Arizona's Immigration Policy

[Nukem]

Let me start saying that I agree that the law is the law, and this whole situation must be resolved, via immigration reform that in my opinion should be based on merit x personal responsibilities (but that is a different monster/discussion), about the Arizona Policy here is what I think.

I believe that the biggest question is:

What constitutes a "person" to be "hispanic" or what is the criteria to be stopped by "la migra" and now, by any law enforcement agent? not only been stopped but you should have all your papers verified IN SITE

One detail we all forget is that "hispanic" means a LOT of diverse groups, been one myself I can say that we are a complete diverse group, starting with the original native americans that compose in countries like Mexico or even Bolivia 85% of the population.

My grandpa was first generation immigrant on the country I am from, half german, half spaniard, very "gringo" looking as people joke south of the border, my grandmother is your average spanish looking person (very pretty btw) .. so some people in my family look very european some very what we call spanish (read below).

Now here comes the funny part:

vs

Both above can be considered "spanish" "hispanic" "latino" or w/e the hell you want to call it ...

Guess who is going to be stopped and be paper inquired? ....

So basically if you are a spanish person, but if you look european, or east european or mediterranean you are basically FINE, legal or Illegal, but if you look like an indian from mexico (or any indigenous descent), YOU WILL BE STOPPED, isn't that a DOUBLE STANDARD?

Isn't that hypocrisy or perhaps discrimination?

I lived in Brazil for 12 years and I have traveled around this vast and beautiful world, but particularly in South america in countries like Brazil or Argentina, there's a HUGE population of anglo-saxon people and Italians, and Spaniards, and Portuguese etc .. but if you are "indigenous" you are also going to be discriminated, believe me I see that ALL THE TIME been done and is very sad ..

That is what bothers me about this whole new concept, is wrong, is terribly baddy approached, the IRONY is that it comes on a time that we have an African-American president .. how WEIRD IS THAT, Am I DREAMING? AM I AWAKE?? Is this really happening?? WTF? ...

Oscar

Well everyone should be able to produce something that shows they are here legally, no matter if your white, hispanic, white, asian, or martian. If what Arizona is doing is wrong in your opinion, what should they do? As far as profiling the only way to do away with it is check everyone. Now sometimes Racial profiling is nessecary. Say for example a islamic extremist, Your probably going to look for someone of middle eastern decent. Or if someone is running around in white sheets burning crosses in yards, probably going to look for a white person.

 

[sahtt]

#1 income for mexico are the remittances from US. they want to come here as they please, work and send all the money back.
besides, most of them are fully convinced that ca, az and nm are their land stolen by us anyway so they deserve being here.

And right behind remittances is drug money. While not taxed directly, hundreds of billions enter the Mexican real estate sectors among others directly from drug trade. In addition, everyone involved still buys goods with the money and pays sales tax. Mexico has no incentive to stop drug trade or illegal immigration. They will always claim they are 'fighting' this issues but listen to their formal statements by government officials; they are quick to blame us for both issues and use whatever means necessary (insult our methodology, call us barbaric) to continue mass remittances and drug trade.

The reason this entire conversation is taking place and why Arizona is where it is today is because of past failures by the government. Try making it into China illegally and participating at all in the economic system. Try landing in Britain and getting a job at a bakery in London-not going to happen. By allowing mass entry into the country-by governements and the businesses and individual citizens that employ them-we are faced with a situation that cannot be resolved in a manner we would all like. U.S. citizens have paid who knows how much in straight cash to employ illegals for various jobs. Businesses from construction to general labor "hired" these individuals and gave them the ability to sustain nice lives here. Governments climbed mountains to make sure they all got settled, could read everything that used to be in only english, could understand public announcements that used to be in only english, make all paperwork available in spanish, even get driver's licenses as an openly illegal residents. After it's realized our unfunded entitlement programs are literally bankrupting our nation and will force us insolvent in probably about a decade, tens of thousands of uninsured illegals cause auto accidents and simply drive away, and millions of americans once supposedly too stuck up for regular labor jobs are desperate for employment (this is an insulting fallacy I have never agreed with, that americans think they are 'too good' for the jobs illegals have and wouldn't do them. I mowed lawns all throughout highschool and have a lot of friends now that can't even get buss boy jobs while having college degrees) people are getting tired of it.

Are there legal and liberty issues surrounding what Arizona has passed? Yes. But they are generally way over exaggerated. If I'm not mistaken, you cannot use profiling alone to do anything. It has to be in conjuction with something else concrete. I.e., if you find drugs in a house and there are 33 people that all look pretty hispanic, don't speak a word of english, and are sleeping in the living room, that's probably grounds to check their immigration status.

It's sad it's even come to this. But if let 20-30,000,000 come into a nation that is generous with social services and an extremely strict legal structure that makes restitution difficult, eventually it's going to cause some strain.

 

[NSXrunner]

The whole immigration thing is old news IMO. I have been profiled all my life, I just go with the flow. I accept that I am not white, I accept people think I am hispanic, I accept some doors will not be opened for me because of said stereotypes. It is what it is. (they just freak out when I start talking filipino and give them a blank look when they ask me something in spanish) I know I immigrated to this country and I am happy to now be a citizen. The one thing that pisses me off about some of these people is that they claim to love this country, yet they NEVER learned the language. I am sorry but if I am planning to move to another country I better damn well learn its language and laws, if you don't want to spend the time doing so, then you really want nothing to do with said country and you are just in it for yourself and your pocketbook. If that's the case, box their ass up and ship them back to where they came from.

2 cents.

 

[White92]

I also don't buy the argument that they can have amnesty because they've paid taxes here for awhile and had a few kids too.

If I found a piece of land that wasn't mine, built a house on it, raised a family in it, worked and paid taxes it doesn't mean it's mine. What I did was illegal and I should be removed from that land when the owner comes along and found out what I did. The owner isn't going to let me stay just because I want to, wasn't causing problems or that I had paid my taxes.

 

[sahtt]

I also don't buy the argument that they can have amnesty because they've paid taxes here for awhile and had a few kids too.

If I found a piece of land that wasn't mine, built a house on it, raised a family in it, worked and paid taxes it doesn't mean it's mine. What I did was illegal and I should be removed from that land when the owner comes along and found out what I did. The owner isn't going to let me stay just because I want to, wasn't causing problems or that I had paid my taxes.

Not to mention most only pay SS and medicare (although I don't know why they would all be paying those taxes, makes more sense to pay them cash). Is there anyway I can drop the income tax and only pay SS+medicare? Can I have my back taxes in the form of a late model Ferrari? Didn't think so. And for the record, few people under 30 are going to see more than a fraction of what they put into medicare and SS.

 

[FogCityNSX]

My family came here the right way in the mid 70's, filled out the paperwork, paid its dues in taxes and military service. Everyone is now college educated and owns at least 1 home each with their own sweat and tears.

If they can't do it the right way, then get them the hell outta here. My family hiked through a jungle. Swam a wide muddy River. Lived in an refugee camp and waited till our family in america finished the paperwork required and paid the appropriate fees. Then flew over the pacific ocean and landed in california to live with our family until we got established just a few years later and struck out on our own.

I know situations are different between mexican immigrants and other country's immigrants but still. Be legal or be gone.

 

[H-carWizKid]

OK, so lets end the "profiling" aspect- just give everyone a national ID card. make obtaining it as easy as going to city hall, registering with the clerk with your birth certificate on your 18th birthday. If you get busted doing anything, regardless of race- White, Black, Hispanic, or Asian, Male / Female doesn't matter- you have to present the card to the LEO for verification.

There no more profiling. I have no problem with that. Do you?

Seriously, I am all about the American Dream for folks willing to immigrate legally. My Father in Law is from the UK, and I have friends at my gym who are from Brazil, I don't begrudge them in any way. For that matter I don't begrudge Mexican citizens who want to come here- just do it the right way man. Follow the fucking rules.

As for the current backlash in Arizona- I'd love to go set up a tent on a Phoenix Suns players lawn and see how long he waits before he gets my ass kicked off his property for trespass.

That IS what we are dealing with here- Trespassers.

P

 

[FogCityNSX]

If you get busted doing anything, regardless of race- White, Black, Hispanic, or Asian, Male / Female doesn't matter- you have to present the card to the LEO for verification.

I'm thinking we already have that, driver's license or:

Identification (ID) cards

DMV issues ID cards to persons of any age. The ID card looks like a driver license, but is used for identification purposes only. A regular ID card is valid for six years, and a senior citizen ID card is valid for 10 years. To qualify for a senior citizen ID card, you must be age 62 or older.

http://www.dmv.ca.gov/idinfo/idcard.htm

 

[H-carWizKid]

I'm thinking we already have that, driver's license or:

Identification (ID) cards

DMV issues ID cards to persons of any age. The ID card looks like a driver license, but is used for identification purposes only. A regular ID card is valid for six years, and a senior citizen ID card is valid for 10 years. To qualify for a senior citizen ID card, you must be age 62 or older.

http://www.dmv.ca.gov/idinfo/idcard.htm

OK. So you have to present your ID- I was thinking of something more standardized, but WTF its all the same to me. The point still stands- I have no problem presenting my ID if/when I get busted for breaking the law. That isn't profiling, it is checking my credentials.

P

 

[AR]

And right behind remittances is drug money. While not taxed directly, hundreds of billions enter the Mexican real estate sectors among others directly from drug trade.

Who is buying the drugs from the Mexican Cartels?

 

[swerve2007]

I just want to point out 2 very common and erroneous beliefs:
1) that they receive public services (healthcare, schooling, etc)

not being confrontational but you are incorrect- the hospitals here accept everyone and as soon as they figure out you can't pay you get offered 'access' coverage (paid by az taxes). i know it first-hand and for sure.

 

[swerve2007]

I know I immigrated to this country and I am happy to now be a citizen. The one thing that pisses me off about some of these people is that they claim to love this country, yet they NEVER learned the language. I am sorry but if I am planning to move to another country I better damn well learn its language and laws, if you don't want to spend the time doing so, then you really want nothing to do with said country and you are just in it for yourself and your pocketbook. If that's the case, box their ass up and ship them back to where they came from.

2 cents.

right on, good attitude.

just the other day at work i was trying to communicate with a mexican-american immigrant that has been living here for 25 years. eventually i had to resort to an interpreter just to be told that they are proud that they are making us speak spanish! i am telling you guys, this has nothing to do with rights or profiling but with some weird passive-aggressive mindset they have developed. i was dead-serious when i said that they really do treat these lands as theirs- the fact that they lost them in a war 200 years ago means nothing. we are the intruders, not them.

 

[Biscuit]

So my question is this. Why does the president keep misstating what this bill does? Its a simply written few page bill that clearly states if you are here illegally youre under arrest. No id no go. It also specifcally states that there can be no profiling involved in the arrest what so ever. The contact has to be associated with already established laws that all of the countrys law enforcement must abide by.

So again i ask why does he and everyone else who is opposed to this law keep lying about what the law says?

Is he ignorant or is he lying to further his own political agenda to support his voter base?

 

[swerve2007]

Who is buying the drugs from the Mexican Cartels?

i know, it is time to grow our own and end this hipocrisy.

 

[swerve2007]

That is what bothers me about this whole new concept, is wrong, is terribly baddy approached, the IRONY is that it comes on a time that we have an African-American president .. how WEIRD IS THAT, Am I DREAMING? AM I AWAKE?? Is this really happening?? WTF? ...

Oscar

dear oscar,
please notice that this whole profiling thing came out of the mouths of people opposed to the law- it is all a generalization and speculation. furthermore i will confirm that all of us terrible white folks are just as pissed at god as you are that we all look different because we are really, really tired of this race card being played over and over.
and i will bet my nsx that if you get pulled over for speeding, produce your id and converse politely in english (or even broken english) you will go home soon after with no issues.

 

[swerve2007]

So my question is this. Why does the president keep misstating what this bill does? Its a simply written few page bill that clearly states if you are here illegally youre under arrest. No id no go. It also specifcally states that there can be no profiling involved in the arrest what so ever. The contact has to be associated with already established laws that all of the countrys law enforcement must abide by.

So again i ask why does he and everyone else who is opposed to this law keep lying about what the law says?

Is he ignorant or is he lying to further his own political agenda to support his voter base?

bingo- he was strongly supported by hispanic population in the elections and he cannot 'lose-face' by 'allowing' this to happen. he 'has to be fair' and make noise.

 

[passline]

Regardless of who is residing in the White House, the agenda at the time will always be politically motivated.

 

[SilverStone05]

Now here comes the funny part:

vs

Both above can be considered "spanish" "hispanic" "latino" or w/e the hell you want to call it ...

Guess who is going to be stopped and be paper inquired? ....

So basically if you are a spanish person, but if you look european, or east european or mediterranean you are basically FINE, legal or Illegal, but if you look like an indian from mexico (or any indigenous descent), YOU WILL BE STOPPED, isn't that a DOUBLE STANDARD?

Isn't that hypocrisy or perhaps discrimination?

I lived in Brazil for 12 years and I have traveled around this vast and beautiful world, but particularly in South america in countries like Brazil or Argentina, there's a HUGE population of anglo-saxon people and Italians, and Spaniards, and Portuguese etc .. but if you are "indigenous" you are also going to be discriminated, believe me I see that ALL THE TIME been done and is very sad ..

That is what bothers me about this whole new concept, is wrong, is terribly baddy approached, the IRONY is that it comes on a time that we have an African-American president .. how WEIRD IS THAT, Am I DREAMING? AM I AWAKE?? Is this really happening?? WTF? ...

Oscar

While i'm sure South America and Europe have contributed some illegal aliens to our country, I don't have to go research the statistics to logically infer that the vast majority of illegals come from Mexico. The geographical location of Mexico in relation to the U.S. is enough information.

So-

The situation is what it is....it isn't racist...it's just logic.

What IS racist, however, is that you would think simply because our president is a member of minority group...that the passage of a bill regarding the safety and soundness of our immigration standards wouldn't be possible.

This bill isn't about what's good for one race, ethnicity or group.

It's about what's good for the country.

 

[sahtt]

Who is buying the drugs from the Mexican Cartels?

What's the square root of 16?

 

[MetalSpikeRacing]

Wow the coments on this thread, Poor Mexicans.

So this bill only and finally exposes what americas have been feeling forever but never had the chance express wide open!

Get out you illigal alien!!, and I think you guys are right...till certain point.

To tell you the true I really feel for my people, they must have to be in such a distres to be willing to move to the states legally or illigally

I know that I would never consider moving to the states(no ofence).
I'd preffer to starve(LOL) eating shrimp tacos right next to this beautiful ocean under this beautiful sun.

Illigals and drugs are old topic, and the only way to fix this is from the source and no, in this case the source is not where drugs and illigals are coming from.
The source in this case is called demand, america have to stop solicting illigal cheap labor and have to either stop comsuming that good cocaina and mariguana or start producing your own-maybe that would be the secret to make drugs legal -

In other words if there is no demand, I sure would stop making a supply that nobody will buy.
But america love having their drugs...while watching pedro cut thier grass for...what is it? a buck an hour? if they are luck right?

In other hands this is for you illigal NSXPRIMER,

Learn the rules and lenguage at least and make your self legal,
that wont help with the awefull filling you have when you hear others talk about your people in such a discriminatory way, but at least you will get to stay.

-MSR

 

[SilverStone05]

Wow the coments on this thread, Poor Mexicans.

So this bill only and finally exposes what americas have been feeling forever but never had the chance express wide open!

Get out you illigal alien!!, and I think you guys are right...till certain point.

To tell you the true I really feel for my people, they must have to be in such a distres to be willing to move to the states legally or illigally

I know that I would never consider moving to the states(no ofence).
I'd preffer to starve(LOL) eating shrimp tacos right next to this beautiful ocean under this beautiful sun.

Illigals and drugs are old topic, and the only way to fix this is from the source and no, in this case the source is not where drugs and illigals are coming from.
The source in this case is called demand, america have to stop solicting illigal cheap labor and have to either stop comsuming that good cocaina and mariguana or start producing your own-maybe that would be the secret to make drugs legal -

In other words if there is no demand, I sure would stop making a supply that nobody will buy.
But america love having their drugs...while watching pedro cut thier grass for...what is it? a buck an hour? if they are luck right?

In other hands this is for you illigal NSXPRIMER,

Learn the rules and lenguage at least and make your self legal,
that wont help with the awefull filling you have when you hear others talk about your people in such a discriminatory way, but at least you will get to stay.

-MSR

Discriminatory, eh?

So when I'm visiting Cancun and none of the tourist vendors will break a twenty and give me Americans dollars that isn't discriminatory?

Or when the locals refuse to speak English, even though they can, that isn't discriminatory? Good thing i'm fluent in Spanish, eh?

Or when american citizens are targeted by YOUR police, and thrown into jails and denied rights because they are "drunk arrogant americans" that isn't discriminatory?

Hypocritical much?

I don't care if you're brown, black, pink, red or blue.

If you're in this country illegally, you should be escorted directly out. Period.

 

[swerve2007]

from the long list of generalizations i will pick one-
nobody went to mexico to kidnap landscapers to make them work for a buck/hr. you are forgetting that most of these folks are employed by their countrymen, not 'whites', and they have purposely been undercutting prices to get rid of competition, which they did. the result is that there are almost no 'white' landscapers left in az and the price they charge is just as high as anywhere else.
there is a place and time for everyone, for instance:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100510...lYwN5bl90b3Bfc3RvcmllcwRzbGsDZmFybWVyc2ltbWln

i wonder how long would canadian hospitals in vancouver survive if 20% of their patients did not pay (or their taxes etc)?
or why do i have to send my kid to a private school because the public one i pay for is rated the 'worst in the country' as they have to concentrate on teaching english instead of normal curriculum?
to claim that mexicans are persecuted because they get scathed for 'taking advantage' of their geographical location is another pile of bs.

 

[Alas-NSX]

Everytime I read posts like this I think of this.

I'd like to see all illegal "aliens", including the ones in Area 51, leave the good old United States of America. We would solve all of our unemployment issues in this country with one single blow.

Just think of it, whites and blacks working in harmony picking fresh produce, cleaning our houses, cutting our grass, cleaning our pools, taking care of our kids, cleaning our offices, building our homes and The Giant Wall of the USA and all for just minimum wage. It would be wonderful. Who am I kidding the whites would just make every non-white do these jobs and then kick them at.

Wait a minute! This won't work. We are too busy getting fat watching The Biggest Loser and wondering where our entitlement check is at.

I want to see real issues get addressed, for instance why all our high-tech jobs and manufacturing continue to get moved overseas. At this rate they'll probably all come back when we become the next low cost region.

 

[MetalSpikeRacing]

SilverStone05,

I am so sorry the lady at the taco stand didn't give you US money back that's is very discriminatory!!!

Drunk arrogant Americans or and other person from any country thinking that they can do whatever they want just because they are drunk or stupid, should be sent to spent a beautiful night in our special suite.

My self, I've sent a few drunkies for a night getaway when I used to managed the club, maybe it was you and that's why you have all this anger.

Anyways, you guys can turn it around however you like, at the end America is made from imigrants... I don't think it was very legal the way it was "settle".

I am so glad I don't have to go trough all the BS that illigal and legal Latinos or Hispanic people have to put up with.

I am not in favor of illigals at all, but the whole concetp it's old.
And if It wouldn't be in America's interest (somehow) it would of be done by know via extermination, that's other things have been handle in the past, right? Lol...

Anyways, this thread won't be over anytime soon ,so I am out.

 

[SilverStone05]

So acts of discrimination in Mexico are to be overlooked , yet the Big Bad United States is patronized for securing its borders and enforcing its laws.
Typical.

No anger here, sir...just calling it how it is. I've been to Mexico several times and I will go back again. Just so you know, when I visit, I do it legally. I take my passport and wait patiently in line at customs and fill out all appropriate paperwork like a good tourist.

Furthermore, I enjoy the people, the food and the culture. 5 years of Spanish has developed my Spanish speaking abilities, but no matter how great my mastery may be, those darn street vendors will never change american dollars into dollars. :biggrin:

SilverStone05,

I am so sorry the lady at the taco stand didn't give you US money back that's is very discriminatory!!!

Drunk arrogant Americans or and other person from any country thinking that they can do whatever they want just because they are drunk or stupid, should be sent to spent a beautiful night in our special suite.

My self, I've sent a few drunkies for a night getaway when I used to managed the club, maybe it was you and that's why you have all this anger.

Anyways, you guys can turn it around however you like, at the end America is made from imigrants... I don't think it was very legal the way it was "settle".

I am so glad I don't have to go trough all the BS that illigal and legal Latinos or Hispanic people have to put up with.

I am not in favor of illigals at all, but the whole concetp it's old.
And if It wouldn't be in America's interest (somehow) it would of be done by know via extermination, that's other things have been handle in the past, right? Lol...

Anyways, this thread won't be over anytime soon ,so I am out.