auto vs stick

[mlambert890]

So ML, if you were to buy a late model 911 would you go PDK? I'm just curious cause it's probably the best sequential in production today! That's a big discussion on the Porsche boards and in Panorama. I still get all that stuff as a member of the PCA. How do you feel about driver involvement - is it or can it be as much fun as a MT in your opinion?

ABSOLUTELY HELL YES I'd get PDK PDK may lure me away from the NSX (time will tell)

Driver involvement is........ different. In many ways it is lessened. It is fun to row gears and challenge yourself.

BUT... the dual clutch has charms of its own. The shifting is insanely quick. Paddling can be fun by itself. Not having to care about a clutch pedal can be liberating just the way caring about one can be fun

The option to drop it into D when 76E into Philly becomes a parking lot is VERY nice

TOUGH call, but I really love the dual clutch (Im a tech fanatic though... so Im a sucker for high tech gadgets) I also do very much appreciate "old school" as well, ironically, so if I ever had no manual left in my stable at all, I'm sure a nostalgic part of me would miss it a bit

 

[mlambert890]

i have a built auto in my Z and i love it. difference is i can make power easily vs. the NSX. on the NSX i wouldn't want the transmission sucking up what little power i have unless i were going forced induction.

had a GTI with DSG and while it is nice in its own right, it doesn't replace the want for a manual, nor does it give the smoothness of an auto. also, they tend to suffer from rough clutch engagement when going from a stop, even on the latest and greatest ferrari 458 italia... how is it on the ralliart?

Yeah, agree on NSX... I was thinking more about Level10 to address the concern auto NSX owners may have about trans parts going bye-bye. Worst case is full aftermarket with Level10 (who somehow seem like they're going to be around forever )

I agree with all of that with regards to dual clutch. In *some* ways, it IS the "worst of both worlds". BUT, I do also feel it is the best of both worlds too!

I pointed out to my wife how it does definitely feel like a particularly brutal clutch driver. Then again, Im not the greatest clutch driver either

The shifts are insanely quick though, and while the auto mode can be a bit rough, at least there is one and its MUCH better than the single clutch sequentials.

A single clutch, IMO, is a tough call b/c you probably need to keep them in paddle mode 24x7 to make them livable and the auto mode was a sort of checkbox feature.

The dual clutches, IMO, make the auto mode *actually* usable. NO WAY as smooth as a proper auto, but you can use it and get used to it. In manual mode, its killer since shifts are instantaneous. Absolutely not as fun or engaging as a true manual, but performance is definitely there. For ME, its a VERY compelling package.

This is subjective without a doubt though. That said, the industry is taking away our choice anyway GTR, Ferrari, Lambo all have dropped true manual altogether. I suspect Porsche will follow soon. I think manual is sunsetting. Of course the classics can be around forever if we keep them well maintained

 

[HBui39]

i like single clutch, but yeah you gotta keep it in manual mode. i like that you get more of a manual feel than the dual clutch... if you get what i mean.

i said it in another thread, but it feels like the dual clutch just wants you to leave it alone and let it shift for you... where the single clutch needs you... and i guess its nice to be needed. :biggrin:

in a small econocar with little power, DSG makes sense, but i'll still take my AMG's with a traditional automatic... and i'll take my Ferrari's with a single clutch auto. if i got a porsche, it'd be a GT3, which is manual only. no PDK for me.

i guess i'm the opposite on the dual clutch autos... :smile:

 

[mlambert890]

i like single clutch, but yeah you gotta keep it in manual mode. i like that you get more of a manual feel than the dual clutch... if you get what i mean.

i said it in another thread, but it feels like the dual clutch just wants you to leave it alone and let it shift for you... where the single clutch needs you... and i guess its nice to be needed. :biggrin:

in a small econocar with little power, DSG makes sense, but i'll still take my AMG's with a traditional automatic... and i'll take my Ferrari's with a single clutch auto. if i got a porsche, it'd be a GT3, which is manual only. no PDK for me.

i guess i'm the opposite on the dual clutch autos... :smile:

Definitely subjective... My little Ralliart is about 260HP (GST free etune... what a great community!) on about 3400lbs or so with the dual clutch SST.

My 335xi is about 300HP or so on prob about the same weight. [Edit: just verified - 3462 for RA, 3568 for 335xi]

I gotta say... BMW makes a great auto (they make a great everything), but I find the RA with its SST is a *lot* more fun.

I agree totally on AMG though. Benz piles such a shit load of HP in, and their 7 speed autos are so insane, that anything else in a Benz AMG would be wrong IMO.

On the Aston Martin though, the single clutch sequential from the Ferrari ruins it, IMO. My friend and I both agreed and he decided to not buy it. He is waiting on the dual clutch to be available in the basic Vantage V8. The dual clutch was awesome.

In the Ferraris its tough. Personally, I want to eventually buy a F355 and buy it in M6 and row gears through the insane gated shifter. The F458, on the other hand, does make a really compelling argument for dual clutch on a high HP super car, though (wait... is the F458 a super car? Should we check the thread ), as does the GT-R.

Definitely person by person, car by car, implementation by implementation thing without a doubt. More than ever people MUST test drive these things.

 

[HBui39]

actually Aston Martin has their own unit, which is why it sucks... the Ferrari F430 has the latest and greatest F1 box, which is better than earlier generations. even early versions are better than the Aston Martin though. i wouldn't get a Ferrari in a manual because the F1 is another aspect that makes it unique... and its just so good.

BMW makes a lot of things well, but they are really lacking in the sports car category... their engines and handling can certainly be at home in a supercar... but i guess they would rather make money. lol.

i wanted the dual clutch experience so i got a VW GTI. no need to get a 458 for that. :biggrin:

my GTI made 300hp/350tq but i still consider it a small weak engine... reason being, it is. i turn on the AC and it kills the performance... weak. DSG is a good pairing for such a weak little engine. technology makes the big numbers, but it is what it is. my Subaru WRX made 500hp, but it was still a weak little engine... AC and it fell on its face. NSX may be much slower, but its got a proper engine that can handle AC. lol.

anyways, yeah i agree with needing to test drive it all... and extensively.

 

[mlambert890]

Current Vantage sequential is definitely the Magnetti Marelli used in the Ferrari 430... Reference here:

http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/luxury/112_0704_2007_aston_martin_vantage/index.html

Aston doesn't make much of their own anything really, these days, but pretty much no one outside of Porsche and BMW makes their own sequentials. It is Magnetti, Gertrag, Borg, etc doing these. The manufacturers "tweak" them, but I think this is really TCU tuning honestly.

It is kind of funny how on a 4 (even hugely boosted) you can still feel the impact of an AC

 

[HBui39]

Current Vantage sequential is definitely the Magnetti Marelli used in the Ferrari 430... Reference here:

http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/luxury/112_0704_2007_aston_martin_vantage/index.html

Aston doesn't make much of their own anything really, these days, but pretty much no one outside of Porsche and BMW makes their own sequentials. It is Magnetti, Gertrag, Borg, etc doing these. The manufacturers "tweak" them, but I think this is really TCU tuning honestly.

It is kind of funny how on a 4 (even hugely boosted) you can still feel the impact of an AC

well, Ferrari tunes it best then. all i know is i'd only get one from Ferrari... of the current cars i've driven. (haven't tried the Lexus LF-A nor Lambo Aventador, but they seem like promising single clutch units)

i heard BMW has a fine one in the E46 M3 and E60 M5, but i don't want a Sedan so i never bothered trying them.

 

[mlambert890]

well, Ferrari tunes it best then. all i know is i'd only get one from Ferrari... of the current cars i've driven. (haven't tried the Lexus LF-A nor Lambo Aventador, but they seem like promising single clutch units)

i heard BMW has a fine one in the E46 M3 and E60 M5, but i don't want a Sedan so i never bothered trying them.

Yeah, I agree here. Ferrari definitely has the single clutch about as "evolved" as you can get it.

E46 SMG is pretty controversial. *I* loved it, but it has a pretty bad rep due to some of the early issues (I'd bet a lot of those are driver abuse personally, but who knows) and the early tunes brutal nature.

Over time it got a lot smoother. I drove a year 1 SMG though and thought it was fantastic.

 

[DocL]

DOCL it was an idea to use a friends car once she had the basics down from the UHAUL, she wouldnt hurt the borrowed car LOL

I have never done that before, I would be PIIISSSSEEEDDD off LOL.

I tried to teach my Fiance to drive my NSX she did good.

stop go stop go reverse stop go stop go reverse .. then i started to SMELL my clutch and I was like enough for today, that was 2.5 years ago LOL

Phew. Where do you come up with these ideas???? LOL. I'd don't even want to know how you'd suggest to teach someone to fly a plane.

I've used my NSX to teach a few people to drive manual. It's a soft clutch and the low torque, it makes it easy to get going from a stop. No burnt smell here.

Thanks for clearing that up. :smile:

 

[LMR]

I considered an auto for a very short time only because the wife gave me grief about getting another manual that she would not be able to drive. Then I reminded her that my last car, a BMW Z4 I got an auto so she could drive it but she only drove it 3 times in 3 years so I got a manual.

Moral of the story is get what you makes you happy not what you think will make others happy.

 

[nsxcoupe]

no one outside of Porsche and BMW makes their own sequentials.

BMW's come from GETRAG and Porsche's come from ZF. No one makes their own DCTs for road cars (race cars is another story).

 

[mlambert890]

I considered an auto for a very short time only because the wife gave me grief about getting another manual that she would not be able to drive. Then I reminded her that my last car, a BMW Z4 I got an auto so she could drive it but she only drove it 3 times in 3 years so I got a manual.

Moral of the story is get what you makes you happy not what you think will make others happy.

My friend had the same approach. Now he pays alimony He isn't very happy! :frown:

I kid, I kid!

Seriously though, everyone's situation is different. I definitely "get" that some folks need to buy what they buy for reasons that are right for them and their situation (happy wife, happy life included)

 

[HBui39]

moral of the story, don't get married. :biggrin:

 

[mlambert890]

BMW's come from GETRAG and Porsche's come from ZF. No one makes their own DCTs for road cars (race cars is another story).

Ah! You are right! Good catch... I normally made the statement you did there "no one makes their own DCTs..." and then someone convinced me that BMW and Porsche did, but doing a little Google research I see you are correct. I should have checked

So yeah... Everyone buys the DCTs!

Thats one thing I do find a *little* bit worrying. That these things are complex black boxes sourced from third parties. But I figure as DCT picks up massive momentum (and it definitely is), eventually the solutions will have to further commoditize and aftermarket support increase.

 

[warrenw]

My wife refuses to drive an automatic! She has never owned a car with an automatic transmission.
Yes, she can drive the NSX, she prefers her S2000.

 

[HBui39]

Ah! You are right! Good catch... I normally made the statement you did there "no one makes their own DCTs..." and then someone convinced me that BMW and Porsche did, but doing a little Google research I see you are correct. I should have checked

So yeah... Everyone buys the DCTs!

Thats one thing I do find a *little* bit worrying. That these things are complex black boxes sourced from third parties. But I figure as DCT picks up massive momentum (and it definitely is), eventually the solutions will have to further commoditize and aftermarket support increase.

i think Nissan, Mitsubishi, and VW make their own...:biggrin:

 

[LMR]

My friend had the same approach. Now he pays alimony He isn't very happy! :frown:

I kid, I kid!

Seriously though, everyone's situation is different. I definitely "get" that some folks need to buy what they buy for reasons that are right for them and their situation (happy wife, happy life included)

I got the manual NSX she got new dining and living room furniture so she is happy also:wink:

 

[Vega$ NSX]

I got the manual NSX she got new dining and living room furniture so she is happy also:wink:

That must be some pretty expensive furniture! :biggrin:

 

[tbromley]

That must be some pretty expensive furniture! :biggrin:

Indeed! :wink:

Now LMR you have to admit that if your wife had driven the Z4 a whole lot mere say once a week your story might have a different ending - might'n it! :wink:

 

[butter78]

Wife's should also consider happy husband happy life. Mine does...I've seen my friends wives and 75% of em I would kicked to the curb. I've dated several women through out my life and can continue to do so if the need is there...never had problems "getting girls" per say. I'm lucky I guess as I probably would never find another women as understanding and respectful of my wants and interests as my wife...not easily anyways.

 

[Sublyminal]

moral of the story, don't get married. :biggrin:

lol

 

[LMR]

Indeed! :wink:

Now LMR you have to admit that if your wife had driven the Z4 a whole lot mere say once a week your story might have a different ending - might'n it! :wink:

No, I would still have a manual NSX:wink:. I would not want her driving the NSX:biggrin:. You should see all the nicks and scratchs on her car

 

[sportmarc]

My wife refuses to drive an automatic! She has never owned a car with an automatic transmission.
Yes, she can drive the NSX, she prefers her S2000.

Funny, my wife is the same. She had one auto and couldn't wait to switch back. She wanted a manual, all wheel drive, four door with some "go". Not many choices and we were looking for quite a while and ended up with a 2006 Outback XT (Turbo) manual. She loves it, and for a family hauler, gotta say it's not bad at all. When I met her she had a red manual Saturn SC2 - definitely a tick on the plus side.

Boy would she have a look on her face if I showed up with an auto sports car!

 

[mlambert890]

Funny, my wife is the same. She had one auto and couldn't wait to switch back. She wanted a manual, all wheel drive, four door with some "go". Not many choices and we were looking for quite a while and ended up with a 2006 Outback XT (Turbo) manual. She loves it, and for a family hauler, gotta say it's not bad at all. When I met her she had a red manual Saturn SC2 - definitely a tick on the plus side.

Boy would she have a look on her face if I showed up with an auto sports car!

Wait... a manual, AWD, four door with some go... A "racer chick"... and you went to the Subaru dealer...

That is some MIGHTY restraint that you didnt leave with an STi! (or at least a base WRX)

 

[mcano]

Forget your clan, you'll realize it sooner or later that you don't want anyone else driving it.

My family members have owned a '90 ('91 in your case) auto and still own a '95 semi-auto, I have spent sufficient amount with them both and mine is a '98 manual. While the autos (especially the Sportshift) are still VERY fun to drive but the manual experience will blow you away. One of they key factors is that autos only have 4 gears, thus accelerates slower.

Chances are that if you buy an auto, you'll end up trading it for a manual to get the full NSX experience. My advice is try them both and you'll know the difference.

No disrespect to autos whatsoever.

Very true. My wife stopped driving my car because she did not like me inspecting the car for dings and scrapes after she returned.