Anyone else tired of slow windows?

[jrehner]

I decided to resurrect this older thread as I have had recurring window issue and my door handle just broke and have to piddle with that anyway. (waiting for Science of Speed to get the Billet Door Repair Kit in to fix that)

Anyway, I cleaned the rear door channel first and there was little grease in it and also looked at the center channel adjacent to the two vertical wires that the window thingie is usually found (I have the newer regulator and the component is the plastic with the metal surrounding it and so that is not the issue). I have the Honda super high temp urea grease and put some in both areas. Had removed the window switch from the console and operated the window to see how the glass rides...

As everyone always reports, the glass goes down the track smoothly but going up sticks anywhere from about 1/2 to 3/4 up. The grease in the two channels just indicated made little difference. To get it moving again one has to pull up on the glass and at same time push towards the rear (so at mirror side of the glass I pull up and push toward the rear of car). The glass actually moves toward the rear when u do this and yet the glass is held firmly by the two bolt assemblies that hold the glass to the whatever the assembly it is that's moving the glass up and down--it's the assembly itself that will rock in place..

Okay, I then removed the speaker and looked (well felt actually) the front window channel.. Now it had quite a bit of old grease in it and I removed and regreased and window operated better but still would not go all the way up without help for the most part. I felt around inside at point where the sticking occurred--there is a wiring harness that the exterior side of the glass brushes against as it moves upward (downward also obviously but read on).

Also on my door glass and something I don't see in my factory 93 manual, there is glued to the door glass, 1/4" high rubber channel weatherstripping---This is glued to the exterior side of the glass and so when I put my hand in there it would be between the outside door panel and the back side of the glass viewed from the interior of the car---this rubber doesn't go all the way along the bottom exterior edge of the glass but only about 6" worth===it's not even in a straight line along the edge--So picture a square piece of glass in front of you and at the bottom right on the other side of the square the rubber begins a few inches up from the lower right corner. Now the rubber from there goes at a 45 degree angle towards the bottom of the square for about 4" or so until it's about at the bottom edge. It then goes an inch or so parallel with the bottom edge of the square and there it ends.

Well this rubber channel has thickness and has a channel to it. to maybe catch water coming down the glass and take it away from the front vertical section of the glass when the window is in the up position. The lip of this rubber channel could catch and certainly does brush against the wiring harness present (maybe enough to cause the left side of the glass to rise faster than the right side--like a teeter totter pushing the right side down and the left up). This would account for having to pull up and push or pull (depending on your perspective--sitting in your freakin car u would have your left hand forward to the glass and be pulling up and back towards you) towards the the door latch portion of the door to get the glass moving upwards again.

Now the only way I see this happening is that center mechanism that where the glass is held by it --that mechanism does tilt up or down if u pull up or push down on the glass----The channels don't flex--and it's weird to me that the center channel adjacent to the vertical wires is definitely curved and it's at the most outward portion (towards the exterior of the car) where the slowdown typically begins- that could just be a coincidence.

well that's what I see--maybe someone more technical can put a name to it or explain why the rubber channel is present when it doesn't show in the manual. But I can't see any other reason for there being a problem on the way up when there is no problem on the way down--that rubber channel--now I could remove it but since I don't know it's purpose in life and since it is on the side of the glass away from me--it would be hard to reglue back in place if it turned out to actually have a reason for being..

 

[Jett]

I also have a problem with the 2 windows, the left window (pilot) goes up completely through and I must guide it with the hand to be able to close the door. The windows passenger does not go up more, I can reduce it but it does not go up, I think that for this window, it is an electric problem, but for that of the pilot, it is more serious, that is necessary it to buy like parts to make repair?

Driver's side (pilot) window needs adjusting and lubrication, preferably by a knowledgable and skilled NSX technician.

Passenger side (co-pilot?) problem is most likely in the driver's side power window master switch assembly, part number 35750-SL0-A01ZA for a 1994 US-spec NSX.

 

[jrehner]

Ah Jett--the person u are quoting is from august---however, nsx techs don't seem to be able to do the job well either as I mentioned in my post resurrecting this thread. Besides the glass doesn't require help pushing the opposite way going down and so should have no problem going up without aid. It looks to me more like an obstruction on the way up which affects the front side (towards front of car) and not the rear which makes the drive mechanism tilt and it does tilt like a see saw/teeter totter cause I have watched it do so with the panel off while operating the window..

 

[Jett]

Ah Jett--the person u are quoting is from august...

The reason for that is...that I was responding to the question from August.:smile:

...however, nsx techs don't seem to be able to do the job well either...

This is why I can only recommend a "knowledgable and skilled NSX technician", which can be hard to come by, especially overseas.

Besides the glass doesn't require help pushing the opposite way going down and so should have no problem going up without aid. It looks to me more like an obstruction on the way up which affects the front side (towards front of car) and not the rear which makes the drive mechanism tilt and it does tilt like a see saw/teeter totter cause I have watched it do so with the panel off while operating the window...

Well, it gets a gravity assist on the way down, but I generally agree with your conclusions - the window does tilt inside the frame. When binding, the window will come up faster if you pull up and back on the top front (curved) corner of the glass itself. This only lasts for a few inches and then it tilts out of whack again. Of course, if the window was functioning correctly, you wouldn't have to do this. My driver's side window binds in just the fashion you mention, but the passenger window does a lot better, which tells me that over time and more usage the driver's side window gets out of alignment inside the door. The slow rollup problem is particularly aggravated by cold weather, indicating a combination of factors: dried out grease and poor adjustment. It appears that those who have replaced the window regulators still have the same problem, so it isn't the regulator, insomuch as it is the lube and adjustment.

To the best of my recollection from the last time I was inside my door panels, the window tilt/travel is somewhat guided/limited by "bumpers" that affect the direction of travel of the window.

Maybe, if you were armed with all of the research you can do on NSXPrime, and removed the door and carefully observed its operation, you would be able to deduce exactly why it tilts the way you describe. If you find a silver-bullet type of solution, please let me know, but I think it is more of a matter of lubing the heck out of the shafts and trial-and-erroring the window back into adjustment. In other words, no easy one-step fix, but hours spent lubing and adjusting.

Good luck with it. Let us know how it turns out.

 

[jrehner]

well I do have the door panel removed and observed its function and described my conclusions---I think Mark Basch is a very good tech, unfortunately, one of the mechanics who worked for him at the time did the work and apparently only did a short term fix (ie made no adjustment to the rails etc).

 

[RYU]

Based on previous experience from various other cars... My 4-5 secs up time doesn't bother me enough to try it on my NSX... YET!

1. Use Silicone Spray adhesive on the window guides and Honda Shin-Etsu grease on moving parts and the tracks.
2. Adding a piggy-back relay will work assuming Honda used inadequate wiring. The best way to test this quickly is to run a low gauge wire (i'd say try at least a fused 10g wire) directly to the (+) terminal on the battery to the positive supply wire on the window switch to get clean, ample power. If you notice increased speed then hypothesis holds true. Next is the b*tch part: You need to run a low gauge wire (maybe at least 12-14g wire?) in through the door jam wire loom that's a switched (+12v) - worse yet if there is no loom then you need to drill a hole . This makes wiring the relay seem easy in comparison.

note: If you do #2 and not #1 then you run the risk of burning up your window motors prematurely.

Now someone test this and let us know!

 

[Jett]

I think Mark Basch is a very good tech

Although I don't have any personal experience with him, based on everything I have read, I absolutely agree.

...I do have the door panel removed and observed its function and described my conclusions...

I am not personally familiar with the rubber channel you mention, as I have yet to personally tackle my slow windows. (I may try and speak with Charlie at the Car Doctor {Falls Church, VA} to see if he can do anything with this, as he is the most knowledgable and skilled NSX technician that I know of in my area.) Are you able to tell exactly why the window tilts, or exactly what needs to be adjusted? Or is it a matter of just fiddling with everything, because everything affects everything else?

If you could figure out specifically what is going on in there, it would be extremely useful information - a lot better than just concluding that "it needs to be adjusted" - which is the best I can come up with. I know that it needs to be adjusted, but I don't know exactly where, what, why, or how.

 

[sparky]

Can we answer this calibration question, and it would be especially helpful to hear from those who have windows working just fine:

How much does you window move around? If you put window most of the way down, with just a hand width protruding, then grab window and tilt it forwards then backwards, how much does it move horizontally along the seal at the top edge of the door?

Both my windows move about 1/4" in this test (one window is working, one isn't) I'm thinking 1/4" may well prove quite normal but if others can confirm then we would have a simple way of testing if there's a problem with guides or not.

If guides are OK and 1/4" tilt in the test is normal, then I would reckon the solution is per Larry's B's suggestion (i.e. re-grease the system properly)

(Like most reporting this problem: my drivers window gets stuck 1/2 to 3/4 way up, at which point I have to grab the window on top edge and tilt it backwards, then it goes up unassisted.)

 

[sparky]

The issue is one of maintenance. The grease in the tracks will get caked and bind the "pads" on the windows. I remove the windows, remove the tracks, clean everything carefully, regrease with Honda grease, and all is well for another 8+ years.

Larry ... is it at all possible to do this without doing the whole huge window out procedure? I've got my door inner skin off and I can get my hands onto the slides so I'm reckoning some patient cleaning out of the old grease, and applying new, perhaps with a fine toothbrush or similar?

My question is mainly about what to clean the old dead grease out with - does it dissolve with Petrol perhaps? White spirit ? Hoping I'm not barking up the wrong tree, 'cos I really don't want to pull the galss out - such a big job, with potential for suffering that full realignment procedure.

 

[DarthMaul]

There is a lot of adjustment on the window rail. if the adjustment is right there is less friction to the glass and it will go up faster. I have adjusted my driver side and it goes up better than before.

It took me about 1 hour to adjust one window. it is a pain. you have to get the angle just right to kiss the rubber seal and yet not too much to create friction to the glass. Lube dont help as much as if you get the angles right.

 

[jrehner]

Well from my observation I can rule out flexing of the glass channels and strength of the motor. When it goes up, it actually gets stuck and the motor continues to work to get it past that point but one has to pull up from the front and back to the rear to unstick the glass at which point the motor will then continue to move the glass upwards.

I have watched it stick twice and other times just once and sometimes go all the way up--I would think if it were a matter of adjustment the problem would be the same each and every time. I am going to look more closely at the obstruction issue I brought up but I can only feel that rather than see it. I have my hand at the bottom of the glass and can feel the wiring harness touch the glass and this rubber strip glued to the glass while with my other hand I operate the control to make the window go up. I will try to push the harness completely out of way and see if the tilt that causes the sticking still occurs--This harness is between the glass and the exterior door panel where there is little room. Anyway it gots to be either adjustment or an obstruction where the window thingie is not an issue and one has newer regulator

 

[Larry Bastanza]

Larry ... is it at all possible to do this without doing the whole huge window out procedure? I've got my door inner skin off and I can get my hands onto the slides so I'm reckoning some patient cleaning out of the old grease, and applying new, perhaps with a fine toothbrush or similar?

My question is mainly about what to clean the old dead grease out with - does it dissolve with Petrol perhaps? White spirit ? Hoping I'm not barking up the wrong tree, 'cos I really don't want to pull the galss out - such a big job, with potential for suffering that full realignment procedure.

You can teach us all something if you can do it without taking the tracks and glass out. I have used the "spray stuff" method, but it only lasts a little while. To regrease it properly, it needs to come out, from my experience.

HTH,
LarryB

 

[jrehner]

Well I just came back from Science of Speed--got the door billet repair kit and they looked at the window operation and said it's a matter of the motor strength and said the test was using two fingers to help the window on its way up and if it did so then issue is weak motor--so ppl above with ideas to make the motor stronger appear to be the winners,

I note one other thing--when I was operating the window with the panel out etc watching the operation, I did so with the engine off and it typically needed help once or twice to get all the way up BUT I decided to operate the window with the engine on and the window goes all the way up without help--I can still see a tilting motion to the glass as it progresses upward but it moved steadily upward and without stopping.

I did not remove the channels to clean them. I cleaned the channels out by taking a cotton rag and running it down inside each channel. I put my finger in the channel to determine how clean it was--where there was some dried on grease I used a small flathead screwdriver and ran it where the problem areas were and that cleaned up the remainder--I then regreased with the Honda Super High Temp Urea grease.

So the window still comes down lickity spit and goes up rather less quickly but without help (with the engine running). The Science of Speed tech was not aware of the purpose of the rubber channel glued to the glass other than someone's idea to possibly drain water better but he did not look at that once he saw the window come up and helped using two fingers.

 

[mdlegend]

Re: Anyone else tired of slow windows?---Or stopped going up..

Hello all,
My 91 that I have had for 2.5 years has performed without fail...The driver window has always been a little slow......Now, the window goes down but it only goes up about 4 inches. Then I have to push the window switch up and it goes up 1/8 of inch at a time for maybe 1 inch. then I have to push the switch up and grab the top of the window to make it close. So the car will sit until I get if figured out as I am worried to have the window down and have to not be able to close it if I am out. my question is....

do I need a window regulator?
A window motor?
or is it the window grease thing that I have read about here in nsx prime?
the regulator at $500 plus is $$$$$$$$ so if I need it I will buy it but I am not that sure. Thanks for everyones time and help.....I have 1 of only 2 NSX's in Delaware that are RED as well....little fact....

Mike

 

[jrehner]

mIke mike MIKE--did u read this whole thread before posting--I think not. U will have to remove your door panel to inspect the plastic glide to see if it is broken. But I bet it has already been replaced with one that has metal all the way around it or is solid metal. If that is the case then cleaning and regreasing the channels will likely bring back proper operation of the glass but u will need to also remove the speaker to clean/lube the front channel.

There are also threads on door panel removal one of which is mine--if u have a factory manual u can follow that but for the last part--then look at my recent thread before this one.

 

[sparky]

If the window tracks are out of alignment, someone made them that way, mainly by not following the procedure when removing them. The other possibility is that someone removed the pads and lost or misplaced the alignment shims for each pad from the factory, although I have been able to get every one to align, by adjusting the rails.

OK I have the Window and rails out, and only now do I understand what Larry means by "alignment shims". The attached image shows the four window slides, aligned vertically as they sit in the rails.

Firstly note they’re NOT ALL THE SAME.The yellow-ish one is different, being a tad over 29mm wide it is almost a snug fit to the internal track width (30mm). But the other three (white-ish ones) are much narrower, about 26mm. According to the Acura parts exploded diagram the yellow-ish one (#7) goes on front rail, lower attachment point. (I didn’t notice they were different until I had cleaned them off, doh!)

The "alignment shims" are look like ordinary washers on the threaded sections, but it’s easy to be deceived, the parts list reveal these (#24) come in two thicknesses 0.3mm and 0.5mm, and quantity listed is “AR” which I take to mean “As Required”. Hence you can choose a thickness to improve alignment. (although this seems strange given alignment screw adjustment ranges are much more that 0.3 or 0.5 mm ??)

But I have a question – what is the factory standard fitment for these shims (i.e. quantity and thickness)? e.g. were there none on a new car? Problem is I only came to understand shims after I’d pulled these apart and cleaned them!

 

[Larry Bastanza]

But I have a question – what is the factory standard fitment for these shims (i.e. quantity and thickness)? e.g. were there none on a new car? Problem is I only came to understand shims after I’d pulled these apart and cleaned them!

Sorry to say, but only the guy on the Factory assembly line knows for sure:biggrin:. What I do is make sure I put them where they were before disassembly. Again, I have been able to get the windows working well by adjusting the rails, when needed. I will say that "adjustment" does add a completely different aspect to this job.

Regards,
LarryB

 

[sparky]

Sorry to say, but only the guy on the Factory assembly line knows for sure:biggrin:.

I thought that might be the case, so took a punt and the window is working fine now, without having to do adjustment.

As an aside I have a suggestion as to why the slides are spring loaded "vertically". Look closely at the attached picture of slide from side on. The sprung "piston" in at quite an angle to the slide body, which has the effect of thickening the slide inside the guide. I reckon this is to get a snug fit.

Speaking to a very experienced car repairer he offered this interesting shortcut for adjusting windows. After re-assembly, put a strip of newspaper between the glass and rubber seal when fully up. You should be able to pull paper out slowly without ripping it. If it tears, or pulls out too easy, adjustment is needed. Repeat this at a few points around window edge and only adjust if necessary. This avoids the whole window moulding removal / tedious measurement scenario. Sounds like a gem to me.

 

[greenberet]

It would be interesting to adjust the windows like that and then remove the window seal to check how close you actually got to the factory specs. If it works, it would save a lot of time. If it doesn't get you to the factory specs, I'd probably stick to the service manual.

 

[sparky]

It would be interesting to adjust the windows like that [using newspaper strips] and then remove the window seal to check how close you actually got to the factory specs. If it works, it would save a lot of time. If it doesn't get you to the factory specs, I'd probably stick to the service manual.

At the end of the factory procedure it suggests you double check that the seal is actually waterproof with a hose. In other words even the factory acknowledges there are numerous manufacturing tolerances [body structure, rubber size etc] that the simple gap measurement may not account for. The newspaper trick and then double check with a hose strikes me as a pragmatic test that potentially saves heaps of time and effort in preparing for measurement (e.g. pulling the mouldings off) and doing the measurement. In the end all that matters is the window goes up and down and seals properly.

So for mine the only time the full measurement procedure would make sense would be a major door rebuild, where the original window alignment has been lost completely.

 

[greenberet]

My windows needed to be adjusted a few years ago after I adjusted the door strikers to get a more solid sounding thunk when closing the doors. My local Honda NSX dealership said they could adjust the windows without removing the window seals so I figured great, that will save a lot of work. I don't know what procedure they used, but the passenger window had an air leak at high speeds afterwards.

I adjusted the windows myself then following the procedure in the service manual, taking apart half of the interior so that I could remove the window seals. The windows were out of spec in both dimensions at just about all points – the top was too high yet too far away from the body, the front of the window was too far towards the rear yet too close to the body, etc. After adjusting the windows in both dimensions according to the service manual, they went up easier and the high speed air leak was gone.

If the newspaper strip method works as well, it would definitely save a lot of time.