Alignment after Coilovers etc have questions.

[NSX 3.0]

Just got the car in today for an alignment after a long winter with some suspension work done. Over the winter I installed a new set of new DG-5 Coilovers with Swift Springs 11k-9k, RM Sway Bars,CT Pivot Clamps new sway links front and rear. Question is I always get a alignment every year and have never had a problem with any issues after I had one done. After getting it done today I have a strange drift to the right. The steering wheel is a tad off to the left and if you let go of the wheel it goes pretty much dead center but has a drift to the right. The machine they use is pretty much brand new so my question is how to correct this. The first picture is from last year when I had Koni-Eibachs on the car second picture is from today they changed the caster and toe a tad so I'm not sure if that made the big differnce or not. My tires are still good and I even took them off and tossed my track wheels on and drove it to find out it's the same deal. I called them back and plan on taking it back to re-check the specs and try to solve the problem next week. Any thought are appreciated.

 

[docjohn]

could it be as simple as them not corner balancing the car properly? meaning one side front or rear maybe too diferent in perch height than its counterpart?

 

[FXMDBilly]

I doubt they corner-balanced the car since most alignment shops don't have scales.

I would suggest getting the car corner-balanced BEFORE aligning the car.

If you don't have a credible place nearby to do it, and or don't want to spend the $, jack the car up and measure the distance from the SPRING PERCH (where the spring sits on top of) to the bottom of the shock and make sure the lengths are the same Right to Left.

This will get you within 1-2% of ideal cross weights and the only difference in the cross weight will be the weight distribution of you, your battery, subwoofer, et.... that make up your car.

Its possible one corner is a lot longer than the others, messing up the cross weights and handling of your car.


If the above is ok, then they might have not had the steering wheel perfectly straight when they aligned the car (since the wheel is slightly off to the left and the car drifts to the right) -very common, and that description is spot-on with the problem of not aligning the wheel perfectly. -If its not the cross weights.

How does the car handle? I know you have different suspension/spring rates, but you also have less toe-out up front and more toe-in out back.

What tire sizes do you run? If you have a good stagger like 215/265, I might suggest taking some toe out of the rear and have your old toe-in settings out back.

Billy

 

[NSX 3.0]

Just got back after another check and tweek. It seems much better I need to drive it a bit more. I want to toss my track wheels on and drive it around also. No they do not have a corner balancing machine and I will re-check my measurements on each coilover again but I did that a few times already. Yes the stagger I have is 215-40-17 and 265-35-18 for the street.

 

[FXMDBilly]

Seems like they added your front toe-out back and went even further as well as dialed in even more rear toe-in -to further 'deaden' the response/scrub the tires even more in a straight line for stability and added tire wear.


Billy

 

[nsx27]

Seems like they added your front toe-out back and went even further as well as dialed in even more rear toe-in -to further 'deaden' the response/scrub the tires even more in a straight line for stability and added tire wear.


Billy

Hi guys.. I need your help. I have a tein coilover and I dropped really low. With 18x8.5 front and 19x10 in the rear. I just wanna know what is the alignment spec? And yes I have Toms camber kit. Please can ppls help here? And I greatly appreciate all info! Have a wonderful shining day!

 

[Ponyboy]

Steve, get that car corner-balanced post haste and then aligned. I think that's your foundational issue.

FWIW, I did the reverse of the above, took it the track, and promptly scared myself poopless. doc and bill gave some good advice and I echo it.

 

[NSX 3.0]

Steve, get that car corner-balanced post haste and then aligned. I think that's your foundational issue.

FWIW, I did the reverse of the above, took it the track, and promptly scared myself poopless. doc and bill gave some good advice and I echo it.

I know Shawn...I need to get it corner balanced but the bummer is the closest place is two hours away The strange thing is the fronts are near identical in length but as the rear sits I'm a 1/4 inch off on the rear right but if I lower the right rear it will be a 1/2 lower then the rear left. What do you mean you did the reverse on the above? Also are you guys leaving the left side a tad higher for the weight of the driver?

 

[docjohn]

I know Shawn...I need to get it corner balanced but the bummer is the closest place is two hours away The strange thing is the fronts are near identical in length but as the rear sits I'm a 1/4 inch off on the rear right but if I lower the right rear it will be a 1/2 lower then the rear left. What do you mean you did the reverse on the above? Also are you guys leaving the left side a tad higher for the weight of the driver?

It may sucketh to go 2 hrs but That is one reason I stuck with the r susp....If you are going to really use a coilover like at the track instead of street slamming, posing you need to corner balance them at least once with you in the car, get it right then have fun with your alignment.

 

[stuntman]

I know Shawn...I need to get it corner balanced but the bummer is the closest place is two hours away The strange thing is the fronts are near identical in length but as the rear sits I'm a 1/4 inch off on the rear right but if I lower the right rear it will be a 1/2 lower then the rear left. What do you mean you did the reverse on the above? Also are you guys leaving the left side a tad higher for the weight of the driver?

So with the fronts even R-L and the rears even R-L the RR is 1/4 lower than the LR? -where are you measuring from?

Due to the car's motion ratio, lowering the car 1/4" at the spring perch will NOT = 1/4" ride height. You might have to lower the spring perch less to get the desired ride height. You might also have to lower one of the fronts to get the corner weights more even. If you don't have the time, you can get close to the ballpark of cross weights by making them all even and not turning one corner any more than 1/4-1/2" different than the other side.

It would still be worth it to drive that 2hrs to get it corner balanced then just change the ride height by raising the R&L sides evenly. But be sure to not let the guy corner balancing the car crank on just one corner any more than 1/2" to get 50/50 cross weights. There are many ways to get to 50/50 cross eight and the car won't drive right. You have to make small compromises everywhere to have the ride heights as even as possible to properly achieve 50/50, but it takes much longer.


Billy

 

[NSX 3.0]

It may sucketh to go 2 hrs but That is one reason I stuck with the r susp....If you are going to really use a coilover like at the track instead of street slamming, posing you need to corner balance them at least once with you in the car, get it right then have fun with your alignment.

Doc...the car is not street slammed and I agree I need to go get it done. Believe it or not the ride is awesome on the street with these Swift springs I love them. I can say my previous Eibach-Koni setup compared to ride is real close. Still have not played with the settings been on soft the few times I had it out.

 

[Ponyboy]

I know Shawn...I need to get it corner balanced but the bummer is the closest place is two hours away

Don't be afraid, Stevie! People go further to do less. And getting it done is well worth it.

What do you mean you did the reverse on the above? Also are you guys leaving the left side a tad higher for the weight of the driver?

I aligned my car then did a ghetto corner weight (just like what Billy stated above). My car was scary on track. So much so that when a buddy drove it, he pulled in after the first flying lap. Tell whomever does the corner-balance what you weigh and they'll put that ballast in the seat when they do the car.

 

[NSX 3.0]

Well guys what a eye opener. I had the car corner balanced and aligned today at Acura of Brookfield Milwaukee. I didn't think they had the scales to corner weight but talked to John V last week and he said yes they did and get in to him asap. What a mess at first weight check this out...

LF- 662lbs RF- 500lbs

LR- 786lbs RR- 959lbs

The cars weight with me out is 2889 lbs which I thought was pretty good. It took them a good 3 hours to tweek and align all corners and get it to this corner weight.

LF- 644lbs RF- 608lbs

LR- 909lbs RR- 899lbs


With me in the car the car weight is 3060lbs. All I can say is this thing is on rails with a awesome smooth ride no pull or drift etc it's like night and day. As for alignment spec it reads like this.

LF -1.5 camber RF -1.5 camber
8.0 caster 8.0 caster
-0.06inch toe -0.06inch toe
total toe
-0.11inch



LR -2.5 camber RR- 2.5 camber
0.08inch toe 0.07inch toe
total toe
0.14inch

So glad I had this done and what a fun ride home in this 80 degree day in Wisconsin...no wait 57 tomorrow Can't wait for the first track day the 18th to try these suckers out.

 

[docjohn]

Glad to hear you succeeded with optimizing your suspension. Your experience is exactly why I got the type R susp instead of adjustable coilovers,I knew I would not easily be able to get a good corner balance localy.Do you realize how many of our members buy coilovers and just adjust height by eye I mean you could at least tell there was a problem,but I wonder how many folks who spin out and wreck thier cars on the streets( like all the solo accidents we hear about in cali) have jacked up coilovers

 

[NSX 3.0]

Glad to hear you succeeded with optimizing your suspension. Your experience is exactly why I got the type R susp instead of adjustable coilovers,I knew I would not easily be able to get a good corner balance localy.Do you realize how many of our members buy coilovers and just adjust height by eye I mean you could at least tell there was a problem,but I wonder how many folks who spin out and wreck thier cars on the streets( like all the solo accidents we hear about in cali) have jacked up coilovers

I know John, that was John V's exact quote many guys install them and set the height and think there alright. I guess I'm guilty also since that's all I thought you had to do until Billy kept telling me to corner balance it. I'm truly amazed at the difference from the drive down and back it's like a whole new car with an amazing ride and handling never thought it would be so nice.

 

[NSX 3.0]

First reading was when I brought the car in with me out of it. Second was the finished product with me in the car and final alignment spec.

 

[NSX 3.0]

Final stance.

 

[Ty B]

I know John, that was John V's exact quote many guys install them and set the height and think there alright. I guess I'm guilty also since that's all I thought you had to do until Billy kept telling me to corner balance it. I'm truly amazed at the difference from the drive down and back it's like a whole new car with an amazing ride and handling never thought it would be so nice.

It is great to hear from a first hand experience of before and after; one more person that can help convince others that it is worth while. The first time you over correct or deal with an unintended slide you will pay for the time and effort to get this done. Corner balancing and equalizing cross weights can not be over sold to people! What was the main reason that you were hesitant to corner balance your car in the first place, inconvenience, or you just didn't understand the handling instability? Car looks great by the way.

Glad to hear you succeeded with optimizing your suspension. Your experience is exactly why I got the type R susp instead of adjustable coilovers,I knew I would not easily be able to get a good corner balance localy.Do you realize how many of our members buy coilovers and just adjust height by eye I mean you could at least tell there was a problem,but I wonder how many folks who spin out and wreck thier cars on the streets( like all the solo accidents we hear about in cali) have jacked up coilovers

Doc, not saying the R suspension is close, but if you get a chance to confirm the cross weights it would be interesting to verify how close they are. With all the track time you attend, aren't there people in attendance with scales you could do a free trial?

 

[stuntman]

If you don't have the knowledge, time, or money, just make sure your coilovers' ride heights are equal right to left. This will get you in a close ballpark.

Having said that, you can't adjust your corner weights on a stock (NSX-R) suspension, so if you set a coilover with equal ride height R-L, then it will be no worse off than a non coilover like the NSX-R suspension. Yes the adjustability of a coilover allows the user to goof up the settings, but it also allows the car's cross weights to be set up better than the NSX-R's suspension do to this adjustability -and be tuned specifically for the weight of a given car/owner.

Food for thought.


Billy

 

[docjohn]

True Billy, I don't dispute the benefits of adjustable coilovers,I just think there is a large population of average Joes with fubar cross weights or at least with enough of a variance to adversely affect handling,not optimizing it.If I do get a chance to put my car on scales i will post.

 

[Ty B]

Fubar? What is this unit of measurment you refer too, I'm not sure if I have a proper measuring device to measure in these units?

 

[docjohn]

Lol I'm sure your tongue is in the cheek,but for those not familiar with slang http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FUBAR

 

[Big_D]

Very nice stance. We have similar taste in wheels. Glad you got it all dialed in.

Fubar? What is this unit of measurment you refer too, I'm not sure if I have a proper measuring device to measure in these units?

LOL :smile:

 

[NSX 3.0]

Had a few emails about price and where I got them. Drift Speed so far is the only supplier I know of retail is $3180 and come with 9k-14k Swift Springs. Spring rate can be changed to your liking I opted for 9k-11k and can even be switched to 11k front and 9k rear similar to the NSX-R suspension which I think is 10k front and 8k rear.

http://www.driftspeed.com/index.php?main_page=dg_5

 

[sparky]

Related but slightly off-topic ... the rear toe-in specs for stock NSX have always intrigued / concerned me, being so high (6mm / 0.25" from memory).

Questions:
Has anyone replaced rear bushings with stiffer aftermarket versions (e.g. from SoS) and then found they could substantially reduce rear toe back to something more "normal" without negative handling consequences (or better still - positive improvement) ?

Are there other methods for getting rear toe under control?