Camber/Toe/etc. settings for track use?

HIJACKER · 5 March 2011

I'd like to setup my camber/toe/etc. to a good starting point for the best handling for track use, without being overly aggressive and killing my tires on occasional street driving. Can anyone put up some figures on what I should have my mechanic setup the car to as a starting point?

Currently, it's at OEM - or close to it. I have fully adjustable coilovers. I was hoping to see a stuck thread with some numbers or even a FAQ, no luck.

Thanks!

CL65 Captain · 5 March 2011

HIJACKER said:
I'd like to setup my camber/toe/etc. to a good starting point for the best handling for track use, without being overly aggressive and killing my tires on occasional street driving. Can anyone put up some figures on what I should have my mechanic setup the car to as a starting point?

Currently, it's at OEM - or close to it. I have fully adjustable coilovers. I was hoping to see a stuck thread with some numbers or even a FAQ, no luck.

Thanks!

There are lots and lots of threads with track alignments.

Basically, if you are at stock alignment then just bump up the camber settings.... if you don't want to be too aggressive then try 1.0 deg front and 2.0 rear. What kills the inside of the tire is toe much more so than camber. Plus, if you run the track with OEM settings you are going to kill the outside edge of the left tire (assuming you run the track clockwise - ie more right hand turns). Max out the caster and maybe set the toe the min and still remain in spec. ie front 2.5mm and rear 3mm for toe.

nsxtasy · 5 March 2011

HIJACKER said:
I'd like to setup my camber/toe/etc. to a good starting point for the best handling for track use, without being overly aggressive and killing my tires on occasional street driving. Can anyone put up some figures on what I should have my mechanic setup the car to as a starting point?

That's basically what I look for too. I have mine set to the recommended alignment specs, with two qualifications. For the rear toe, I use the 6 mm spec that was originally recommended by Acura when the car was first introduced (and not the 4 mm to which they revised it after getting sued for excessive tire wear). And I have the front and rear camber set within spec, but shooting for the negative end of the range. HTH

R13 · 6 March 2011

From another thread I pulled a toe spec of .2 degrees out in the front and .3 degrees in in the rear (whatever that translates to in mm) to try as a baseline. This has worked well so far.

I also run -2.0 degrees camber front and -2.5 rear. I've probably put a couple thousand miles (including ~500 track/auto-x miles) on the current tires (dunlop star specs) and have not noticed any disturbing wear patterns. The car feels very stable and seems to turn in well.

HIJACKER · 6 March 2011

Great, thanks! Now I just need to figure out where I can go and have these settings configured to the car.

R13 · 6 March 2011

HIJACKER said:
Great, thanks! Now I just need to figure out where I can go and have these settings configured to the car.

Not sure how it is in your area, but there are a couple of "normal" alignment shops in Knoxville that will align to custom spec.

The first thing I'd do if I were you is find the local autocross board and ask them where they get their alignments.

If you don't get anything there, and you don't want to just take it to the Acura dealership (or if the dealership won't do custom alignments), then call around locally. You'll need to ask 3 questions:

1) Are they willing to do a custom alignment
2) Will their machine support doing custom alignments
3) Will a car with only ~4" of ground clearance fit on the alignment rack.

It would also be a good idea to take a copy of the service manual pages describing how to do the alignment, just so they're not loosening any bolts they shouldn't. Then watch the tech like a hawk the first time they do it.

If they get it right the first time, tip the guy and buy a lifetime alignment plan at that place if it's offered :biggrin:

HIJACKER · 8 March 2011

I have a shop that will do my alignments - it's flat on the ground and designed for low profile vehicles. However, I have to provide them ALL the specs if I want a custom alignment.

If I understand correctly, I should keep OEM specs and only alter the camber to -2.0 degrees front and -2.5 rear. Correct?

nsxtasy · 8 March 2011

HIJACKER said:
If I understand correctly, I should keep OEM specs and only alter the camber to -2.0 degrees front and -2.5 rear. Correct?

That's NOT what I recommended. I would go to 6 mm rear toe, and keep the camber within OEM specs, just at the negative end of them. But if you want to do something different, go for it!

docjohn · 8 March 2011

I would only try to max out neg camber if you are experienced and are using R compound tires.

nsxtasy · 9 March 2011

docjohn said:
I would only try to max out neg camber if you are experienced and are using R compound tires.

Do you mean "max out" as in, get it as negative as possible? Or "max out" as in, keep it within the recommended spec but at the negative end of the range?

docjohn · 9 March 2011

nsxtasy said:
Do you mean "max out" as in, get it as negative as possible? Or "max out" as in, keep it within the recommended spec but at the negative end of the range?

ah yes using the typical laymens terms for making most negative...allowing for the degree of suspension lowering.

R13 · 9 March 2011

Just Curious Doc and nsxtasy: why the recommendation against more(well, less in math-terms) camber than the factory spec? Is it mainly a tire-wear/tram-lining concern?

HIJACKER · 9 March 2011

R13 said:
Just Curious Doc and nsxtasy: why the recommendation against more(well, less in math-terms) camber than the factory spec? Is it mainly a tire-wear/tram-lining concern?

I'd like to know this too.

Also, to keep things in a way I'm sure I understand, any recommendations - can the settings be written out like:

Camber: RF, LF, RR, LR
Toe: RF, LF, RR, LR

etc.. ?

CL65 Captain · 9 March 2011

HIJACKER said:
I'd like to know this too.

Also, to keep things in a way I'm sure I understand, any recommendations - can the settings be written out like:

Camber: RF, LF, RR, LR
Toe: RF, LF, RR, LR

etc.. ?

Camber - yes.
Toe - just list the total toe front and rear, you don't have to list a left and right.

I actually run more camber on the left front than the right because the tracks I run are clockwise and there are naturally more right turns. And no, that doesn't cause my car to pull one way or another. It drives straight down the road.

If you are doing more than 2 or 3 track days a year, I would max out the camber. I don't mean max with in spec like Ken (nsxsty), I mean the most you can get which should be 1.4 to 1.7 or so. Why do I say this?

Because even though the inside will wear more with this camber during street driving, if you don't run enough camber you will toast the outside edges MUCH quicker with not enough camber. It may take 8,000 + miles of street driving to wear the inside, but two or three track days with out enough camber can take the outside edge down to the cord. It all depends how much street driving you do compared to track days. What doc and ken are suggesting is a compromise. If my car was a true daily driver, then I would probably go with what they are suggesting - max camber and still remain in spec. Which I think is -0.8 or so.

PS: The car WILL handle better with more camber.

nsxtasy · 9 March 2011

For a long time I was doing a whole lot more than 2-3 track days a year (more like 20-30). But I was also driving the car to and from the track, and on the street too. That's why I was keeping the camber within spec. If I had a dedicated track-only NSX and I towed it to and from the track and never drove it on the street, then I might consider more camber. But for my usage and needs, the amount of camber I was using (within spec) worked perfectly. And I never had any problems with wearing out the outer edges of the tires, either (not when I was using the same tires on the street and on the track, and not when I was using a separate set of R compound tires).

If you don't have a lot of track experience - let's say under 20-30 track weekends - then I strongly advise you to keep the car within spec while you're still learning, and see how it goes. As you build up more experience (with its handling as well as with its tire wear), you can decide how you like it. But what someone who is racing competitively is doing is NOT necessarily a good recommendation for a novice to use.

Also keep in mind that the alignment is easy to change, based on your own experience. Pick one and try it out. If you decide to change it, all it takes is an hour or so of your mechanic's labor.

SFNSXguy · 9 March 2011

nsxtasy said:
For a long time I was doing a whole lot more than 2-3 track days a year (more like 20-30). But I was also driving the car to and from the track, and on the street too. That's why I was keeping the camber within spec. If I had a dedicated track-only NSX and I towed it to and from the track and never drove it on the street, then I might consider more camber. But for my usage and needs, the amount of camber I was using (within spec) worked perfectly. And I never had any problems with wearing out the outer edges of the tires, either (not when I was using the same tires on the street and on the track, and not when I was using a separate set of R compound tires).

If you don't have a lot of track experience - let's say under 20-30 track weekends - then I strongly advise you to keep the car within spec while you're still learning, and see how it goes. As you build up more experience (with its handling as well as with its tire wear), you can decide how you like it. But what someone who is racing competitively is doing is NOT necessarily a good recommendation for a novice to use.

Also keep in mind that the alignment is easy to change, based on your own experience. Pick one and try it out. If you decide to change it, all it takes is an hour or so of your mechanic's labor.

+1...
I would add that the stock 1991 alignment specs (preferred by nsxtacy too) deliver the best handling (though tire wear is faster than the later specs). I've been using them since I bought the car -- though on five or six occasions I tried other settings for track days. I always ended up going back to the '91 specs as the best compromise -- and I've settled on them now for the last five or six years.

As mentioned above:

Front:
Toe -3.5mm (toe out)
Camber -0 degrees 20' +/- 30' (lean to neg AMAP)
Caster +8 degrees 00' +/- 45'

Rear
Toe +6.0mm (toe in)
Camber -1 degrees 30' +/- 30' (lean to neg AMAP)

stuntman · 9 March 2011

For beginners:

Camber:
Front: -1.0* EDIT: -0.5* would probably be better for beginners with -1.5* rear camber
Rear: -1.5*

Toe:
Front: 2mm OUT
Rear: 4-5mm IN

For most people (settings on my personal car):

Camber:
Front: -1.5* (which is probably close to the max you can get given stock constraints)
Rear: -2.5*

Toe:
Front: 2mm OUT
Rear: 2-3mm IN

Performance/track focused: (at the slight sacrifice of street tire wear)

Camber:
Front: -2* to -2.5* -3.0* could work too with corresponding setup.
Rear: -2.5* to -3*

Toe:
Front: 0-2mm OUT
Rear: 0-4mm IN

Tire Pressure:

COLD:
Front:32psi
Rear: 32psi

HOT:
Front: 35-40psi (35psi for max front grip, 40psi if the car oversteers too much to induce understeer)
Rear: 36psi (for max grip).

*Last weekend before my trip to Vegas/Spring Mountain - I set my tire pressures on my Bridgestone RE01R tires for street use at 36psi all around, I forgot to lower them and on track they were great for a few laps but then the car got VERY loose/oversteering. When I came in the fronts were at 40psi and the rears were at 43-45psi! As street/R-comps get above 40psi, they lose a lot of grip. I suggest keeping them ~36-38psi.

EDIT: *******Keep in mind these are general, ballpark settings. The "perfect" setting will depend on a variety of variables from tire size, compound, wheel size/offset, suspension, spring rates, swaybars, weight, weight distribution, power, downforce, etc.. In short, a TIRE PYROMETER (Probe Type) is a great investment along with a good tire pressure gauge to further dial in your setup. I dislike umbrella statements but the above should be a decent rough guideline, but will vary depending on your setup.

R13 · 10 March 2011

Billy, one of your previous posts on alignment setup was where I pulled my baseline spec from. Thus far I've had no complaints. Thanks for sharing the knowledge.

HIJACKER · 10 March 2011

Outstanding - that's perfect! Thanks Billy!

TURBO2GO · 12 March 2011

docjohn said:
I would only try to max out neg camber if you are experienced and are using R compound tires.

Why?

docjohn · 12 March 2011

TURBO2GO said:
Why?

because as was stated earlier R compound tires like to have as much - camber esp the front so you don't scrub the outer sidewall. street tires in general have stiffer sidewalls esp the lower profile sizes and the overall grip is less meaning less chance of generating outer tire wear.

stuntman · 12 March 2011

docjohn said:
because as was stated earlier R compound tires like to have as much - camber esp the front so you don't scrub the outer sidewall. street tires in general have stiffer sidewalls esp the lower profile sizes and the overall grip is less meaning less chance of generating outer tire wear.

Not necessarilly true. Its not good to generalize Rcomps having softer sidewalls than street tires. While some street tires do have stiffer sidewalls, most are probably softer. The main issue at hand is the contact patch under its intended use. Cars that corner heavily on street or track will require more camber than cars that rarely see cornering load. A lot of camber in a Rcomp or street tire car that spends most of its time going straight will wear the inside of the tire. On the otherhand a car that spends a lot of time cornering with insufficient camber will wear the outer edge of the tires because its not usint the majority of the contact patch under its heaviest use.

You need to asses the camber needs on the intended use of the car and not just the tire. Ideal track settings will probably have relatively more camber than a beginning driver or a car that is mainly street driven -to a point.

Assess your intended use and experience and then go from there. If you're really serious, invest in a probe type tire pyrometer and adjust your camber needs accordingly.

Billy

docjohn · 12 March 2011

as always I apreciate your input Billy,and yes I have gathered my data with pyrometers/trial and error ect.

stuntman · 12 March 2011

docjohn said:
as always I apreciate your input Billy,and yes I have gathered my data with pyrometers/trial and error ect.

You're ahead of most

docjohn · 12 March 2011

I think we all benefit from your input as you are immersed and surrounded by people who want to go fast and win for a living..plus as I have already mentioned you have a desire to know as much as you can about your craft.For us regular weakend shmos who want to advance in no particular order: instruction/coaching, some form of reliable lap timing device,tire pressure and pyrometer readings as hot as possible...with those tools and practice speed will come.

Camber/Toe/etc. settings for track use?

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