I wish everyone loves NSX 2.0 and will put their 1.0 for sale in the following year, and then the used car market will have much more supply than demand. It can bring the price down. will it happen?
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The Negatives of the NSX 2.0
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Perhaps the fact that the 2.0 is generating so much opinion, for or against, is itself a win for HONDA.
No matter what HONDA had produced as the 2.0 would have generated likes and dislikes, that is a given.
What I do feel however is that HONDA may be overlooking something when they produced this remarkably advanced road going machine.
The car is priced in a segment where the buyer does not really care for the bullet proof reliability of a HONDA civic or accord. They buyer in this segment wants a sexy machine that makes a statement. Such a car can be an R8, a GT3, etc. etc. It is the aura that the car has in addition to its mechanical qualities.
Does a 458 or an R8 or a GT3 lose some of that aura if it is a publicly known fact that the car was put together in Ohio instead of its homeland of origin?
There will be a surge of demand for the car as it is released. Will the surge be just that or will it have the staying power of the GT3, R8, 458....cars that sell not just because they are so reliable and masterpieces of engineering might, but because in addition to or even instead of that, they also have history, tradition, name...their particular emblems.
By pricing the 2.0 beyond the reach of the merely well off HONDA has abandoned the very enthusiasts who carried their torch for so long. Creating a car of such ability, HONDA may not have had a choice but to price it accordingly. But by so doing it also entered into a different league of competition where mere ability is no longer enough to win the hearts of the potential buyers.
No matter what HONDA had produced as the 2.0 would have generated likes and dislikes, that is a given.
What I do feel however is that HONDA may be overlooking something when they produced this remarkably advanced road going machine.
The car is priced in a segment where the buyer does not really care for the bullet proof reliability of a HONDA civic or accord. They buyer in this segment wants a sexy machine that makes a statement. Such a car can be an R8, a GT3, etc. etc. It is the aura that the car has in addition to its mechanical qualities.
Does a 458 or an R8 or a GT3 lose some of that aura if it is a publicly known fact that the car was put together in Ohio instead of its homeland of origin?
There will be a surge of demand for the car as it is released. Will the surge be just that or will it have the staying power of the GT3, R8, 458....cars that sell not just because they are so reliable and masterpieces of engineering might, but because in addition to or even instead of that, they also have history, tradition, name...their particular emblems.
By pricing the 2.0 beyond the reach of the merely well off HONDA has abandoned the very enthusiasts who carried their torch for so long. Creating a car of such ability, HONDA may not have had a choice but to price it accordingly. But by so doing it also entered into a different league of competition where mere ability is no longer enough to win the hearts of the potential buyers.
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IMHO: Those who have the financial means and are real fan's of the NSX probably won't sell the 1st gen, they will more than likely keep it alongside the NSX2.0 given that the 1st gen's are real classic cars of the era (1990's).
It's a catch 22, as a prospective owner you want the prices to come down, some current owners probably want the opposite.
I agree with you on the trend that most mid-engine cars these days no longer have an ass and have really long noses. I think the NSX is more balanced as it has short overhangs but there is some ass there if you compare it to other mid-engine cars of today.
I cannot say the Huracan looks better. I think they are all so close, it's really personal preference. However, the NSX has better balance with double staggered wheels and a better ass. The 12C/650S is right there in terms balance in proportions too. The 458 and Huracan look slightly silly with same diameter front/rear wheels when you actually look at the sidewalls and their exaggerated nose and short tail. Some might argue this dynamic is exaggerated and desirable tho.
What I am most delighted about is the dropping of R8 comparisons that was rampant up here a while back. Finally the board has come around and dropped it. I still see it from ignorant social media posters that claim to be enthusiast though so I've been posting some propaganda:
Just because someone is wealthy, doesn't mean they enjoy making trips to their supercar service department and getting raked over the coals by a service writer named Geppetto who makes the customer wait while he finishes his espresso. If you're wealthy your time is worth a lot of money so you don't want to waste it by constantly having to tend to reliability issues. Incidentally, this is probably why early MP4-12C's aren't holding their value very well. This is also why some people will buy a Porsche over a Ferrari.
I think the badge on the hood would be more of a factor than that for a car like the NSX. I do think that the typical Ferrari or Porsche customer would be turned off if suddenly those companies started making cars in Cambodia. But making those cars in the USA probably wouldn't be a big deal, especially if US-built cars were of a high quality.
The only way to build that tradition, is to build the cars. Sure Honda could make a cheaper car but even at $100k it's out of reach for all but the top 1-3% of Americans anyway. And at $100k Honda would be hard pressed to take on Ferrari performance without making serious compromises.
And really the R8 doesn't have the supercar legacy to lean on. It's only Ferrari and Porsche in that category. And to a large degree, the Porsche brand doesn't carry the mystique, exclusivity and desire that the Ferrari brand does. I could walk into a dealership and buy a 911 Turbo today. Wouldn't be able to do the same for a 458 without buying a Challenge car too.
Eh, the original NSX wasn't in reach of the average enthusiast anyway. In inflation adjusted dollars the original NSX would've been over $100k. That's still in well into the 'wealthy' enthusiast range.
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I agree with you on the trend that most mid-engine cars these days no longer have an ass and have really long noses. I think the NSX is more balanced as it has short overhangs but there is some ass there if you compare it to other mid-engine cars of today.
I cannot say the Huracan looks better. I think they are all so close, it's really personal preference. However, the NSX has better balance with double staggered wheels and a better ass. The 12C/650S is right there in terms balance in proportions too. The 458 and Huracan look slightly silly with same diameter front/rear wheels when you actually look at the sidewalls and their exaggerated nose and short tail. Some might argue this dynamic is exaggerated and desirable tho.
What I am most delighted about is the dropping of R8 comparisons that was rampant up here a while back. Finally the board has come around and dropped it. I still see it from ignorant social media posters that claim to be enthusiast though so I've been posting some propaganda:
Very cool N-Spec. That really brings it to light. The NSX has the best profile of the bunch. You are too kind to the 458 calling it sleek. That back hatch looks chunky/heavy and that short rear end doesn't help any. I also think you are spot on about the the wheels. I hadn't realized that the 458 and the Huracan had the same diameter wheels front and rear till you mentioned it but you are right.
Now that the NSX design is finalized, would you consider starting a Design Analysis thread (or adding to this one) to highlight the diffs of the these cars? I would be curious to see a comparison of last year's concept to the final production NSX and the C7 compared too if you feel so inspired.
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My thoughts exactly.
Go Irish!
only wish it happens. LOL. I want a decent condition red NA2 for a reasonable price. the current market in California is likely a dead horse. I keep seeing same cars for sale in last calendar year, and they don't get sold somehow. there are only 3 red NA2 available now including a 04, and they are all above 50k. if price can go down a few thousands, it will be great for me.
sorry for being off topic.
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Don't worry too much about the engine cover, I'm sure there will be a way to show off more of the engine.
9-speed Trans: I hope it rev matches well, and the shift times are <60ms (Like most Ferraris)
9-speed Trans: I hope it rev matches well, and the shift times are <60ms (Like most Ferraris)
I'm of the opinion that many of the smaller details of the car are not yet 100% finalized. This is especially true of the interior which was likely redesigned only recently. There are so many odd things going on in there that give it an unfinished look. By contrast the exterior has a very finished look to it.
For instance if you look carefully at the driver's side floor mat it clearly does not fit. The mat is far too short causing the rear anchor points to be visible and the dead pedal gets in the way causing the mat to partially obscure the dead pedal. That mat looks exactly like a 1st generation NSX mat that has been hastily reshaped and thrown in there in time for the show.
Another unfinished looking area is the inner door panels. Look carefully at the light gray seat memory buttons near the door handle. They look exactly like those found on an Accord, yet appear far cheaper looking in this context. Unlike the Accord, the NSX buttons are surrounded by soft looking hand stitched leather and chrome/metal bits. The contrast between the higher end NSX specific materials and the Honda parts bin buttons is jarring-- they look so cheap and out of place! Making the buttons black like the window control buttons would be a huge improvement.
They're still a long time away from their stated delivery date. And recall that Acura's most recent product launch (the TLX) was delayed and arrived many months later than originally promised. So it's not unreasonable to believe that the first customers will be receiving their new NSX's over a year from now. That's plenty of time for some minor tweaks to be made. I'm keeping my fingers crossed that the lame engine shroud gets improved, but I can almost see them leaving it as is.
You can see what I'm saying about the interior in this video....
Sleek is appropriate. It's the only one that does not have a large side intake to break up the side lines. Pininfarina is known for a minimalist/streamlined surface treatment mixed with wacky design cues - such as the catfish mustache front end of the 458.
My first order of business is to create a new production 3d model. I'm still concerned that some details will change when it finally rolls from the assembly line so I'm not in a rush to make a model just yet. I may make a C7 3d model, as it is quite stunning. We'll see how bored I get :biggrin:
Awesome work N Spec! I was hoping to see exactly what you put together, so thanks! As an owner of a new Z07, I, too, would love to see a side elevation similar to the others you've done. I plan to run my Z this Summer, and dump it in the Fall in favor of the NSX.
Another thing I forgot to mention that confirms this car is not completely finished.... There's no protective door sill plates, just bare red paint ready to get scratched to hell by passengers getting in and out of the car.
To get a 458 for $150k-$170k you'd have to get one with fairly high miles (30k-60k miles). That kind of mileage scares off a lot of would be buyers. Even then, there aren't a ton of cars on the market in that price range, meaning you wouldn't get your choice of options and colors.
The other thing is that leasing may not be as good of a deal on a used Ferrari vs a new NSX, although I haven't looked too deeply into leasing used exotics. You might say, "Rich guys don't lease," but many do since they can earn interest on their capital rather than having it tied up in a depreciating asset.
That said, the typical brand snob is gonna go Ferrari, but he wouldn't have bought an NSX no matter how good it was. Anyone who is not a slave to the prancing horse badge would have to logically look at what they're getting for the money in that price range. I doubt 9 out of 10 of those guys is going to choose a used relatively high mileage 458 over a brand new NSX. But that's assuming the NSX delivers an outstanding driving experience and performance.
Even as far back (and further back in time for that matter) as the '99 Zanardi .... I purchased #17 new & there was $5K factory to dealer money on that car & for the rest to help sell new units.
At the end in 2005, it was more like $10K back.
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Two things on my mind about NSX 2.0 that aren't really negatives on the NSX. But for fun:
1. The exotic car market "woke up" in 1991 due to the NSX 1.0, where they were forced to improve their reliability & ergonomics...but it's kind of a bummer to not see the 2.0 stand out and have that advantage now. I haven't heard a peep about any Honda reliability advantage for the NSX 2.0, which is to be expected now that other makers caught up and closed the gap. But that was such a major part of the 1.0 buzz at the time (and is such a major factor of the 1.0's legendary overall "balance") that I find myself really missing not seeing that buzz now!
2. The 2.0 seems much more fitting as an Acura this time IMHO, based on it having such a stylized design that's more "pretty" than "masculine." I saw way more articles this week on the interwebs about the attractive blonde designer of the NSX than about its performance potential and engineering uniqueness. Not a bad thing I guess, just a thing!
N Spec, I love the comparison you posted. NSX 2.0 looks really good there.
1. The exotic car market "woke up" in 1991 due to the NSX 1.0, where they were forced to improve their reliability & ergonomics...but it's kind of a bummer to not see the 2.0 stand out and have that advantage now. I haven't heard a peep about any Honda reliability advantage for the NSX 2.0, which is to be expected now that other makers caught up and closed the gap. But that was such a major part of the 1.0 buzz at the time (and is such a major factor of the 1.0's legendary overall "balance") that I find myself really missing not seeing that buzz now!
2. The 2.0 seems much more fitting as an Acura this time IMHO, based on it having such a stylized design that's more "pretty" than "masculine." I saw way more articles this week on the interwebs about the attractive blonde designer of the NSX than about its performance potential and engineering uniqueness. Not a bad thing I guess, just a thing!
N Spec, I love the comparison you posted. NSX 2.0 looks really good there.
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I don't think it's very useful to compare the last years of the very long in tooth NSX to the first years of the all-new model. If Ferrari had kept selling the 348 for 17 years they probably wouldn't have sold very many of those either.
At any rate, from what I've been told, the Performance Manufacturing Center can make about 800 NSX's a year with one shift of production. They can add shifts at some point but the personnel that would build these cars need specialized training so adding shifts is not something they could do quickly (lead times would be several months at the least).
At 800 units a year I'd imagine every NSX will be spoken for from years 1 through 3 or 4. If they expand production capacity to 2 thousand cars in year 2, I would think they'd still sell out until year 3 of production. That's assuming performance is excellent, no reliability issues, economy doesn't crash, etc.
How many NSX's have you owned?
I agree, 90% or more will go for the used 458 at this price point.
There is no getting around the prancing horse mystique. It is a machine with a soul and a scream that alone is worth the price for many.
Zero. I'm kind of kicking myself for buying a Cayman S instead but I halfway did that because it's easier for me to sell the Cayman now that a baby is on the way. I'd have a much harder time parting with a NSX.
Got to track a 458 and r8 v10 which is more like the nsx. About same hp and awd which was not as fun or sounded as exciting as 458.
As for price being equal, some might even get a f430 over nsx. But the 458 will drop in price soon with the replacement on the way anyway
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You're thinking too much like the typical member of this forum, most of whom bought their NSX used. I don't think the used 458 market will have much of an impact on new NSX sales. Most new car buyers WANT A NEW CAR and will not consider a used one.
What about a used McLaren 12C? You can already buy a 2012 12C coupe for around $150,000. The McLaren is more exotic and provides superior performance to the R8 V10. Yet used 12C prices continue to plummet while new R8 sales continue to do fine.
I don't believe most prospective NSX 2.0 buyers will be cross shopping cars like the 458. They are more likely to be considering a car like the R8. A quick glance at Ferrari and R8 message forums confirms this. The R8 owner's reactions to NSX 2.0 has been mostly positive while the Ferrari owner's reactions are mostly negative.
Thanks Yinzer. The positive side to the "prettiness" factor is that perhaps Acura is trying to sway more women to the NSX badge that way the NSX can more of a babe magnet :biggrin:
I also think it will be the defining benchmark for many hybrid supercars to come. With the GTR and Toyota following suit afterwards soon enough. Who knows who else would follow. The 918 is beautiful and all, but it really did not make that much of a splash for the hybrid hypercars as one would have thought. Perhaps because it's not as obtainable?
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Here's a quick lineup. Long nosed FR cars are nice for what they are, but I am very partial to the balanced proportions of the mid-engine platform.
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Also the side profile of the FT-1 is decent (GTR meets Lexus design language), but the front end and ridiculous spoilers are overkill for me. I honestly think the Corvette and Viper looks better than the FT-1 overall.
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