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Alignment setup na1

Joined
26 May 2014
Messages
227
Hello,

i did an alignment of my na1 today all though the car was driving great. It was way off. Front had positive Track and rear one wheel totally straigt.

car felt planted like nothing i have ever experienced before.

todays setup, according to the information I found here.

Toe:
front: -2mm
rear: +3mm

camber:
front: 1degree
rear: 2.2degrees

caster: 9.5 degrees

car feels a little floaty going straigt but corners well. No strange rear end movement on weight transfer.

I will go back to less camber in the front. What would you do to remove the floatyness when going straigt?

cheers,
bernhard
 
what tire? size and pressure?
 
Not to be picky but NA1 refers to the 3.0 liter engine. NA2 refers to the 3.2 liter engine.
NA1 cars were made from 1991 - 1996 with manual transmissions and 1991-2005 with automatic transmissions.
NA2 cars were made from 1997-2005 with manual transmissions.
 
Sorry, was already pretty late yesterday :D

92 NA1
215/40 on 8x17
255/35 on 10x18
Tire pressure is 2.1 bar all around.
Tires are Federal 595 RS-r

Bernhard
 
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What does 'floaty' mean?

Does it feel like the back end or the front end is wandering? When travelling in a straight line, as a general rule, toe in on the front end tends to reinforce the tendency of the car to remain going in a straight line (enhances straight line stability) and toe out tends to make the car more of a handful to keep in a straight line. Conversely, toe out can enhance the response to initiating a turn.

I have never experimented with changing the toe settings on the rear end so I can't offer any useful observations.
 
Findings of yesterday evening. The workshop screwed up. alignment was off by at least 3mm. I pulled out the good old rope and aligned it myself. Only the left front was off. don't know what they did ...

the car now drives nice and straight.

Bernhard
 
When travelling in a straight line, as a general rule, toe in on the front end tends to reinforce the tendency of the car to remain going in a straight line (enhances straight line stability) and toe out tends to make the car more of a handful to keep in a straight line. Conversely, toe out can enhance the response to initiating a turn.
Actually the inverse is true. Toe-IN will improve the initial turn-in response, but will have slightly less front grip mid-corner. Toe-OUT will make the turn in response slower and more vague, but will enhance mid-corner front grip slightly.
 
Toe:
front: -2mm
rear: +3mm

camber:
front: 1degree
rear: 2.2degrees

caster: 9.5 degrees

In regard to rear toe-in (+3) that is the spec that got Acura sued. It was updated late 1993 to (+2) for a total rear of 4mm toe-in, instead of 6mm toe-in to save the rear tires.

Regards,
LarryB
 
Actually the inverse is true. Toe-IN will improve the initial turn-in response, but will have slightly less front grip mid-corner. Toe-OUT will make the turn in response slower and more vague, but will enhance mid-corner front grip slightly.

My comments probably apply more to rear drive front engine cars (the type of car that I briefly experimented on with switching to less toe in - turned it into a squirrel chaser!). In general, toe in does improve straight line stability. Older rear drive passenger cars tended to come with toe in. Front wheel drive is another story.
 
A bit of context.

My dated (I really am an Old Guy) real world experience with experimenting with changes in toe settings involved early seventies rear wheel drive, front engine cars which frequently came with 0 or in some cases very slightly positive camber settings from the factory. I expect your real world experience is almost certainly more current than mine and involves track time. I also expect that none of your vehicles come with anywhere near 0 degrees camber on the wheels and the different camber alters the response.

The following description by a mechanical engineer provides a succinct explanation of the self correcting effect of toe in versus toe out when traveling in a straight line and the suspension is responding to road irrregularities.

http://www.ozebiz.com.au/racetech/theory/align.html

Again, this is a general discussion that applies only to straight line stability and says nothing about how toe in versus toe out might alter the steering response mid corner when the suspension is loaded by turning. I suspect racers are less worried about being able to drink coffee from their travel mug on the straights while driving with one hand than the rest of us mortals.

In the context of the original post, the original description of 'floaty' was a little vague. If floaty meant that the car had lost some of its self correcting action to remain in a straight line, then fiddling with the toe settings could certainly have contributed to the loss of that self correcting action.

Respectfully

Old Guy
 
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sorry for the vague description.

by floaty I mean that the front end feels like its flying and not connected to the road like it should be. I also know that feeling from our auto slalom car. When I adjust the front dampers too soft. Sorry, english is not my first language. Sometimes its a little difficult to really express what I mean.

Bernhard
 
It's difficult to talk about suspension through the internet because there are so many different factors that can affect the end result: toe, camber, caster, ackermann, scrub radius, tire pressure, tire construction, spring rates, roll center heights, dampers, etc... The suspension as a whole is a complicated system that works as a complete unit and any change to one aspect usually affects the others.

But getting back to toe: I agree Old Guy that toe-IN can improve straight line stability compared to toe-OUT which can follow the road imperfections. However, consider that tires do not generate lateral forces (grip) until the tire twists and deflects with a certain amount of slip angle. Since the outside loaded tire does most of the work in changing the direction of the car, toe-OUT has the outer tire pointing in the opposite direction of the turn.

Let's say there is 1 degrees of toe out per side. The outer tire needs to turn 1 degree just to be pointed straight, which does not contribute to lateral load generation. While the inner tire is now at 2 degrees, its contribution to directional change becomes ever less significant as weight is being transferred off of it and to the outer tire. As the outer tire gets increased load and builds up to 2,3,4...7,8,9 degrees of slip angle, it generates more and more lateral load.

For toe-IN. Lets say both tires have 1* of toe-IN. In this case the outer tire has 1* pre-loaded in the direction of a turn. As the car steers 1* into the corner, the outer tire increases to 2* of slip angle and deflection as load is being transferred to it, while the unloaded inner tire is now at 0*. At this stage, the toe-IN example has 2* of steering input from the outer LOADED tire and 0* on the unloaded inner tire (compared to the toe-OUT example where the outer, loaded tire is at 0* and the inner unloaded tire has 2*). The ideal, peak slip angle of, say 10*, for a tire gets there quicker in the toe-IN example.

So, why not always run toe-IN?

Depending on many of the other factors in the suspension, the improved turn-in response and 'pointy', 'direct', 'twitchy' feeling of toe-IN may not be desirable. Also the effects of toe can vary with speed and as said in my previous post, toe-OUT can contribute to more front grip steady-state than toe-IN. Also the improved turn-IN response of toe-IN becomes more significant at higher speeds, but also builds up to the steady-state understeer quicker.

For autocross, toe-IN would probably not be good, while at a track with high speed esses and transitions where the car needs to change direction quickly but settle to a (relative) steady-state understeer, toe-IN might be more desirable. It all depends on many factors and its difficult to give blanket statements for anything due to all of the variables in the suspension system. However, if a car oversteers at the limit but feels lazy from initial turning response, toe-IN might be a good direction to try. That or stiffening the dampers, front swaybar, or various other changes...

darock - where do you notice this 'floaty' feeling? Does it get worse the faster you go? Is it bad when going down a straight road, bumpy road, or when initially turning in corners?
 
The floaty feeling was always there and worse on bad roads. But as I said, it was the result of the workshop screwing up the alignment. I talked to them and they said, the left clamp holding the measuring device may have slipped on the rim a little bit when doing the caster measurements. They had to readjust the track after that. anyway. I corrected their mistake with my back to the roots rope adjustment technique and the car now drives nicely.

What it still has is a little understeer in tight corners. That was not there before. feels like the tire searches for grip, looses it, slides a little until it grips again ... its not a steady understeer. It gets worse with more steering angle so its probably too much initial camber. I will go back to factory settings. Right now it has 1° but 4° at maximum steering angle due to 9.5° caster.

Bernhard
 
Yes, but only in really tight, low speed, corners. The car pushes over the front wheels unless you give it a lot of throttle and transform it to slight oversteer.

That's probably a situation you don't face that often in US as everything is big and wide (at least where I have been). Here in Austria we have really small roundabouts and tight low speed corners. With the setup it had before and only 0.5° of camber it would clear those a lot better or at least does not loose grip as early as it does now.

Sadly I don't know what track setting it had before because I destroyed the original setting while opening the track rod adjuster retaining nuts which were seized.

Bernhard
 
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Try trailbraking and keeping weight on the front of the car to reduce the understeer.

Going to factory alignment settings will make it understeer more than what you currently have. What was your rear camber set at before And I think the drastic variance across our country from twisty mountain roads to straight flat cornfields in Iowa are probably more diverse than Australia ;)

...Can't generalize about an entire country :)
 
Rear camber has not changed. its a little over 2 degrees.

I did not intend to say something bad about US. ;)

And you are probably right, that US is more diverse than Australia ...

Bernhard (in Austria, we don't have kangaroos :D )
 
what psi is 2.1 bar?
 
yikes he needs more tire pressure forgetabout the alignment..:eek:
 
Yea that might work for cold temperatures on a track day but not quite as high as you might want for the street. Not all that far off though from the usual 33 psi (2.3 bar) in front. Seems like a lot of people tend to run lower than the sticker-value of 40 psi (2.8 bar) in the rear.
 
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