• Protip: Profile posts are public! Use Conversations to message other members privately. Everyone can see the content of a profile post.

"You might need a new engine..."

Joined
22 April 2014
Messages
351
Location
Greenville, SC
Background (for those of you who don't know me)
  • I have a 1995 NSX with 126k miles and two owners. The first owner had it until 2014; I have had it since then.
  • Only two mechanics have ever worked on the engine. The first was Carl Dehls, a legendary NSX master tech at David McDavid in Plano, TX. He dideverything from timing belt services (2) to windshield wiper changes. I had it serviced at Source1 in Cincinnati
  • The last "majorservice" took place at 118k miles in Oct 2012. Timing belt / water pump / drive belts were replaced, the valves were adjusted with new gaskets, the cam caps were replaced, leaking vtec spool valve o-rings were replaced, a leaking oil pan gasket was replaced, and the spark plugs were replaced.
Current Issue
I was driving the car normally and turned off the AC. That is when I heard a l
oud(ish) rattlethat sounds like it’s coming from the upper end of the engine . Seemed to start suddenly after AC was turnedoff, but it might just have been masked. I am new to Greenville, so I looked around for people who could work on it. The local Acura dealer has an NSX tech, but he is out on medical leave. The owner of a local well-known independent shop says he was an NSX tech at a California dealership for many years before coming to Greenville, so I had the car towed to him (it ran fine, but I didn't want to do any damage). I researched the issue here, and let him know that it might be lost motion assemblies, coil packs, or a failing timing belt tensioner. Frankly, I was a little insulted at first at his response: I'm a typical NSX owner who thinks he knows what is going on with his car but doesn't. However, it didn't insult me too much because he is right that I am far from a mechanical expert.

Last week, after having the car for a week and working on it in his spare time (he owns the business, so he can only work on it when he has the chance), he called me and said "dude, you might need a new engine". He said he felt far more crankshaft endplay than Honda's are supposed to have. I pressed him a bit, and he measured it again and said that the endplay was actually within spec, but toward the end of the spec. He said it was looser than he was used to seeing. I was a bit worried by this and dropped by on Friday with the intent of telling him "thanks" and looking for someplace else to take the car. However, they had started taking it apart and are going to run it with the valve covers off to see if the crankshaft is "walking" when the engine is going. To be clear, I had given them permission to keep going when they called initially. But I was concerned by his initial assessment.

The Ask
I would appreciate advice on this matter. They are basically tearing down the engine to see if they can find the source of the sound. Is there anything I should point them to? The car has been impeccably maintained throughout its life and is very tight and solid.

Good News for Other NSX Owners
When I dropped in on Friday, I took some pics of the engine internals and valve cover. I could not believe how clean the engine was after having run 126k miles. Honestly, it looked like it had just been assembled. Here are some pics:
IMG_4126.JPG IMG_4130.JPGIMG_4128.JPGIMG_4129.JPG


<o:p></o:p>

 
Woah. Not fun.

It would have been of great aid to have a video of what was going on to help diagnose.

Keep me posted, if you need anything and dont have my # PM me.



also that is a little lame to respond to your research in such a manner.
 
Last edited:
First off, full disclosure, I have never done any major maintenance on my C32 so I am a bit out of my league here. However, I have rebuilt engines (on cars where you lift the engine up to remove it rather than lift the car up :smile:). None of these engines were Hondas (if you don't count Honda motorcycles) so Honda's method for dealing with crankshaft thrust is slightly alien to me.

That said, according to the Service Manual, thrust motion on the C32 is controlled by thrust washers on the crankshaft. The service manual specifies that in the event of excessive end play, you inspect the thrust washers and the matching surfaces on the crankshaft for wear. If replacement of worn thrust washers does not remedy the problem, then unfortunately you are in to crankshaft replacement. The Service Manual does not set out any machine / rebuild / different thrust washer options. Some savvy machinist may have developed a technique for doing this. That would be way out of my league.

A new crankshaft would be incredibly bad news (and bad luck); but, it is not immediately obvious to me that it constitutes "you might need a new engine". I would be pressing your mechanic for a more detailed explanation of that. Crankshaft replacement would be expensive; but, not new engine expensive.

A couple of things smell a bit for me. First off, I would expect wear on the thrust surfaces to materialize over time. I would not expect it to show up all of a sudden unless something happened to the thrust washer. If something happened to the thrust washer, I expect that end play would be more than just toward the upper end of the spec. I am at a bit of a loss as to assessing end play with the engine in the car. I think the upper end on end play was less than 0.02". Getting an indicator down on the crankshaft end to check movement and push back and forth on the crankshaft with the engine in the car looking for a motion that is something in the order of 0.02" strikes me as fraught with problems. The Honda SM describes checking for end play with the engine partially disassembled and on a work stand.

The business with removing the cam covers - I assume that this is to allow removal of the timing belt covers so that they can observe the crankshaft pulley and that 'walking' refers to the crankshaft moving in and out while the engine is running? If so, that also strikes me as a difficult assessment because any irregularities in the machining of the outer edge of the lower pulley could show up as in-out movement as the pulley rotates. However, if something happened to the thrust washers, then you might have lots on in-out movement which may be quite obvious.

As noted, I am quite a bit out of my league here; but, it does have the potential for some 'fish smell' to me. I would reach out to Larry B or Kaz and see if they can give you any guidance.

Good luck and hope it is not the crankshaft!
 
Last edited:
That is probably as good as it gets with advice.

It would be interesting to hear the final diagnosis.
 
No idea. That's what makes me concerned. I want to be clear, however, that First Class HALT has a good reputation. It's just that their actions so far have me deeply concerned. But the engine is in pieces now.
 
Are parts just off the engine or is the engine right out of the car? If the engine is out and they are pulling it apart, I think it would be fair to ask to observe the test for crankshaft end-play. The test, as set out in the shop manual, is super simple involving a screw driver (or similar prying type device) and a dial gauge. With the pan off and the block rotated upside down, should take 5 minutes tops to set up the dial gauge and do the test. You might want to get a copy of the service manual from the NSX Wiki and familiarize yourself with the procedure. The test is so simple that Honda dedicates less than 1/2 page of the manual to the procedure.

Or has the diagnosis moved on to something other than crankshaft end-play?
 
They moved on after I pressed and they told me it was in spec. I haven't heard from them since I dropped by on Friday. I'll drop by again when I get back in town this Friday.
 
I am a little bit upset with this story. Directly looking into the internals. I think the risk of failure there on a NSX is very low. Did they check belts, tensioners, pulleys, ... ?
 
That is a positive thing that they have concluded that its not the crankshaft.

Does you car have the original hydraulic style lost motion assemblies in the valve train? Honda changed the design during production because the original style had a habit of sticking leading to noise from the cam box area. I don't know what year that design change occurred.

I have a 2000 so I have the later design LMAs and have no idea what a noisy LMA sounds like. I also have no idea how fast the on-set of LMA noise could occur and how loud it can be. However, since you reported that the noise came from the upper end of the engine, it might be something to evaluate. Science of Speed offers the parts to upgrade LMAs to the later design.

Edit: Oops - just noticed that you already flagged LMAs as a potential issue in the original post. Did the shop conclude that LMAs were not the problem before they went down the crankshaft rabbit hole?
 
Last edited:
I've heard very loud LMAs on a car with similar miles. Actually one or two of them were acting up, not all of them. It sounds like a goblin hammering in the cylinder heads. The sound really has the potential to make you worry about it (big $$$$).

As you relate it to the A/C maybe worth to check the tensioner/bearing also.
 
First - I really appreciate the dialog. You folks are giving me great ideas...please keep it up. In return, I will update you as I learn more.

I hope it is LMA's as well. But Mark Maitland-Smith, the owner of First Class HALT, was pretty dismissive when I brought it up. I spoke to the person who was breaking down the engine, and they didn't know what I was talking about.

I'll do my weekly drop-by today and update this thread if they have anything for me. I'll push the LMA issue again to get clarity on whether they have dismissed it because they thought it was unlikely or if they dismissed it because the tested them.
 
Last edited:
Frankly, I was a little insulted at first at his response: I'm a typical NSX owner who thinks he knows what is going on with his car but doesn't. (from your first post)

+

But Mark Maitland-Smith, the owner of First Class HALT, was pretty dismissive when I brought it up. I spoke to the person who was breaking down the engine, and they didn't know what I was talking about.
Looks like your car is in good hands and you're treated like a customer, LOL! :D No offence but I personally would take my car out of there but I know sometimes you're not in the position to set the rules. Hope for you and your car that it will take a happy end.

As the valve covers are off now, testing the LMAs is a very easy job. The video above shows you (well, the so-called pros with the wandering crankshaft. LOL) what to look for. Good luck!
 
Last edited:
Where all the good reviews for that shop are coming from? So far all I see is red flags.

They have a group of experienced Honda techs. I had them do some work on the S2000 and they did fine. But I'm concerned about their actual vs. stated expertise on the NSX. This is a different beast.

[MENTION=31635]emac[/MENTION] just took in his NSX for a timing belt change...we'll have to see how his experience goes for more common maintenance work.

I got there too late on Friday...I'll call them later today (I'm traveling). I wish they would be a bit more proactive. I haven't heard from them since two Fridays ago when I stopped by.
 
Got in touch with Mark today. Here's the latest: When they ran the engine with the valve covers off, the sound stopped. This surprised them. His conclusion: the cam caps need to be re-torqued. They will do that sometime this week. They will re-adjust the valves while they are at it.

When I asked why he was so quick to dismiss the notion of a sticking LMA or other possibilities I raised, he said that those would sound more like a ticking while mine had more of a rattle.

I'll post again when I know if it works.
 
would the LMA noise be reduced after the engine is hot?

I've heard very loud LMAs on a car with similar miles. Actually one or two of them were acting up, not all of them. It sounds like a goblin hammering in the cylinder heads. The sound really has the potential to make you worry about it (big $$$$).

As you relate it to the A/C maybe worth to check the tensioner/bearing also.
 
Back
Top