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17/18 with wide fenders: Is anyone running a 245/40/17 in the front?
- Thread starter jones83
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- 245/40/17 wide fenders
I don't run a 235/40-17, 285/30-18 setup. That front to rear combo is outside the factory ranges. The 235/40-17 front tire needs a 25.52-26.32" rear tire (circumference).
Whose car? I am very skeptical of that since a 9.5+22 front wheel is:
30mm wider than an 'ideal' fitment under the DF fender (without hitting the fender when going up driveways)
26mm wider than still fitting comfortably under DF fenders (with -1.3* camber, but can hit fender when going up driveways)
20mm wider than RYU testing 17x8 +23 235/40-17 and -2.5* camber, which hit the fender badly when going up driveways
In order for a 9.5 front wheel to fit under a DF fender (even with a lot of front camber, -2* or more) it would need a +48 offset. Uneless you're stretching a 215 on a 9.5" wheel and running an unnecessary amount of camber.
The width of the front tire is not the only issue.
In fact the offset plays a big role when it comes to rubbing inside the wheel arches.
On my NSX I run 235/40*17 Toyo R 888 tires and they rub long before getting to full lock.
The reason beeing that due to my large calipers my CE 28 N 17*8 Volk wheels are running with only 33 mm of offset.
The low offset forces the wheel through a larger arc when you turn the steering wheel and the outside of the tire will touch the rear of the wheel arch half way to full lock.
All quite embarassing when you park the car in the paddock next to a GT3 or a 456...
Of course I could increase the caster angle to push the wheel forward a little but then it would most probably touch the front part of the liner.
Here are some pictures where you will see what happened to the liner...
At half lock
At full lock
The liner on the left side
In fact the offset plays a big role when it comes to rubbing inside the wheel arches.
On my NSX I run 235/40*17 Toyo R 888 tires and they rub long before getting to full lock.
The reason beeing that due to my large calipers my CE 28 N 17*8 Volk wheels are running with only 33 mm of offset.
The low offset forces the wheel through a larger arc when you turn the steering wheel and the outside of the tire will touch the rear of the wheel arch half way to full lock.
All quite embarassing when you park the car in the paddock next to a GT3 or a 456...
Of course I could increase the caster angle to push the wheel forward a little but then it would most probably touch the front part of the liner.
Here are some pictures where you will see what happened to the liner...
At half lock
At full lock
The liner on the left side
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Thats the last evo of Kip's NSX race car, which I consider to be the best example of a stock(isn) body NSX. He ran Hoosier A6 245/40/17s front & Hoosier R6 295/30/18s rear.
@scammy Please let me know how they come out and how well they fit. I know they are made to order.
[MENTION=16531]stuntman[/MENTION] Michael Mao's NSX runs that with a 225 I believe. I'm sure front camber is maxed out. My goal is to fit a 17x9 +22 under widened fenders with acceptable camber and not rub.
@CB72 I am a little shocked that you only get around 60% of your original turning radius with your setup. That is far less than I thought you would have. For me the liners will be gone. It is something that I have already resigned myself to understanding. A 245 will never have a chance on the road or at the track with fender liners. I plan to spray the inside of the fenders with a rubber lining to help aid in rock hits.
[MENTION=16531]stuntman[/MENTION] Michael Mao's NSX runs that with a 225 I believe. I'm sure front camber is maxed out. My goal is to fit a 17x9 +22 under widened fenders with acceptable camber and not rub.
@CB72 I am a little shocked that you only get around 60% of your original turning radius with your setup. That is far less than I thought you would have. For me the liners will be gone. It is something that I have already resigned myself to understanding. A 245 will never have a chance on the road or at the track with fender liners. I plan to spray the inside of the fenders with a rubber lining to help aid in rock hits.
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Thanks for your pics and excellent build thread. They leave me wanting more, like a GT3 getting passed ;^)
There could be another option for those of us wanting a semi-slick tire for the NSX:smile:
I happened to look at the tires used on the Lotus Exige S that comes with a 3.5 liter supercharged engine.
The front is equipped with 205/45*17's and the rear with 265/35*18's.
The manufacturer is Pirelli and the tires are the P Zero Trofeo tires.
Looks pretty good to me: http://www.pirelli.com/tyres/en-gb/motorsport/all-tyres/products-sheet/pzero-trofeo#/size-range
I happened to look at the tires used on the Lotus Exige S that comes with a 3.5 liter supercharged engine.
The front is equipped with 205/45*17's and the rear with 265/35*18's.
The manufacturer is Pirelli and the tires are the P Zero Trofeo tires.
Looks pretty good to me: http://www.pirelli.com/tyres/en-gb/motorsport/all-tyres/products-sheet/pzero-trofeo#/size-range
Will do they are in a container somewhere between Japan and New Zealand maybe another month and I should know
As far as I know the Trofeo-R are only available in those sizes, and the P1's sizes. Also they are not recommended for anything wet.
They and the Michelin PSC2s are both horrible in the wet. PSSs are pretty awesome. As far as Trofeo R sizes, they come in many different sizes, including my ideal 235/40-18 and 265/35-19 and 285/35-19:
http://www.bobwoodmantires.com/p-zero-trofeo/
I wouldn't call that many, but it is more than I thought they came in. I ran the PSC2s before and wet driving on even damp roads is life threatening. PSS were far more rewarding of a tire and the ones I want to use in the 245/40 endeavor with my rims. You also get to register the PSS and get Michelin's warranty (Staggered tire warranty) .
I'm actually on stock fenders with liners still 215 40 17 / 265 35 18
did you look at my setup at cars and coffee it's actually 3 years of research and hunting to achieve it correctly on stock everything
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If you wanna run oem and widened fenders I can connect you with someone in town just bring the wheel and they will make it happen
did you look at my setup at cars and coffee it's actually 3 years of research and hunting to achieve it correctly on stock everything
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If you wanna run oem and widened fenders I can connect you with someone in town just bring the wheel and they will make it happen
This thread got me to decide that going for less might be better.
I've been running Toyo R 888's in 235/40*17 and 265/35*18 to hope improve my track times and while the grip was close to the slicks I had been using previously, the car was really no fun to drive on normal roads.
As long as the surface was nice and smooth they felt OK but as soon as the road was uneven with lots of off camber situations the car would hunt it's way through requiring many corrections at the wheel.
At first, I thought that maybe I had some bump steer due to the Comptech camber increase kit I had installed but lately I read that as soon as you set more camber in a suspension the wheels will have a tendency to turn in the direction of the lean.
I practice this would mean that the right front wheel will tend to push the car to the left and vice versa for the other side.
On a flat surface, this is not a big issue but as soon as the road deteriorates and one wheel gets to carry more weight than the other the car will start to zig-zag.
To counter this effect the manufacturers set the front wheels with some toe-out.
I believe the effect gets worse with larger tires, specially when the geometry was not designed for these.
I find it strange that no one has yet tried to redesign the NSX's front suspension to take care of this?
A couple of years back, I had the opportunity to drive a racing NSX and the front suspension was a one-off.
Last but not least if you look at the NSXes that raced at Le Mans in 94/95 you will see that the front wheels are deeply offset to get the geometry right I'm sure.
We need Billy ( [MENTION=16531]stuntman[/MENTION] ) to publish an article on the subject I believe?
I've been running Toyo R 888's in 235/40*17 and 265/35*18 to hope improve my track times and while the grip was close to the slicks I had been using previously, the car was really no fun to drive on normal roads.
As long as the surface was nice and smooth they felt OK but as soon as the road was uneven with lots of off camber situations the car would hunt it's way through requiring many corrections at the wheel.
At first, I thought that maybe I had some bump steer due to the Comptech camber increase kit I had installed but lately I read that as soon as you set more camber in a suspension the wheels will have a tendency to turn in the direction of the lean.
I practice this would mean that the right front wheel will tend to push the car to the left and vice versa for the other side.
On a flat surface, this is not a big issue but as soon as the road deteriorates and one wheel gets to carry more weight than the other the car will start to zig-zag.
To counter this effect the manufacturers set the front wheels with some toe-out.
I believe the effect gets worse with larger tires, specially when the geometry was not designed for these.
I find it strange that no one has yet tried to redesign the NSX's front suspension to take care of this?
A couple of years back, I had the opportunity to drive a racing NSX and the front suspension was a one-off.
Last but not least if you look at the NSXes that raced at Le Mans in 94/95 you will see that the front wheels are deeply offset to get the geometry right I'm sure.
We need Billy ( [MENTION=16531]stuntman[/MENTION] ) to publish an article on the subject I believe?
I'm curious, what was your max camber before the kit, and what is it set to now?
The LeMans NSXs changed the suspension geometry to improve the roll center heights when racing at a low height, the RCs and toe and camber curves get crappy in a hurry, so the relocated and longer arms make for a more consistent and stable alignment through the wheels travel. It really does not have much to do with improving the 'tracking' caused by more camber or wider tires.
CB72 - how much toe are you running? I don't think going to a 215 from a 235 will help improve this much. Also iv'e looked into redoing the suspension but since everything is aluminum and interconnected (and a great design), FXMD was able to make one of the worlds fastest Time Attack cars using the factory geometry. I'm having an analysis done soon on the factory geometry but overall, you kind of have to ditch most of the suspension in the NSX; you can't just offset balljoints or change a single arm, you need to replace everything.
CB72 - how much toe are you running? I don't think going to a 215 from a 235 will help improve this much. Also iv'e looked into redoing the suspension but since everything is aluminum and interconnected (and a great design), FXMD was able to make one of the worlds fastest Time Attack cars using the factory geometry. I'm having an analysis done soon on the factory geometry but overall, you kind of have to ditch most of the suspension in the NSX; you can't just offset balljoints or change a single arm, you need to replace everything.
Interesting [MENTION=19738]CB72[/MENTION]. I always liked the Toyo R888s that I ran except in standing water. If I do go to a 245 tire then it will be 245/35 first and if that will work then I will try to move up to a 245/40. For now I will look for an oversized 215 on the stock fenders, and then work my way up to 245 on oversized fenders.
I'm currently at -1°59' camber and -0°07' toe out upfront.
The rear is at -2°40 camber and 0°13' toe in at the rear.
I don't remember how much I was running before installing the Comptech kit.
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My data came from Milliken's book " Race Car Vehicle Dynamics" page 405 : camber thrust increases with load.
The racing NSX I drove had new upper and lower arms made out of steel as far as I could judge.
In fact the tires I've chosen are the OEM mount of the Lotus Exige S : Pirelli P Zero Corsa in 205/45*17 and 265/40*18.
I ran the 265 size many years ago and was amazed at how it stuck on a wet track.
The Sport Auto french magazine tested the Lotus at the Le Mans Bugatti circuit to clock a 1'52"09 lap with a professional driver.
To be compared with a Porsche 991 Carrera S PDK at 1' 51"97 and a Nissan GTR 2010 at 1'51"37.
Quite amazing as when I raced against one of these it left me standing.
The Porsche 911 GT3 RS 3.8 L running 1'49"25....
I've been invited by Honda France to a Classic Day at the F1 Magny-Cours track in two weeks and I'll report back any progress.
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I have RCVD and had the opportunity to meet Doug Milliken in person, he has a ton of amazing stories and needs to write a book on that. Anyway, I would be interested in hearing your feedback in the 'tracking' effect of the 205's, although the P Zero Corsa's tire construction may make a larger difference than going from a 235 to a 205, so I'm not sure I would draw conclusive results from your findings. I would have been better to have gone with a 205 R888. The Corsa should be much better on the street and in the rain, although you may overheat them and abuse your front tires and overheat both ends of the car so the tires get 'greasy' sooner than the 235/275 setup.
Looking forward to updates.
Looking forward to updates.
As I was looking for more info on the Lotus Exige S, I found this video that compares the V6 cup car to the Cup Racer version: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=39Wk9Ero0Ow
In the video I noticed that the racing car comes with Avon ZZR semi-slicks.
I had never heard of these and to us here in France Avon is a soap brand....
The good news is that they produce a ....215/40*17 tire
Here's their site: http://www.avonmotorsport.com/road-legal/performance/zzr
In the video I noticed that the racing car comes with Avon ZZR semi-slicks.
I had never heard of these and to us here in France Avon is a soap brand....
The good news is that they produce a ....215/40*17 tire
Here's their site: http://www.avonmotorsport.com/road-legal/performance/zzr
I got my Pirelli P Zero Corsa's on my car today.
After doing 10 km with them I can already report that:
1) The front tires ( 205/45*17) no longer rub when I park the car:smile:
2) The atrocious growling noise at very low speed that I though came from my OS Giken LSD is GONE:smile:
3) I get far less kickback from the steering wheel on poor roads
4) The front to rear looks better balanced visually than when I had the 235/40 Toyo's upfront
So far so good!
After doing 10 km with them I can already report that:
1) The front tires ( 205/45*17) no longer rub when I park the car:smile:
2) The atrocious growling noise at very low speed that I though came from my OS Giken LSD is GONE:smile:
3) I get far less kickback from the steering wheel on poor roads
4) The front to rear looks better balanced visually than when I had the 235/40 Toyo's upfront
So far so good!
Given the price of the Trofeos, I wanted to test the P Zero Corsa's first.
I've done 1000 km with them so far including 100 km on track.
The reports are here: http://www.nsxprime.com/forum/showt...-Pirelli-P-Zero-Corsa-s?p=1849342#post1849342
FYI the Treadwear is rated at 60, Temperature A and Traction AA.
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