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To upgrade or not - from NA1 brakes to....?

Joined
11 July 2014
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Location
Chicago, IL
Am thinking I miss my NA2 brakes (on my NA2 no less!)

The NA1s are leaving me underwhelmed. I suppose those of you that SC or turbo your cars get this feeling as well; once you've had power, it's hard to go back to stock.

So, what are you running or recommending? As I see it, there are Brembo, STMPO, OEM NA2 and ?
 
From what I have read on these forums the Stoptech kit with the Brembo ebrake is the best as the Stoptech Kit was designed for the NSX in terms of brake bias. Also the Stoptech works with '02+ 17" wheels with a spacer...


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Honestly. I picked up my car the other night and have stock brakes with I think upgraded pads and rotors on and it felt fine. Then again I drive a truck around as my daily so everything feels better then that.

The placebo effect on brakes is a huge factor. Brake fade is one thing. Stopping and grip is another. You can make the stock brakes perform very well, it just will take some tinkering with the right pad combo.
 
I have hawk hps pads with stop tech Oem style rotors. I'm boosted and it stops just fine. I also have abs disabled and have not tracked.
 
I upgraded my lines with Braided Stainless Steel Brake Lines w/ clear vinyl coating from SOS and have been using the Hawk HPS pads. Combo works fantastic for me. Lines made a big diffrence in feel compared to the old rubber lines.
 
Am thinking I miss my NA2 brakes (on my NA2 no less!)

The NA1s are leaving me underwhelmed. I suppose those of you that SC or turbo your cars get this feeling as well; once you've had power, it's hard to go back to stock.

So, what are you running or recommending? As I see it, there are Brembo, STMPO, OEM NA2 and ?

What are your objections? Feel? Pedal pressure required to stop? Modulation? Fade? Street or track use?

Other consideration: were the brakes you installed used, rebuilt, or new?
 
What are your objections? Feel? Pedal pressure required to stop? Modulation? Fade? Street or track use?

Other consideration: were the brakes you installed used, rebuilt, or new?

Thanks, all great questions.

Brakes are OEM. I would use for street use. I drive aggressively at times and am looking for a grabby, strong stop. Tires and wheels are same from NA2 back to NA1.
There is no fade or modulation. It is simply just a normal NSX brake. I preferred stopping much quicker with the NA2 setup. Am trying to replicate that.
 
Thanks, all great questions.

Brakes are OEM. I would use for street use. I drive aggressively at times and am looking for a grabby, strong stop. Tires and wheels are same from NA2 back to NA1.
There is no fade or modulation. It is simply just a normal NSX brake. I preferred stopping much quicker with the NA2 setup. Am trying to replicate that.

Hmm, let's first clear up one thing: when you say NA1 vs NA2 what do you mean by NA1 and NA2? There has been some confusion here on Prime about whether NA1 means 3.0 and NA2 means 3.2. Which NA1 / NA2 definition are you using?

Reason we need to know many things is because brakes can perform well or poorly for even very simple reasons such as pin lubrication, pad material, age of rubber hoses.

When I tracked my '91 I had a hell of a time getting it stopped. I'd stand on the pedal and get very poor braking. And this with aggressive Cobalt track pads.

I'd crack rotors. Finally figured out that the original '91 calipers were all gummed up in spite of me replacing the pin lubrication with very high temperature synthetic grease. I cleaned out the calipers but yet when I'd check it again after tracking, the grease on the pins was like glue not at all like a lubricant. No wonder the brakes felt like $hit.

With new rotors, I could finally see that based on the wear pattern that the pads were touching the rotors only about 1" out from the hub, so I'd get horrible feel and stopping power. And when the brakes cooled, with the center of the rotor face and hub getting way hot and the outer (radially) portion of the rotor not being used and cool, there it went, cracked the rotors. Every time.

It could have been that the calipers were flexing, or that they were not sliding properly on the pins. The pads would wear at an angle.

I simply sourced a set of used '01 brackets, calipers, and rotors here on Prime (yes, I know, I didn't change the master to account for the larger bore size for what, the rears?) and I've been OK ever since (but I also retired it as a track car).

So, long way of saying that we need to ensure we're comparing apples and apples, that what you are putting on are up to snuff, and not performing poorly just because they're "NA1" vs "NA2". Many variables go into it.
 
I could be wrong but i think the Brake Master Cylinder is the same (only 02+ NSX-R got a different master) so you should be ok on this! :wink:


I simply sourced a set of used '01 brackets, calipers, and rotors here on Prime (yes, I know, I didn't change the master to account for the larger bore size for what, the rears?) and I've been OK ever since (but I also retired it as a track car).
 
Hmm, let's first clear up one thing: when you say NA1 vs NA2 what do you mean by NA1 and NA2? There has been some confusion here on Prime about whether NA1 means 3.0 and NA2 means 3.2. Which NA1 / NA2 definition are you using?

Reason we need to know many things is because brakes can perform well or poorly for even very simple reasons such as pin lubrication, pad material, age of rubber hoses.

When I tracked my '91 I had a hell of a time getting it stopped. I'd stand on the pedal and get very poor braking. And this with aggressive Cobalt track pads.

I'd crack rotors. Finally figured out that the original '91 calipers were all gummed up in spite of me replacing the pin lubrication with very high temperature synthetic grease. I cleaned out the calipers but yet when I'd check it again after tracking, the grease on the pins was like glue not at all like a lubricant. No wonder the brakes felt like $hit.

With new rotors, I could finally see that based on the wear pattern that the pads were touching the rotors only about 1" out from the hub, so I'd get horrible feel and stopping power. And when the brakes cooled, with the center of the rotor face and hub getting way hot and the outer (radially) portion of the rotor not being used and cool, there it went, cracked the rotors. Every time.

It could have been that the calipers were flexing, or that they were not sliding properly on the pins. The pads would wear at an angle.

I simply sourced a set of used '01 brackets, calipers, and rotors here on Prime (yes, I know, I didn't change the master to account for the larger bore size for what, the rears?) and I've been OK ever since (but I also retired it as a track car).

So, long way of saying that we need to ensure we're comparing apples and apples, that what you are putting on are up to snuff, and not performing poorly just because they're "NA1" vs "NA2". Many variables go into it.

My definition of NA1 versus NA2 relates to motor (3.0 vs 3.2), transmission (5 versus 6 speed) and brakes (91-96 vs 97+). If that is incorrect, say the word.

My car appears to be bone stock, dealer-maintained. The rotors and pads look fine with even wear across the rotors. My calipers could very well be binding, so I can check on that.
 
If they feel spongy try replacing the lines. Made a world of a diffrence on my 92
 
My definition of NA1 versus NA2 relates to motor (3.0 vs 3.2), transmission (5 versus 6 speed) and brakes (91-96 vs 97+). If that is incorrect, say the word.

My car appears to be bone stock, dealer-maintained. The rotors and pads look fine with even wear across the rotors. My calipers could very well be binding, so I can check on that.

OK, cool, I think we're on the same page with respect to NA1 / NA2. :biggrin:

I wasn't necessarily saying you would have uneven wear, only pointing out that the calipers might not be performing as well as they could due to possible binding, which you picked up on.

Only other thing I can think of is that maybe the rotors are glazed. Would not be a bad idea to remove them and scuff them up (which you can do yourself with judicious use of some 150 grit sandpaper, just remember to clean them off really good before reinstalling them), or even better, have them turned.

Not too much more to say, hope you solve your issue.
 
Thanks, all great questions.

Brakes are OEM. I would use for street use. I drive aggressively at times and am looking for a grabby, strong stop. Tires and wheels are same from NA2 back to NA1.
There is no fade or modulation. It is simply just a normal NSX brake. I preferred stopping much quicker with the NA2 setup. Am trying to replicate that.

For your use, you might be happy with refreshing the OEM components. I did that and it was a great improvement over the original worn-out parts. I had the calipers professionally rebuilt and polymer coated at Goldline, and replaced all the caliper pins, spring plates, bleed screws etc. Rotors are StopTech, cross-drilled with the coated centers. Pads are Project MU NS, pricey but there are some great similar compounds in other brands. Replaced the brake hoses with braided stainless which give a definitely firmer pedal feel, and bled the system with Motul RFB600. Very happy, great modulation and haven't noticed any fade after multiple hard stops, although I haven't tracked them yet.
 

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Agree with Wavey1. Sounds like what you're looking for is just better feel. The stock NSX brakes are fine as nsxtasy can attest.

My first piece of advice would be to check the condition of your pads and rotors. Make sure they're not glazed over. I ruined a set of Hawk HPS on the track this way by running fast and using Nitto NT01 track tires. The pads got so hot that they glassed over and were completely worthless. Braking distanced increased from stock by over 200% from before the sessions started. It was frightening driving home, and looking back, I probably shouldn't have done it.

My 2nd piece of advice would be to just replace the brake fluid and run slightly more aggressive pads. The initial "bite" feeling comes from the pad material. Brake fade comes from the ability of the pad to withstand heat. Stainless steel brake lines may improve feel but I didn't notice any when I did mine. I think the stock lines are fine.

The Hawk HPS pad is a good street pad but will not hold up for repeated heat cycles seen at the track. You'd need at least the Hawk HP+ or even more aggressive.
 
It's pretty easy to pick up 97+ front calipers but the rears forget it. I've been trying for a long time.

It is rumored that the earlier front caliper up to 97 is better in terms of performance as it has bigger pistons. BUT the 97+ rotors are bigger, so you could try getting later front brackets which will allow you to run the larger disks from the 97+ this combo with the early front calipers would be a nice half way point.

Also look at upgraded rotors and pads, personally i really like Centric Cryo treated rotors, Brother runs them on his RX7 although it's lighter on oem brakes no fade after a complete lap at the nuremburgring. My EBC turbo groves had a heart attack half way round. Read up about cryo treated rotors, meant to really help.

The rears, well 97+ had bigger pistons in the calipers and rotors. As mentioned the rear calipers or just brackets are a nightmare to get hold of. Just upgrading disks and pads may help enough though.

Also braided lines and quality fluid are usually really overlooked. Ask me how i know ;)


This is all assuming it's an stock powered Nsx. If you start upping the power then oem upgrades may not be enough. If you track your car then again you may want to look at something better than an oem upgrade.


I've just ordered some Stoptech's for the front, the rears i've just got new pads and disks on the oem setup. Not ideal as the bias has changed but it will be ok for now until i can find a better solution for the rears. I might even get some rear brackets made so i can run the 97+ bigger rotors with my oem caliper.
 
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The differences between the brake systems of different years are big enough:
91<>99
- bigger rotors, more so in the rear
- bigger pistons in the rear (slightly smaller in the front)
- bigger master cylinder
- new ABS system
- with the new ABS system, added brake proportioning valve

91 stock
- the brakes generally suck, not worth a sportscar at all
- all of the braking is in the front
- OEM pads strongly suck, no bite at all
- a 91 brakes like a sedan designed in the 80ies
- it's outperformed by every new car of these days (including Lada, Yugo and Fiat 500 :)). Electronic brake distribution is the key word here.

Honda learned in the 90ies. On a 99 model the brakes are distributed more towards the rear. The proportioning valve prevents overbraking of the rear. The OEM pads still suck.

I would:
- get a hold on the bigger 97+ brakes
- overhaul the calipers (very important)
- get some serious street pads (HAWK, Project mu...)
- spend $2k on the improved ABS system

Years ago I've spent $4k on this combo and this was one of the best mods overall even though the CTSC and the short gears are nice as well. :D
 
I don't think there was a change on the master... part number is the same for 91-2005 NSX: 46100-SL0-954 only 02+ NSX-R got a different master (46100-SL0-N12) and also different booster...
Back then (2008) I've ordered the 97+ master cylinder which had bigger internals than 91-96. You're right about the part number today. I guess that Honda substituted the older one for the newer version in the parts catalog as they are interchangeable.
 
I have hawk hps pads with stop tech Oem style rotors. I'm boosted and it stops just fine. I also have abs disabled and have not tracked.

I have this same combo except my stoptech front rotors are 2 piece and the rear are regular stoptech slotted. It stops fine from high speed.
 
I completely disassembled my 94 brakes - all new stock internals except pistons - painted - stock pads - SOS lines
Cyro treated a set of front slotted dba rotors, stoptech slotted cyro rears - maybe $700 bucks
They feel really smooth and responsive.
I am not on the track (... yet).
 
Speedmaster, any decision?
 
Speedmaster, any decision?


Wavey1- No, not yet. Been just sitting back and reading a bit.

Thus far I understand that maybe I can rework what I already have and get better performance (note: I had the ABS and brake systems flushed and new fluids last week.) I don't think the calipers are binding nor do I think the brake hoses are flexing. I do know I am down to about 7mm on the pads.

On the counterpoint, someone just listed 1997+ brakes for all four corners at a reasonable price ($950). Makes me curious if I should just pick that up, refurbish them and then install. But to what end? I loved my brakes on my NA2 but IIRC my previous NA1s had pretty awesome brakes as well.

So, analysis paralysis? I think so.

Oh, and I need to check into Goldline. That sounds familiar in that I read a few years back that the Porsche owners send their calipers to a similar place.
 
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Yeah, I sent my '88 Carrera calipers there too. They do a really great job and their proprietary finish is awesome. I ran a lot of track days, overheated the brakes a few times and the finish remained perfect. Highly recommended.
 
I completely disassembled my 94 brakes - all new stock internals except pistons - painted - stock pads - SOS lines
Cyro treated a set of front slotted dba rotors, stoptech slotted cyro rears - maybe $700 bucks
They feel really smooth and responsive.
I am not on the track (... yet).

Which DBA rotors did you get and from where? The only ones I can find to order are the street series rotors and not the 4000 T3 which is what I'm looking for....
 
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