Sakebomb garage Ohlin DFV coilovers

[Rainman]

I’m in the market for coilovers. Tempted to go with KW V3 because it’s the tested and ready to go solution. However I have always been curious about the Ohlins due to how compliant they are at low speeds. Not much info to be found on NSX applications mainly because it seems nobody until recently really made a kit. Sakebomb garage’s s2000 Ohlin setup is very well reviewed. Anybody have info or thoughts on their kit for the NSX? I’m guessing not since it’s at pre sale stage but would be good to hear people’s thoughts.

http://www.sakebombgarage.com/fpspec-ohlins-dfv-nsx/

 

[mochanges]

This is from Dave Muy who owns the car Sakebomb developed the coilovers on. He has the first set:

"Fabulous time at Laguna Seca yesterday. My first time on the track with the NSX. I used the track day to fully test the Sakebomb Garage FPspec Ohlins. The suspension is spectacular on the track as it is on the street. I decided to keep the settings the same as Street, medium stiff. The car is very smooth, composed and very predictable on the track. Any understeer can be corrected with the throttle, oversteer is there when I need it. The turn in is smooth. No snap steer tendency feeling as in my S2000 when going into heavy braking corners, and powering out. I took it easy going 70% most of the day because she needed to come home safe in one piece but I still was able to clock 1:51. There’s plenty left to bring that lap time lower if I track with her regularly, I suspect low 1:40s is attainable. I drove home in traffic for 2.5 hours in perfect comfort, no rough or jarring feeling at slow or at any speed. Such a fun day! So happy I did the upgrade to Ohlins."

 

[Rainman]

This is from Dave Muy who owns the car Sakebomb developed the coilovers on. He has the first set:

"Fabulous time at Laguna Seca yesterday. My first time on the track with the NSX. I used the track day to fully test the Sakebomb Garage FPspec Ohlins. The suspension is spectacular on the track as it is on the street. I decided to keep the settings the same as Street, medium stiff. The car is very smooth, composed and very predictable on the track. Any understeer can be corrected with the throttle, oversteer is there when I need it. The turn in is smooth. No snap steer tendency feeling as in my S2000 when going into heavy braking corners, and powering out. I took it easy going 70% most of the day because she needed to come home safe in one piece but I still was able to clock 1:51. There’s plenty left to bring that lap time lower if I track with her regularly, I suspect low 1:40s is attainable. I drove home in traffic for 2.5 hours in perfect comfort, no rough or jarring feeling at slow or at any speed. Such a fun day! So happy I did the upgrade to Ohlins."QUOTE]

Interesting, where did you find that?

 

[Mac Attack]

Performance Shock, Inc is also developing a set for my car. I've sent them my old coilovers for measurement, along with nsx-specific motion ratios, unsprung weights, and weight distribution. They have the knowledge and tools to adjust the internals, unlike others that would just take the universal damper and slap some springs on it. Also, they are working to maximize suspension travel for my lift cups.

PSi is pretty busy right now with the start of the racing season and still has yet to give me a final price, but it should be close to the Sakebomb offering.

I've never driven on DFVs, but I have driven NSXs with the KW V3s. The Ohlins are more expensive for a reason.

 

[Rainman]

Was this on the track or on the street? What differences did you notice between the KW and the Ohlin?

 

[RYU]

Was this on the track or on the street? What differences did you notice between the KW and the Ohlin?

I can't comment on NSX KW V3 vs NSX SBG Ohlins R&T but I can comment on the NSX KW V3 vs. NSX JRZ RS Pro. I can also comment on the Ohlins R&T on my S2000.

While the V3s are well tuned to the NSX... I feel it's still a mediocre damper. It's a mediocre damper but tuned to the NSX - key point. The tuning is very important and I feel it is a good value for what it is. Billy Johnson has also provided baseline adjustment settings for the out-of-the-box V3 which is hugely helpful. In contrast, a JRZ is a better damper that has a wide range. This damper can be pretty horrible if not properly tuned and setup to EACH INDIVIDUAL NSX. The JRZ is a better damper than the KW V3 in my opinion but it takes time to get there. The valving is more accurate and the range of adjustment is much greater.

The S2000 on the Ohlins R&T were mediocre-to-bad mainly for one reason. The suspension travel in the rear was severely compromised (i.e. SHORT travel). For all big bumps and for most medium sized bumps it was the bumpstop doing the work. I spoke to Ohlins at SEMA about this and they didn't exactly deny it but i'm sure they did this to meet the needs of the hellafllush/stance crowd. The damping tuning while it was in the damping travel range, it wasn't too bad but obviously I couldn't take it to its limits because it would hit the bumpstops. It didn't feel as sophisticated as the JRZs. The benefit, in my mind, is it's a 1-way tuned system and is fairly idiot proof to use. I think the "DFV" valving is a bit of a gimick. The TTX is more JRZ level IMO.

From what I hear of the Ohlins R&T for the NSX from SBG is well tuned. I have not actually driven on them myself so I can't comment personally. Would like to try them though.
.

 

[Rainman]

Thank you RYU for your insightful input.
I guess the compromise I have to pick is dampener quality vs tuning. A tuned OOB JRZ setup sounds like the best of both worlds if that even makes sense.

I honestly don’t have the time and expertise to tune a suspension setup. Not at this stage of my life. That’s the appeal of the V3 solution. I know the dampener is mediocre but I suspect that’s only in comparison to the JRZ. And it’s 1700 less to boot. Although I would be going with the JRZ RS2 so more like 800.

At the same time for the V3 I assume when you mean tuned by KW it is more than just the compression and rebound settings? What does KW/SBG do to tune the dampener to the NSX?

 

[Rainman]

I can't comment on NSX KW V3 vs NSX SBG Ohlins R&T but I can comment on the NSX KW V3 vs. NSX JRZ RS Pro. I can also comment on the Ohlins R&T on my S2000.

While the V3s are well tuned to the NSX... I feel it's still a mediocre damper. It's a mediocre damper but tuned to the NSX - key point. The tuning is very important and I feel it is a good value for what it is. Billy Johnson has also provided baseline adjustment settings for the out-of-the-box V3 which is hugely helpful. In contrast, a JRZ is a better damper that has a wide range. This damper can be pretty horrible if not properly tuned and setup to EACH INDIVIDUAL NSX. The JRZ is a better damper than the KW V3 in my opinion but it takes time to get there. The valving is more accurate and the range of adjustment is much greater.

The S2000 on the Ohlins R&T were mediocre-to-bad mainly for one reason. The suspension travel in the rear was severely compromised (i.e. SHORT travel). For all big bumps and for most medium sized bumps it was the bumpstop doing the work. I spoke to Ohlins at SEMA about this and they didn't exactly deny it but i'm sure they did this to meet the needs of the hellafllush/stance crowd. The damping tuning while it was in the damping travel range, it wasn't too bad but obviously I couldn't take it to its limits because it would hit the bumpstops. It didn't feel as sophisticated as the JRZs. The benefit, in my mind, is it's a 1-way tuned system and is fairly idiot proof to use. I think the "DFV" valving is a bit of a gimick. The TTX is more JRZ level IMO.

From what I hear of the Ohlins R&T for the NSX from SBG is well tuned. I have not actually driven on them myself so I can't comment personally. Would like to try them though.
.

Also when you say a dampener is not as sophisticated what does that mean

 

[Mac Attack]

Was this on the track or on the street? What differences did you notice between the KW and the Ohlin?

Sorry - I couldn't reply to this until the thread code error was fixed.

I've driven two f80 M3's on our crappy midwestern streets recently - One had KW V3's, and the other had Ohlins DFV's. Both kits were set up on the softer side that I prefer for street driving, and I think the maximum difference between spring rates was around 100 lb/in (forget which one was softer). Same tire sidewall and type of tire. I would spend the extra ~$1k for the DFVs in a heartbeat after comparing the two. The ride was way more compliant than the KW V3's and there were no abnormal noises (there is an unusually high number of V3's that make noises - even on this forum). I didn't witness it, but the adjustment range of the DFVs allows them to be significantly stiffened for the occasional track day from everyone I've heard that has them.

I see the Ohlins single adjustment as a plus - Keeps it simple and the dampener capabilities are probably better than 95% of the NSX driver capabilities on this forum.

The KWs are steel, the Ohlins are full aluminum and therefore reduce the unsprung mass. The KWs are built in Germany, the Ohlins DFVs in Japan.

There is one drawback to the DFVs - They need to be rebuilt every ~30-40k miles of street driving. I've never heard of any leaks or issues if they are maintained correctly. Search on here for KW V3 leaks. More than a handful here have had leakers with just a few thousand miles.

I originally wanted Penske dampers with regressive compressive dampening. However, that was not to be for a few reasons....

 

[Mac Attack]

The S2000 on the Ohlins R&T were mediocre-to-bad mainly for one reason. The suspension travel in the rear was severely compromised (i.e. SHORT travel). For all big bumps and for most medium sized bumps it was the bumpstop doing the work. I spoke to Ohlins at SEMA about this and they didn't exactly deny it but i'm sure they did this to meet the needs of the hellafllush/stance crowd. The damping tuning while it was in the damping travel range, it wasn't too bad but obviously I couldn't take it to its limits because it would hit the bumpstops. It didn't feel as sophisticated as the JRZs. The benefit, in my mind, is it's a 1-way tuned system and is fairly idiot proof to use. I think the "DFV" valving is a bit of a gimick. The TTX is more JRZ level IMO.

That's my main concern with an Ohlins NSX application - the limited rear suspension travel. To make a smooth compliant ride, you need "adequate" suspension travel matched to the damper and springs.... Sakebomb has their NSX application that appears to have at least one review (and it's positive), but I wanted a second opinion from a trusted race shop. It's being evaluated now.

It's interesting to hear your sophisticated comment about the JRZ's. JRZ has no unique dampening design - you choose the standard linear, digressive, a combination of those, or progressive shim designs. The progressive design mimics Acura's original HPV dampeners on the NSX :smile: JRZ's are nice because you can build them any way you want... like Penske, Moton, MCS, etc. You just need a knowledgeable suspension expert to guide you based on your intended application and a lot of time fine-tuning them. They are a great quality product.

The DFV is no gimick though and even Acura uses a similar concept (Amplitude Reactive Dampener) on their latest rides. The best mix of comfort and performance for most of the crowd....

Bottom line is that the V3's are a great setup for $2300. Is an extra $1200 worth it for a better street/track ride? That's obviously very subjective. For me, witnessing the comparison with M3's made up my mind to try and get the DFVs.

 

[Rainman]

I believe the SBG ohlins are 3900? Is there a kit that goes for less? It’s more than the KW but also includes top hats and bearings. Has there been any comments the SBG ohlins are noisy because of the stiffer top mount? Which makes me also wonder if the iLift system is compatible with the ohlins.

Good point about the rear travel concerns, will be good to hear more reviews. Ryu were your ohlins on the s2k from SBG or similar? I also get the impression from Ryu that even if the rear travel was sufficient that the Ohlin RT would still be at best mediocre.

The F80 comparison is interesting, I assume both the ohlins and kw kits were tuned for the F80 by ohlins and kw respectively. Nothing against SBG but is it fair to expect them to match a dampener tunes by ohlins ?

I’m finding most of the online reviews match what Mac said, Ohlin DFV is more compliant at higher spring rates than the V3. The simplicity of adjustment is very attractive as well.

 

[Mac Attack]

$3900 is about right with new top hats/bearings. If you use your old rubber ones you can save about $400 (which is what I plan to do), making them around $3500. As the $2300 KW cost doesn't include top hats either, it's really about a $1200 difference.

I don't want to speak for iLift, but pretty much any lift kit will take up about an inch of shock travel, further reducing what little we have in the rear. That's another concern I have, since I have a lift kit for the front AND rear that I need for diffuser clearance on the street.

You'll find that unless it's a common application, Ohlins doesn't tune a dampener itself - they refer you to independent experts to assist you with developing a special low-volume application. Ohlins corporate referred me to PSi in CA. I can't speak to what SBG does, but I do know that Ohlins recently (within the past 1.5 years) released a longer generic dampener to give some applications more shock stroke (like the S2k in the rear). Therefore, I'm pretty confident in saying that any Ohlins S2k kit that is more than two years old had the inferior shorter rear shock travel.

Sadly, I've been on the fence evaluating the DFVs and regressive Penske's for about two years now.... The DFVs sounded like a great complement to my NSX, but until they added another dampener with longer shock stroke that I could use in the rear, I didn't want to take a chance.

 

[jwmelvin]

Dave, once your application is sorted, is that the kind of thing PSi will provide as more of an off-the-shelf solution for others? I'm very interested in how this goes for you, as I will definitely want to replace the dampers on my car eventually. My experience with custom-valved Bilstein racing shocks in my track car has me convinced that a high-quality shock with appropriate tuning is more important than adjustability. Adjusting damping should be more to tweak balance during corner entry/exit, not an overall balance control. Soft springs with a firm damper still results in an (undesirable) extended weight-transfer period; it's part of the problem with making a car good for both street and track.

What spring rates are you going for? I currently have 10k/8k and it's harsh but I believe that's largely due to the low-quality dampers. Even with good dampers, I might prefer 8k/6k springs on the street. My NSX will likely always be focused on street use, so I'm happy with slightly softer springs.

 

[RYU]

Sorry this might be a bit of a rushed reply. Traveling at the moment but for fun which is NICE

I forgot to mention the most important aspect when purchasing dampers at these levels IMO... Do not underestimate the level of support available for them. I decided on JRZs a few yrs ago because of the available local support. The support I've received such as periodic dyno tuning/matching and rebuilding has been nothing short of phenomenal. Kudos to Frank Chen, one of the original distributors since the 90s. I originally was very close to purchasing the 'Super Ohlins' line from Japan but the lack of support and uncertain communication (I had to purchase thru a friend) got me worried for the long run. Support, support, support.. any of these dampers can make you happy with the proper support IMO. No surprise, as KW becomes more of a consumer brand, i've heard their support/warranty has taken a turn for the worse as compared to before.

I'll have to qualify that my DFV experience has only been on the S2K and BRZ and both were Ohlins tuned and Ohlins off-the-shelf SKUs. I noticed no 'specialness' about the damper tune. The range wasn't all that deep. Thinking back, perhaps i'm confusing sophistication with the inherent limitations of a 1-way setup. Granted they both suffer from extremely poor droop travel in the rear. So take that with a grain of salt. I suppose the DFV can shine when truly abused. I certainly can attest that the JRZs are noticeably affected by heat. I have also heard from trusted sources that the precision machining of the valving, shims, etc.. plays a role. My JRZs are dyno matched fairly well so I didn't care from that standpoint. I'll take Dave's impressions over mine on the DFV at the end of the day.

Ultimately, I think a MFG tune will get you about 70-80% there. That's assuming they tune the dampers to begin with and in doing so they have to pick a set of criteria for their ideal target audience... who knows what could be. Could be the occasional track but mostly street guy or could be the Hellaflush/Street/Track guy which is what I think the Ohlins R&T for the S2000 and BRZ was designed for. Tire choices, spring, sway bar, car's weight distribution etc.. those are all personalized which is why I think ultimately a great 1-way tune seems rather elusive on a high end damper with a lot of range. I've given up on it which makes me want an OEM CTR. They've adjusted it for you and from what I hear it's a great tune for most of us.. unlike the OEM tune for the Focus RS.. but I digress. Please folks.. I'm not an expert here... i've just been tinkering with the suspension on this car for years. For example, with the JRZs I started with a 14k/11k setup on R-comps. Then 11k/9k. Then 9k/9k. Then 9k/7k (current). I'm waiting to try 9k/8k now because it's pretty good with the 9k/7k now but with the OSG LSD and the heavy supercharger in the back, under med to heavy accel I feel there's simply too much weight transfer to the rear causing more front understeer than i'd like but it feels pretty good on high speed and low speed turns but I want to dial down the on-throttle understeer just a tad bit. I've tried 9k/9k but I feel with my sway bar setup and other things on my particular car like the choice to stick with Michelin PSS tires, 9k/8k might be the sweet spot for my driving style. Yes, I still have to play with rake and alignment. This is where i'm at after maybe 3yrs of tinkering with this setup.

I still think a professional driver/tuner can eek out 20-30% more out of these JRZ dampers with some development driving by simply adjusting knobs - we'll see. My benchmark is the 650S which I have some decent seat time in. I feel the suspension tuning on that car is still better than my NSX but only by about 20-30%.

 

[RYU]

Also, at the end of the day... if I could find a properly tuned 1-way, i'd much rather go with that. However, i've learned so much and have pages of notes on my dampers that I have preferred settings for almost all conditions I choose to adjust for now. I don't see myself changing dampers in the future only because i'm simply too lazy and once you find the settings in a 2-way or even 3-way it's not hard to turn knobs. It's getting there that's the issue. 5yrs ago I found the education worth it. Now? I'd probably rather trust a tuner and buy 1-ways.

The one big advantage of a tuned 1-way is the ability to incorporate something like an EDFC controller. Gosh.. I would absolutely LOVE LOVE LOVE that. JRZ has some in the works but it's a purely skunkworks project. I don't think it'll see consumer use anytime soon. I also have to 2x more knobs to control.

 

[Rainman]

A lot of this sounds very similar to tuning with a standalone vs chipping/tune remap for the engine. The more your setup deviates from stock the more a custom tune you need beyond some generic tune out of the box.

Ryu, the car geek part of me envies all the suspension knowledges you’ve gained, unfortunately at this stage of life I can no longer afford to geek.

My use is going to be street focused, track competent. Consensus seems to be a ohlins RT setup tuned specifically for my setup as long as I have good ohlins support in So. Cal and the too short rear dampener issue is addressed.

Thanks for the info on the iLift btw Mac.

 

[jwmelvin]

I'm waiting to try 9k/8k now because it's pretty good with the 9k/7k now but with the OSG LSD and the heavy supercharger in the back, under med to heavy accel I feel there's simply too much weight transfer to the rear causing more front understeer than i'd like but it feels pretty good on high speed and low speed turns but I want to dial down the on-throttle understeer just a tad bit. I've tried 9k/9k but I feel with my sway bar setup and other things on my particular car like the choice to stick with Michelin PSS tires, 9k/8k might be the sweet spot for my driving style. Yes, I still have to play with rake and alignment.

Considering steady-state cornering (and thus only springs not dampers): the total amount of lateral weight transfer (LWT) depends on your CG and speed. That’s it. The balance of the car may then be influenced by apportioning that LWT between the front and rear. The apportionment (i.e., balance) depends on the relative F and R roll stiffness. So, for example, by stiffening the rear relative to the front (whether through a swaybar or springs), you are bearing more of the LWT across the rear tires than across the front. That impairs traction of the rear tires, moving the balance towards oversteer.

You said on-throttle balance. In that case, weight is shifted rearward, which will move the balance towards understeer every time. So it may be that you want to move your overall balance towards oversteer. That is implied by discussing spring rates and increasing the rear rate.* Or it may be that you intend to address dynamic balance by altering your damper tuning to control the shift of LWT as you move weight back under acceleration.

* Within the range you are talking, the choice between changing rear springs and adjusting the F/R swaybar is likely somewhat arbitrary. In my Civic, the rear needs so much roll stiffness that I felt the better approach was to use a very stiff swaybar, keeping the heave frequencies in the desired range.

That’s just my understanding of the dynamics and I’m open to corrections. Sorry if this is a bit afield of the thread topic, but choosing spring rates is pretty important.

 

[RYU]

[MENTION=28830]jwmelvin[/MENTION] i'm pretty happy I can induce on-throttle understeer or oversteer. I just want less bias towards understeer. Increasing rear spring rate by ~15% will probably get me there.

Yes, I can certainly get there with damping adjustments but in this case, I'd like to change my baseline rate instead of stiffening the dampers. Damper adjustments for me will be left for fine tuning for specific driving conditions.

We'll see...

Sorry folks who are reading this thread for Ohlins reviews!!!

 

[Mac Attack]

Dave, once your application is sorted, is that the kind of thing PSi will provide as more of an off-the-shelf solution for others? I'm very interested in how this goes for you, as I will definitely want to replace the dampers on my car eventually. My experience with custom-valved Bilstein racing shocks in my track car has me convinced that a high-quality shock with appropriate tuning is more important than adjustability. Adjusting damping should be more to tweak balance during corner entry/exit, not an overall balance control. Soft springs with a firm damper still results in an (undesirable) extended weight-transfer period; it's part of the problem with making a car good for both street and track.

What spring rates are you going for? I currently have 10k/8k and it's harsh but I believe that's largely due to the low-quality dampers. Even with good dampers, I might prefer 8k/6k springs on the street. My NSX will likely always be focused on street use, so I'm happy with slightly softer springs.

Well, they have all the info they need now for a NSX application. I assume if someone else calls them they can duplicate it or tailor it to your needs. Hopefully they'll make some progress on my kit soon, but it's the beginning of racing season and they are swamped. My fault for not sending them this over the winter....

I currently have 10 kg/mm front and 8 kg/mm rear springs. For the same handling observations Regan describes below, I wanted to go with 10 kg/mm all around with the Ohlins, but I just gave that as baseline input to PSi. We'll see what they recommend. My car is 2800 lbs wet with me in it, so relatively light with a 40:60 F/R weight distribution. '02 wheels with performance summer rubber in the standard sizes, Dali racing front sway bar and no rear sway bar.

Also, I have non-compliance front clamps I recently removed for my mostly street use. I noticed a small improvement in comfort. I think I'll leave them off for awhile.

I remember spending hours scraping off all the old flaking undercoating in the wheel wells and under the car. Now, I'm shopping for mass-loaded vinyl and other sound deadeners to add to the car and make it a bit quieter! Must be getting old....

 

[Mac Attack]

Sorry this might be a bit of a rushed reply. Traveling at the moment but for fun which is NICE

I forgot to mention the most important aspect when purchasing dampers at these levels IMO... Do not underestimate the level of support available for them. I decided on JRZs a few yrs ago because of the available local support. The support I've received such as periodic dyno tuning/matching and rebuilding has been nothing short of phenomenal. Kudos to Frank Chen, one of the original distributors since the 90s. I originally was very close to purchasing the 'Super Ohlins' line from Japan but the lack of support and uncertain communication (I had to purchase thru a friend) got me worried for the long run. Support, support, support.. any of these dampers can make you happy with the proper support IMO. No surprise, as KW becomes more of a consumer brand, i've heard their support/warranty has taken a turn for the worse as compared to before.

When you step up to the big leagues with your kind of dampener, that kind of support is expected. I don't think I've heard any neqatives on the aftermarket support from Penske, Moton, JRZ, MCS, etc. Yeah, you're not going to get that kind of help with lower-end dampeners.

I think Ohlins support has grown a lot over the past 10 years in the States and will hopefully continue to do so. However, corporate Ohlins will refer you to local specialists if you need a rebuild or tuning help. That's where PSi comes in. They have a great reputation and know their stuff. I know they've been very patient with me asking them questions over the years, and I haven't sent them a dime yet.

 

[docjohn]

Am I the only one who can't stop yelling ...sakebomb sakebomb:biggrin:

 

[Mac Attack]

Well, the Ohlins may not work for me. The NSX needs their longest DFV model for proper suspension travel (my concern stated many times in this thread), and the UNZ model is back-ordered and not available in the US (or anywhere else for that matter). Ohlins will have their Japanese manufacturing company do a run of these late August, so by the time I get them, it will probably be early October.

I'm undecided if I'll wait for the DFV's or go with an alternative like a double-adjustable remote reservoir damper (to gain travel) from AST. Still unsure on whether or not to go with linear or digressive valving, and what springs to run.

 

[RYU]

Well, the Ohlins may not work for me. The NSX needs their longest DFV model for proper suspension travel (my concern stated many times in this thread), and the UNZ model is back-ordered and not available in the US (or anywhere else for that matter). Ohlins will have their Japanese manufacturing company do a run of these late August, so by the time I get them, it will probably be early October.

I'm undecided if I'll wait for the DFV's or go with an alternative like a double-adjustable remote reservoir damper (to gain travel) from AST. Still unsure on whether or not to go with linear or digressive valving, and what springs to run.

Bummer about your Ohlins. Have you looked into the "Super Ohlins" set from the Japan division? I use to like the adjustable bottom bracket design but I've switch my mindset to prefer the full body shock with max droop.

I have the spec drawings from my JRZ's somewhere if you need it for reference.

 

[RYU]

Super Ohlins from 2011

http://www.nsxprime.com/forum/showt...-Info-please?p=1454565&viewfull=1#post1454565

 

[Mac Attack]

Thanks. I think you mentioned those to me a few years ago and I did some research on them back then. I talked with a few people over in Japan and IIRC, these are no longer made. The DFVs replaced them.