represent a fraction of the total car market/transactions.

Haha, hoping to not beat a dead horse but you mean you weren't suggesting that we shouldn't assume Prime values are market-average since there are probably more non-Prime sales than on-Prime sales and at values much less than what we see here and more inline with NADA values that don't reflect values of most Prime members' cars? I just think (possibly very mistakenly) that the subset of owners here with their enthusiast vulture eyes has a pretty good awareness of the market. I just can't see five well-maintained 50k mile 91's selling for $32k thru mostly offline private sales w/o anyone here ever knowing about them for every one $45k sold here. Or I could be so wrong, it's all good. I'm just looking for that policy under $1000/year for a replacement value at least 40% above the high end of NADA while not limiting me to parades and ice cream runs. $42k high value at NADA for my 19k mile 2-owner non-modded '93 is a joke and way out of line with market, on or off Prime.

PS please don't think I'm being a smart alec in any way with my responses. I'm learning a lot from your posts in this thread which are super helpful viewpoints, thanks again.

 

[Yinzer]

Yes. I have seen the wholesale values and they are nowhere near the current retail prices. When the NSX bubble bursts a lot of people are going to take a bath. It's happened with a lot of cars and the NSX isn't immune to it. Look at what happened to the Ferrari 365 Daytona. At one point they were going for $1mil, but settled down to the $600k-$700k range.

I looked around that site at lunch. Looks like you need to be in auto sales to access auction prices? But is that even an accurate comparison to pull in wholesale values which I thought by definition are way under retail?

I agree there's a bubble. $85k black 94 on BaT? Nutty. But luckily losing 20% on an NSX you speculated on isn't as wallet damaging as the 365 example!

 

[Mac Attack]

Keeping things in line for this tread, the best insurance to get is one with a company that understands how rare the NSX is. You probably know my history with my NSX getting totaled out, and because I had Grundy I was cut a check within one week for the stated value. No questions asked.

I currently have an agreed value Grundy policy. I've previously had an agreed value Hagerty policy. However, both of them explicitly say no daily-driving duties... not even to Home Depot. Basically, don't use it for anything you can drive your other vehicles for. If I drove it to work and totaled the car 50 feet within my company property, the police report would note the time/location. In this scenario, Grundy could deny coverage as I violated the terms of our contract. I don't want to be put in that situation on a $60k investment. That takes a lot of the joy out of driving the thing if you're worried about it.

I would rather take a chance driving it more frequently with a normal policy and maybe missing out on a $10k claim difference (based on the adjuster).

Like Yinzer also asked above, I am trying to find out if there are any "hybrid" policies and if anyone here uses them.

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Hmmm, I don't know why this didn't pop up in my many searches before, but Safeco (by Liberty Mutual) appears to have a policy that might work for me. I need to call them Monday and ask a few questions:

http://www.safeco.com/classic-car-insurance/features

Discovered through Nerdwallet:
https://www.nerdwallet.com/blog/insurance/best-affordable-classic-car-insurance/

 

[DocL]

At www.grundy.com under the "How can I use my car?" it states that "...It is even OK if occasionally you drive your collector car to work to show it off to friends. However, your collector car must not be used as a daily driver..." I interpret this to mean that on a few occasions it is ok to drive it to work. I did so in the past, but not more than three or four times a month. If you are going to be using your NSX for daily use, then obviously this type of insurance is not for you.

I am probably one of the few people here who can speak from experience, having been insured with Grundy, and having made a total loss claim.

 

[Mac Attack]

Interesting. Thanks for pointing that out. I now have a screen capture of that webpage!

Unfortunately, all of these places must have a few inexperienced people working there. I need to check the fine print in my policy, but I certainly remember two separate Grundy phone reps telling me not to use it for daily-driving activities. Both Grundy and Hagerty reps flat-out told me not to drive it to work or shopping.

I'm sorry you had a total loss claim. Did it happen at your residence or some other place? If it were some other place, did Grundy give you any trouble?

Thanks.

 

[Yinzer]

@DocL, Thanks for pointing us to Grundy. I recall looking at them in the past and not being enthusiastic with the results. But just ran an online quote with an agreed value of $60,000, $500 deductible, and maximum coverage and I am very impressed with the number. Less than $1000 a year and not too much more than what I'm paying currently for standard insurance. I have no reason to believe my driving habits will change and Grundy's restrictions fit right into them. I will be looking more into this tomorrow or Monday. At first glance, this looks very promising.

At www.grundy.com under the "How can I use my car?"

I couldn't find that easily at first - For anybody else looking for this info: unless I'm overlooking an easier way to get to it, this is found by first clicking "Collector Cars" at the very bottom of the page.

How Can I Use My Car?

Grundy wants you to enjoy your car, not keep track of mileage like some programs with limitations. Therefore, we give you unlimited miles for pleasure driving and in collector car-oriented activities. It is even OK if occasionally you drive your collector car to work to show it off to friends. However, your collector car must not be used as a daily driver. We require you and all licensed drivers in your household to have a modern car for everyday use.
When you have your car at home, it must be kept in an enclosed, secure garage when not in use. If you are away from home on extended outings your car is fully protected if you must park it outside, for example in a hotel parking lot. Grundy coverage includes Trip Interruption that reimburses you for hotel and repair costs in the event of a breakdown, and we also reimburse you for towing and labor charges up to $250. You can count on Grundy as you cruise.

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Yes. I have seen the wholesale values and they are nowhere near the current retail prices.

Are you able and/or willing to share what you've seen since it seems membership there isn't for the public? Guess I'd like to avoid a thread jack or parallel discussion in this thread, so feel free to share via PM if you're willing, unless there are some terms of condition that prohibit sharing data, etc. Thanks either way.

 

[Wavey1]

I have my '92 insured through Leyland West. It's an agreed-value policy and there are basically no restrictions. Tons of extra coverage too, including all glass, emergency road service, towing, etc. I don't daily-drive it but I could; I do drive it whenever I want to. Very reasonable premium too.

Leyland West has been awesome to deal with. I totaled my '88 Carrera with the same kind of policy, and discovered I had an "inflation rider" I wasn't even aware of, so the settlement was actually for more than the agreed value.

 

[TomCat]

At www.grundy.com under the "How can I use my car?" it states that "...It is even OK if occasionally you drive your collector car to work to show it off to friends. However, your collector car must not be used as a daily driver..." I interpret this to mean that on a few occasions it is ok to drive it to work. I did so in the past, but not more than three or four times a month. If you are going to be using your NSX for daily use, then obviously this type of insurance is not for you.

I am probably one of the few people here who can speak from experience, having been insured with Grundy, and having made a total loss claim.

And I had a total loss with "regular" insurance. So we probably have the spectrum covered.

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I would rather take a chance driving it more frequently with a normal policy and maybe missing out on a $10k claim difference (based on the adjuster).

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This was the same conclusion I came to back when I did my research.

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I have my '92 insured through Leyland West. It's an agreed-value policy and there are basically no restrictions. Tons of extra coverage too, including all glass, emergency road service, towing, etc. I don't daily-drive it but I could; I do drive it whenever I want to. Very reasonable premium too.

Leyland West has been awesome to deal with. I totaled my '88 Carrera with the same kind of policy, and discovered I had an "inflation rider" I wasn't even aware of, so the settlement was actually for more than the agreed value.

This sounds like an option!

 

[Mac Attack]

That does sound like a good option Wavey1. Thank you!

 

[DocL]

And I had a total loss with "regular" insurance. So we probably have the spectrum covered.

Absolutely.

It's good for others to hear about our experiences with a full claim against an insurance company. All too often we hear about nightmare stories, our experiences should help others make an educated decision. I never encourage purchasing the wrong insurance coverage, and I wouldn't want anyone to risk not being covered. It's not worth saving a few hundred, or even a thousand, dollars to potentially risk not being covered if the usage isn't declared properly.

 

[GBL1]

I used to have Chubb Indemnity on my '81 Ferrari 308. They gave me "agreed upon" total-out value (within "reason" - vague), but allowed me to name my price (a little north of market value at the time)....AND they gave me a fixed rental allotment of $3,000.00 for a rental car if my 308 was in the body shop.

I could spend that $3K on a basic Chevy rental at $25 per day for four months....or, I could blow it on renting an exotic until the $3K ran out, but then I'd be without a rental car. Since I had a daily driver, I'd go rent whatever I wanted, drive it until the $3K ran out, then revert to my daily driver!

I got to rent some really cool cars!

Check into Chubb Indemnity.

.

 

[DreamPowered]

I can help a bit with the agreed value vs reg insurance.
I used to work for one of the bigger insurance companies that happend to suck alot. But most "regular" insurance companies use a fair market value to determine what it costs to replace a totalled veh. They basically search a 5 mile range and get the average price of however many cars they can find that match your mileage and condition prior to being totalled.
With that in mind, earlier this year I rasied my Grundy policy from 45 to 60k agreed value and went up like $ 50 more than I was paying before. I believe the maximum milegeage for most collector car policies is 3k miles a year.
Unfortunately I have only managed 700 miles each the last 2 years, due to work and family obligations (No I am not selling).
Any questions post up or feel free to pm me.
Yinz you still have my # , Call or text if I can help