Love Fab Vs Ctsc

[WOODY]

FIC is only timing and fuel. most H2O injection systems have their own controllers

 

[ChitownNSX]

Dave,

I have an AEM, water injection, and a lift on its way for the garage. :biggrin: Give me a call for details.

I have a Rotary Lift two post going in the garage as of March!
I am so dam excited!!!

 

[RON98]

Do you need the full AEM to run water? What about the FIC?

no you can run water on even the stock computer and n/a

its a really simple stand alone system.

depending on how much water you put in, you wont need to make any ignition or fuel changes.

fuel stays the same, its ignition timing that changes.

water increases octane of the fuel thus you need to advance timing if your putting in a lot.

if you run a 6-8 gph nozzle, you have no problem just running it right off your current system settings and turning up the boost.

i got some AEM data log information which i presented to the mr2 club but they where too chatty to see the real value in the infornation. if there is a big enough demand here i'll post it up also.

i been moaning and groning about W/I on the SC systems since day one when i joined the forum.

 

[warren1205]

Do you need the full AEM to run water? What about the FIC?

the FIC has two additional fuel maps. You can do as you please. secondary fuel, water meth, etc..

 

[Like007]

You can read about Shad from Driving Ambition
at www.drivingambition.us
He also bilt my 1992 NSX to 650 HP on Love Fab turbo
and 3.5L motor

Igor

 

[WOODY]

the FIC has two additional fuel maps. You can do as you please. secondary fuel, water meth, etc..

But it cannot control it, only provide different maps for when it is on or off.

 

[swbatte]

While HP makes a car fast, what makes it feel fast is torque. I used to just barely goose my V12 Mercedes 600 and without even going fast, you could feel the abundance of torque ready to launch you. In my 600 HP Supra I could be driving calmly at 3500 RPMs in 4th gear, barely get into the throttle and as that turbo started to spool, you could just feel power ready to be unleashed. This is very hard to describe... torque has an addicting quality. What you guys are experiencing with the turbo cars is a lot of torque. It is generally higher than the SC motor, especially the twin screw that has a very smooth power band. It never "hits" like a turbo that just decided to come online. The faster car around a track may not even be the turbo, and in my opinion won't be if the power was equal. But even with equal power, the extra torque and the way the power is delivered with the turbo will make it feel faster. If you guys ever get a chance to be a passenger in a Twin Turbo Mercedes V12, do it. I have been in a Renntech CL65 that was putting out 1000 Nm of torque. I think that translates to 740+ lb/ft.

It is so funny to have 4 passengers in a heavy car feel torque in their stomach when the engine is only at 3K RPM's. It seems all quiet and serene, but our butts are sinking into the seats. Hard.

ChiTown,

I think this says it best. Peak hp is not the issue, nor does it necessarily generate the fastest car. Hp is Torque multiplied by RPM and by a constant, so you want the flattest, most accessible torque curve you can get.

Both kits are great kits. Have you gone for a ride in any FI cars? I would, I've driven a Factor X car, and a couple of CTSC cars, and they were all great. What I think would make you happiest, is the car that "feels as fast as it goes". Some cars are only fast because of the last 2500rpm of their power band. Other cars haul ass off the line all the way up to the limitter, but don't have the same peak hp.

Any of you FI guys have some dyno curves with Torque and actual acceleration times you can show ChiTown?

I'd love to see a Love Fab and CTSC dyno shoot out here.

PS - you guys NEED to come up for Est Fest. Larry B is doing a tech session, Derick Hanson (race car driver) is doing a classroom high performance driving seminar, you'll be cruising some of the most beautiful scenery around & Dave is giving everyone free beer & cubans! :biggrin:

 

[baynsac]

Shad is Driving Ambition in Gold River CA. Ex-Comptech, knows more about roots superchargers on the NSX than any other person on the planet! He designed and built Kip Olsen's stupid fast 3.5L High boost, 2.3 L SC NSX. He is also responsible for Steve Ghent's White turbo'ed race car that took second(to Factor X) at the Laguna Seca Time attach, driven by Kip(Damn good for a guy who drive a tractor for a living).

He is the most 'straight shooting' guy in this community. His strongest point is he is great at matching products to peoples wants. He won't sell you stuff you don't need and can't use! Just the things that will help you reach your goals!

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Ditto, Shad is very straight foward, shoots from the hip. No suprises in the end dealing with Shad. Kips olsons car is a work of art....... so I guess that makes Shad the Artist lol

 

[baynsac]

The supercharger will only keep you happy until you drive one of the turbo cars.



Posts like this just irritate me. What is so sorted out about the CTSC? They were tinkering with it over its entire life cycle, including replacing the crappy, poorly-thought-out choice for the original blower. And, they never got past their half-assed 'engine management.' Got oil all over your hatch? Thank the 'production' version of the CTSC. How about the lame boost-a-pump instead of a real fuel pump upgrade? Wow, there's some fine engineering. Now get the belt tight enough not to slip at all with the 'high-boost' pulley and see how long it lasts. More fine engineering there.

Overall, Cody's kit (the subject of this thread) is more complete and more fully developed than ANY version of the blower kit Comptech sold. And, please elaborate on high-IATs with his system - where did you find out about them and which car are they on? Or, are you just injecting hearsay from some home-made kit into the discussion for no reason? BTW, you might want to check out the IATs from the 'high-boost' CTSC - they can be worse than many turbo systems, including the LoveFab. I've seen over 200 on them here in the summer. My 600hp turbo system didn't get close to that, even on hard track days.

And you think maintenance is worse with the LoveFab kit? How? Please be specific as to what you will need to do extra regarding maintenance that you wouldn't do to any well-cared-for car. For starters, you won't need to swap out belts or blower oil. . . .

Dave (prime name DAVID) I wasn't saying one was better than the other all I was saying is I haven't heard too many problems with the basic comptech kit. But maybe you can't read because in the end I made the comment that I don't have neither systems so what do I know. It wont irritate you if you actually read the rest of the post and see what I was saying.

 

[NetViper]

I'd love to see a Love Fab and CTSC dyno shoot out here.
:

What for? It think you know what the results would be.

CTSC, stock HP and TQ curve + 75-100

Lovefab, non-stock looking curve, a lot more power.

 

[swbatte]

What for? It think you know what the results would be.

CTSC, stock HP and TQ curve + 75-100

Lovefab, non-sock looking curve, a lot more power.

Thanks for the info. Apparently you've seen them. Some of us haven't. That's why.

 

[BioBanker]

Here is mine Sean

360 whp. 250 lbft

Pretty similar to what most with an NA2 and an autorotor get.

They had to do it vs Speed because they were having trouble getting a spark reading. While it was recording fine, it wouldnt chart vs RPM.

 

[NetViper]

Both stock 3.2L motors. Love Fab Turbo from another thread.

Lovefab is peak 9.7lbs, settles to 8.

Dave what is your PSI? 7-7.5 with Autorotor?

433rwhp, 317TQ.

Keep in mind, different dyno, different day, different cars, but it gives you an idea.

 

[swbatte]

Thanks guys.

The torque on the LoveFab is more impressive than I thought it would be. It seems to have very useable power without running all the way to redline.

I didn't expect to see that much of a difference between the CTSC and the LF wrt the torque they produce.

Dave - your CTSC has a very linear rise in hp all the way through. I know you're looking at a higher boost for your car. What is it that you feel it lacks specifically? I know you want more hp for the track, but where does your car feel weak, or are you just driving it to its limit now?

 

[NetViper]

Keep in mind the "high boost" CTSC is only about 20-25HP more. Still far under a turbo, but you can see how the turbo loses that nice linear line the CTSC produces.

 

[Elite]

Keep in mind the "high boost" CTSC is only about 20-25HP more. Still far under a turbo, but you can see how the turbo loses that nice linear line the CTSC produces.

I know everyone has their own tastes, but "that nice linear line the CTSC produces" (or bbsc for that matter) is the biggest negative about belt driven superchargers IMO. You never get a kick in the pants(or it hits and then dies), and the cars actual usable power band is actually quite weak. Peak numbers on superchargers are a bit of a farse. It achieves those numbers for all of a split second before you have to shift and fall into the usable(much lower) part of your power graph.

I have built a 420whp+ bbsc(with air to air intercooler, and probably sits in the 475whp(built motor) range right now) and to be honest, it feels terribly slow. Sure it picks up speed, but there is no sensation of being fast. The owner and I plan to sell the bbsc setup and put my turbo kit on it sometime in the relative future.

 

[NetViper]

I know everyone has their own tastes, but "that nice linear line the CTSC produces" (or bbsc for that matter) is the biggest negative about belt driven superchargers IMO. You never get a kick in the pants(or it hits and then dies), and the cars actual usable power band is actually quite weak. Peak numbers on superchargers are a bit of a farse. It achieves those numbers for all of a split second before you have to shift and fall into the usable(much lower) part of your power graph.

I have built a 420whp+ bbsc(with air to air intercooler, and probably sits in the 475whp(built motor) range right now) and to be honest, it feels terribly slow. Sure it picks up speed, but there is no sensation of being fast. The owner and I plan to sell the bbsc setup and put my turbo kit on it sometime in the relative future.

I agree with that. The SC will never have the TQ push of the Turbo. I think a CTSC would be easier to drive on the track though because of the power curve. Just my opinion.

For me the most important thing is reliability. If you can make equally as much power on a turbo while stressing the motor less, that would be of interest to me.

 

[BioBanker]

Yeah there is a reasonable difference between the two systems, even if both have the same peak hp (which would be a struggle on the CTSC and require detuning on a real turbo like LoveFab). I think that there's the greatest difference on the street and less on the track (because rpm would remain high).

Specifically? In tired of new zo6s pulling me on the straight. They don't run away and it takes them a chunk of the straight to start to pull, but they eventually accelerate away. The same for f430s and their drivers with the blow dried hair. Those little buggers are sneaky!!! Maybe its my giant wing out back slowing me down!

Dave- current thought is that a high boost ctsc with cooling (water/ic) should net 60 whp - much more than a few years ago!

Thanks guys.

The torque on the LoveFab is more impressive than I thought it would be. It seems to have very useable power without running all the way to redline.

I didn't expect to see that much of a difference between the CTSC and the LF wrt the torque they produce.

Dave - your CTSC has a very linear rise in hp all the way through. I know you're looking at a higher boost for your car. What is it that you feel it lacks specifically? I know you want more hp for the track, but where does your car feel weak, or are you just driving it to its limit now?

 

[Cody@LoveFab]

Guys keep in mind that the above graph is using the GT42R turbo! This is the largest turbo to my knowledge to have ever been installed on a street-driven NSX.

If we spec a 61mm turbo, the torque curve will simply blow you away :biggrin:

Science of Speed has done quite a bit of testing with some smaller turbos using our core turbo system, perhaps hit them up for a dyno graph.

 

[swbatte]

Guys keep in mind that the above graph is using the GT42R turbo! This is the largest turbo to my knowledge to have ever been installed on a street-driven NSX.

If we spec a 61mm turbo, the torque curve will simply blow you away :biggrin:

Science of Speed has done quite a bit of testing with some smaller turbos using our core turbo system, perhaps hit them up for a dyno graph.

That would be very interesting to see. I would be far more interested in a smaller turbo/hp set up that provides torque at lower rpm. That would be the best of both worlds!

 

[Cody@LoveFab]

I plan on installing a budget setup on my 1995 when I get the motor back from the machine shop, and I plan on using a 61mm turbo with the boost tuned to around 350whp to see how the factory clutches hold up. I'll have results then, but in the mean time I'll see if I can get SOS to post some more info.

 

[Lotus_Esprit]

I have 3 turbo cars in my life: 05 STI, EVO MR IX, 03 WRX. From my experience with turbos and upgrading the turbos for more power I found out that it is not cheap. Not cheap by buying proper Fuel Injectors, Fuel pumps, proper downpipe housing, Seals (most important), and the proper size turbo for the propers size engine.

Turbo cars are so fun to drive, its like a rocket. there is little turbo lag in lower rpms (of course, we need the exh. gas to spin the turbine) but once you reach 3400rpms (on the sti) its a beast.

Turbo cars are no different then regual N/A cars. Just make sure to change your oil every 2.5k miles and pump the best gas your state offers you. My Sti was making 375whp with the stock vf39 turbo with Cobb Accessport EM, catless catback, walboro 255lp fuel pump, stock injectors, Cobb intake.

I pesonally would turbo tune my nsx. hell, i would love a twin turbo nsx, but I dont know if the aluminum block can handle such power? for that system to work, it will need a duel water intercoolers, and probably each turbo will be pushing at max 5~8 psi each. If we factor that, it is much more reliable to go with the single turbo 8psi turbo setup.

anyways, TURBO FTW BABY!

 

[TURBO2GO]

hell, i would love a twin turbo nsx, but I dont know if the aluminum block can handle such power?

Esprit, what does single turbo versus twin turbo have to do with what the block can handle? The engine sees boost pressure and temperature of the charge coming in. Those factors determine what the block can handle. In any event there are plenty of other items to fail before the block does.

 

[TURBO2GO]

I know everyone has their own tastes, but "that nice linear line the CTSC produces" (or bbsc for that matter) is the biggest negative about belt driven superchargers IMO. You never get a kick in the pants(or it hits and then dies), and the cars actual usable power band is actually quite weak. Peak numbers on superchargers are a bit of a farse. It achieves those numbers for all of a split second before you have to shift and fall into the usable(much lower) part of your power graph.

I have built a 420whp+ bbsc(with air to air intercooler, and probably sits in the 475whp(built motor) range right now) and to be honest, it feels terribly slow. Sure it picks up speed, but there is no sensation of being fast. The owner and I plan to sell the bbsc setup and put my turbo kit on it sometime in the relative future.

First of all I don't understand how you are comparing a Roots-type supercharger like the Comptech Autorotor and a Centrifugal type like the BBSC. They have completely different behaviors and power bands. I have been in both and they don't feel the same either.

Second, I have a real hard time understanding this statement:

Peak numbers on superchargers are a bit of a farse. It achieves those numbers for all of a split second before you have to shift and fall into the usable(much lower) part of your power graph.

When I read this I thought you were talking about an oversized turbo. Are we looking at the same graphs? Doesn't what you are describing depend on gearing? If anything, it is the turbo that is peaky, that you have to wait for, and therefore you have "lost" your usable power band. This is what happens with every shift in a turbocharged car. I took the 5 speed out of my Supra and installed a 4 speed auto. With the exact same car the car ran much faster 1/4 mile times, as there was no loss of boost between shifts.

I am not doubting what you are saying with that BBSC installation, but I think the reason you are feeling what you are describing is simply a difference in torque. Nothing else.

To each their own, but after all my FI'd cars I think the NSX in particular is at its best matched with a roots type supercharger and/or stroker kits. I have never been in Kip's car but I would be willing to bet my bank account that of all the kits available, his would easily be my favorite. This is not to take anything away from a good company like Lovefab, or all the hard work Cody puts in. I am sure his kits are quite usable and quite impressive, and I would enjoy it thoroughly if I had one. I am just saying if money was no object and I wanted to do what fits the NSX the best, I would do exactly what Shad did with Kip's car.

 

[TURBO2GO]

Keep in mind the "high boost" CTSC is only about 20-25HP more. Still far under a turbo, but you can see how the turbo loses that nice linear line the CTSC produces.

Dave, don't forget please that in those applications done so far you are raising boost in a non-intercooled setup and increasing AIT's even further. Once an intercooler is available, adding that and fuel management like the FIC should net a very healthy increase. I would expect closer to 40, even 50.