An 8cyl NSX Is A Must...

[jmsc]

Lets see. Corvette has been 8 cyl since the 1960's. Ferrari has been 8 cyl+ for about as long. Did these mfg's get it right the first time? Porsche 911 has been 6 cyl since the 1960's. The latest issue of Autocar (UK) has spy shots of an 8 cyl 911. Heresy for this once 911 owner? Not quite. Not too long ago, in 1999, Porsche did something risky. In 1 bold stroke it went from air-cooled to a water-cooled engine. Many Porschephiles were unhappy. But, this move guaranteed the continuance of the 911 for many years to come. Today, sadly for Porsche, the 6cyl engine has reached the end of its development cycle. A current state-of-the-art 8 cyl engine is producing hp unheard of in a 6, turbo or non-turbo charged. But wait a minute! Isn't Porsche producing an 8 cyl for the Cayenne SUV? Well yes. Isn't Honda producing an 8 cyl engine for the IRL? Well yes. Am I missing something here? Not really. In 2 years, whether you like hp or 0-60 or 1/4 mi or 0-100 or emissions or gas mileage, many sports cars will offer 400+ hp. Are you listening Honda?

Currently, NSX's 300 sales figures per year are abysmal to say the least. Does Honda view NSX's as a hobby or a showcase? If it does, then it better re-visit this game. For it to prosper and be a viable alternative to Ferrari or Porsche, Honda does not need 4 or 6 or 10 or 12 but 8 cylinders in their next NSX. It also needs a win at INDY or at F1. An 8 cylinder engine would be a bold stroke for Honda, as it will be for Porsche, and, it would guarantee the existence of these beloved marques for the foreseaable future.

Marketing is the key to the sales game. Lets hope Honda gets it right.

For in the distance I see a Ferrari AND a Porsche killer on the horizon.

 

[sjs]

I don't see the V8 yet, but is it so unthinkable that Honda would go with a turbo? Even a mild 5-6 psi on a 3.5 liter would yield all the power that people seem to think they need, and if they built the engine to take a lot more the tuners would run wild, producing all the media hype and excitement they could ask for and more than even they could afford to buy.

 

[mlambert890]

I think it's a bit of a stretch to say that the futures of Porsche and the NSX are uncertain if they don't produce a V8.

Porsche is selling out of GT2s at $180,000. It doesn't seem that people are too concerned with the fact that it's only a V6 in there. The fact that it outperforms nearly any other production car seems to be enough.

If Honda produced a 2900lb 500hp V6 turbo NSX that could lap a Ferrari 360 without breaking a sweat and make a Z06 look like a dinosaur, I think they'd be fine.

 

[sjs]

Originally posted by spookyp:
...If Honda produced a 2900lb 500hp V6 turbo NSX that could lap a Ferrari 360 without breaking a sweat and make a Z06 look like a dinosaur, I think they'd be fine.

Exactly, but in the end they will still be stuck right where they have always been with the NSX, a Japanese car maker producing an exceptional car but lacking the perceived heritage of the competition. And for that reason they won't sell as many as they should.

 

[mlambert890]

Yeah, that's a good point... It's so frustrating too. The "heritage" and "mystique" thing is insurmountable. If people refuse to accept Japan producing world class sports/GT cars on some kind of emotional level (which seems to be the case), then it's all an excersise in futility.

What makes it worse is that those who do fully embrace Japanese performance (outside of Japan), tend to be very young and unable to drive the market share of a high dollar sports car.

The European market is definitely better with this, but there is still a predominate Western belief that Japan=econobox.

The one exception might be Toyota. US Lexus might actually be able to pull off a high dollar sports car.

 

[nsxtasy]

Originally posted by spookyp:
Porsche is selling out of GT2s at $180,000. It doesn't seem that people are too concerned with the fact that it's only a V6 in there. The fact that it outperforms nearly any other production car seems to be enough.

That's just sticker. My understanding is that most of them are selling for about a third more than that right now.

 

[nsxtasy]

I gotta ask - jmsc, why did you start a new topic on this when it's already being discussed here???

 

[MAJOR STONER]

"You meet the nicest people on a Honda."

Something that came to mind as I visited a Mercedes dealership yesterday.

 

[jmsc]

nsxtasy - didn't know I had to. Sorry if I broke any rules.

 

[huckster]

hey, spookyp, why do you say 'lexus' would have better sportscar mystique? not sure that would be my perception.

im in the 30 something demographic; i grew up in the transition from the whole american musclecar thing to the japanese=quality shift.

imho, if they build a nsx that comes signicantly closer or exceeds the performance of the other supercar marquees, then the nsx will get all the attention it deserves. 'build it, and they will come'.

as long as they increase the performance numbers, i dont really care how they do it....

 

[huckster]

this reminds me of a mantra from a former mentor;

"there is no substitute for demonstrated performance"

 

[Zanardi 50]

Originally posted by spookyp:

Porsche is selling out of GT2s at $180,000. It doesn't seem that people are too concerned with the fact that it's only a V6 in there.

Aren't they flat-6 Boxer engines in the GT2's or any other 911/996 's ? Just wondering....

 

[Zanardi 50]

Originally posted by spookyp:
Yeah, that's a good point... It's so frustrating too. The "heritage" and "mystique" thing is insurmountable. If people refuse to accept Japan producing world class sports/GT cars on some kind of emotional level (which seems to be the case), then it's all an excersise in futility.


What makes it worse is that those who do fully embrace Japanese performance (outside of Japan), tend to be very young and unable to drive the market share of a high dollar sports car.

The European market is definitely better with this, but there is still a predominate Western belief that Japan=econobox.

The one exception might be Toyota. US Lexus might actually be able to pull off a high dollar sports car.

I totally agree.

 

[sjs]

Originally posted by Zanardi 50:
Aren't they flat-6 Boxer engines in the GT2's or any other 911/996 's ? Just wondering....

You are correct of course.

 

[Juice]

To me it doesn't matter if Honda uses a AA battery to power the new NSX. The only real goal here is to produce a ground breaking car that will sit beside its italian competitors and mock the sticker pasted on the window. I agree that an 8 cylinder is the way to go simply because it looks like other marques are raising the bar again. In order for me to buy another NSX, it must not only match the competition, but be a viable option for another 4 year stretch.

Manufacturers are not sitting around praising themselves these days. The competition is forcing them to improve their cars every 2 years. If you buy an NSX, your hope is that it won't become obsolete in a mere 4 years. I pray that Honda forsees this and is prepairing to release something none of us thought possible. They did it back in 1990 if you recall!



[This message has been edited by Juice (edited 28 June 2002).]

 

[MAJOR STONER]

The Acura DN-X prototype has a 3.5 i-VTEC six cylinder NSX engine in it.

 

[Soichiro]

jmsc posted:
>>Isn't Honda producing an 8 cyl engine for the IRL? Well yes.

Nope. See below.

>>Am I missing something here?

Yes - Ilmor engineering will produce the engine which will be rebadged a Honda.

 

[Edwardo]

Originally posted by Juice:
To me it doesn't matter if Honda uses a AA battery to power the new NSX. The only real goal here is to produce a ground breaking car that will sit beside its italian competitors and mock the sticker pasted on the window. I agree that an 8 cylinder is the way to go simply because it looks like other marques are raising the bar again. In order for me to buy another NSX, it must not only match the competition, but be a viable option for another 4 year stretch.

Many people like to modify their NSX's. I am not sure if you can port and polish the battery connectors hehe. Joking aside, merely adding a couple cylinders(unlike some supplamental electric engine) would not add a great deal of complexity to the engine. I believe that this needs to be taken in to account because this is a world class GT car that will be tracked by many.

 

[BoostedMR2]

I don't know if I agree with the premise behind dropping an 8 cylinder motor into the NSX. Sure, who doesn't like power (show of hands, anyone?) but at the same time, I have admired Honda for being a technology leader helping drive American consumers away from the "bigger is better" and "there ain't no replacement for displacement" mindset.

IMO, even a relatively efficient 8 cylinder engine is a step in the wrong direction. Porsche proved long ago that a flat 6 (and for a long time, an air-cooled one at that!) could make for a world class sports car when many scoffed and said that they were engineering a hopped up VW Beetle platform into certain extinction. In fact, there were dissenters in Porsche's own camp that agreed and saw the 911 as a dead-end precisely for this reason. To take on the bigger and faster exotics coming down the pipe, they argued, would certainly require a nice dose of V8 power. Well, the resulting 928 was no doubt a very capable car, but the test of time has favored the humble flat six (even if there was ultimately a concession to introduce a water cooled variant).

Sure, Honda could make a very fast NSX by dumping the equivalent of a brutish 5.7 liter LS1 style motor into the forthcoming NSX. Maybe with some creative tuning the gas mileage wouldn't be much worse. Maybe with an aluminum block the weight penalty wouldn't be too substantial. Maybe because it's a Honda, it would be just as reliable. However, this is an inelegant solution from the standpoint of an automaker that has led the field, like Porsche, in doing less with more.

I'd love to see Honda roll out a sub-3000 pound, shortened wheelbase NSX with a gem of a forced induction 4 cylinder motor with limitless tuning potential, but of course, then they would be building my current car.

-- DavidV

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[Orange240sx]

in my opinion, honda should produce an nsx w/ a form of forced induction from the factory. i know it's much harder to do so w/ a rear or mid engine car, as front mount intercoolers are very important to good front mounted engine turbo cars, but it IS possible to create an nsx that is turbo'ed with intercoolers that are efficiant. you could, for example, make a twin turbo v6 nsx w/ the intercoolers on the forward- sides of the engine, widen the rear fenders a bit, and drag the side flank inlay back so that passing air would go over the twin intercooled engine. with twin intercooling you don't NEED gigantic intercoolers, and i'm SURE the minds at honda could produce an intercooler designed specificaly for the aplication. the car would look slightly different, but not overly so. they would most likely water cool it, but then again if you have this car for a daily driver you have it for the wrong reasons. just my $.02 on how they should tackle the problem

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[Juice]

I doubt and truely fear that Honda will ever release a sports car with a turbo or SC in place. It simply is not the Honda way. I for one would hate the idea. Honda has become wise to the tuner market over the past 5 years. They know that America is their biggest suporter, has the most expendable income, and embraces the aftermarket. If Honda builds a sports car with forced induction, you can bet your bottom dollar that it will be nearly impossible to squeeze any more juice out of it than what comes from the factory. This is what Porsche does, and this makes Porsche fans happy. I for one like to play with my toys after I buy them, and in turn make them cooler than my friends toys!

You keep bringing up different Porsches, but fail to see the difference between the 2 companies. Actually, you fail to see the difference between 2 countries. It has been the way (and always will be) for the Japanese market to produce cars and then throw options at it for the next 7 years untill the model dies or (more likely) is replaced.

Walking around in Japan is a lesson all to itself. Not a damn car make or model drives past unmodified in some way. They have something for everyone, even the wife in the seemingly innocent minivan. It's just another one of their quirks. Germany... well, Germany sucks in this category. Yes, there are mods. No, you will never be able to afford them.

Is there anyone on this forum who has tricked out a 911 Turbo? And I mean engine mods. I don't mind being proven wrong.

 

[BoostedMR2]

Just to clarify my post a bit. That comment in the last line of my post was a self-referential tongue-in-cheek jab on my part, pointing some fun at the obvious similarities between my MR2 and the NSX. I am, of course, well aware that Honda will not elect to use any form of forced induction in the upcoming NSX or any of their other cars -- either here in North America or elsewhere. This has never been their practice just as BMW has never used forced induction on their cars. Some manufacturers believe in and use forced induction (Toyota, Mazda, Audi, VW, Subaru etc.) others don't (BMW, Honda). Simple as that.

That said, the spirit of my post was using Porsche as an example of why Honda should not compromise its engineering and design principles to drop a bigger lump of lead into the NSX's belly in a Quixotic attempt to satiate the seemingly endless demand for more power. Despite the virtues of the new M series cars, many BMW purists have come to lament that this endless pursuit of power at the expense of bigger and heavier engines (and the corresponding bigger and heavier brakes, suspension components, etc.) has cost the M3 its character. The 4 cylinder E30 M3 has achieved cult like devotion some 15 years after its introduction despite its (by modern standards) relatively underpowered 4-cylinder power plant. It is as if the E30 M3 has become increasingly more revered precisely as the big motor endowed E36 and E46 series cars put on the pork. I'm not knocking the E36 or E46 M3s, by the way. They are fantastic cars. However, there is a contingent that would have liked to see BMW follow Lotus' recent example of doing more with less (i.e. the Elise).

I used the Porsche example to illustrate the broader point of an automaker choosing to stay true to its ideology (and urging that Honda learn from Porsches mistakes): One faction within Porsche set out to prove the timelessness of the prosaic 911 and succeeded. The "forward" thinkers in that company who pushed for a V8 powered car for fear of the 911's impending "obsolescence" (several Porsche engineers and marketing guys expressed doubt that the 911 platforms continued viability as performance benchmark) were rebuffed by automotive history.

So, where does this leave the NSX? Again, show of hands: who wants more power? Right, everyone... Who wants more power if it means that Honda has to resort to a big displacement 8-cylinder engine? Right.

I don't need to preach to the choir and tell everyone here that it is the handcrafted aluminum body and use of exotic materials and leading edge technology that makes the NSX special. If 8-cylinder power was where it was at, everyone here would be driving a Corvette (and sadly some former NSX owners have likely jumped ship and bought a Z06 precisely because the lure of 8 cylinder big displacement power in a crude package was too much to resist).

That said, I would like to think NSX purists would push for Honda to drop the curb weight below 3000 pounds, keep the car affordable to those without Modena budgets, and make modest gains in the power department that translate into tremendous gains in performance through keeping the weight in check. No V8 needed. I for one would hate to see Honda make the NSX into the next 928.

Honda has proven time and time again that technology and creative engineering is a replacement for displacement, and I hope that the V8 idea finds its way to the trash heap precisely for this reason.

FYI, Juice: I haven't "failed" to see the difference between Germany and Japan. I am originally from Germany and can assure you that there is a tremendous tuning market there for VWs, Audis, BMWs, Porsches, you name it. Sure, a smaller portion of the public can afford $100k forced induction Porsche to tinker with, but you are mistaken if you think Germans don't enjoy turning up the boost on their turbo equipped VWs and Audis. As far as Tokyo goes, yep, been there too and guess what? It is not Gran Turismo. There, like here (or anywhere) most consumers leave their cars stock or add mild enhancements and a smaller percentage of devout enthusiasts do the more serious tuning.

-- DavidV

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[This message has been edited by BoostedMR2 (edited 02 July 2002).]

 

[Juice]

Didn't mean to point or ruffle any feathers. And I did understand your point quite clearly. But I have to disagree on one thing: Japan does tune the $#!+ out of their cars! I know, I know. Europe does too. But after traveling from Tokyo to Hiroshima and stoping in nearly every city in between, I couldn't help but laugh at (and waste a treamendous amount of film on) all the cars and vans with some sort of mod in place. I really can't say much for Tokyo because most of my time was spent under ground. Oh well, maybe I just noticed it more because I found most of their vehicles humorous and strangely desirable.

By the way, has any one else seen the big-rig trucks that they fix up with all types of crazy chrome and lights for an extremely gawdy effect? Makes the Oscar Meyer wienermobile look tame in comparison.