BBSC and Fully mapped ECU

[G_Man_Max]

In relation to the recent topic "BBSC owners speak up"on price rises and SC problems JSG wrote

The price of the unit has gone up due in part (large) to the additional costs of the fuel management system and design changes.
The fuel management will require a "black" box interface to the ECU. My production unit currently just uses a chip. Mark stated that FactorX estimated over 1000 hrs to "do it right." Sometimes good enough is OK. 1000 hrs would be too cost prohibative.

With all the recent discussions and queries over the performance graphs of the SC being blamed on its fuelling and the reason for the price rises on the BBSC attributed to the necessary Honda ECU tweaking.

Is there any fundamental reason why "doing it properly " hasn't been investigated and embraced and the BBSC or Comptech or whatever set up a fully mapped replacement ECU, These can be configured up pretty easily with a rolling road and laptop and can run closed loop or open loop or even have an emissions mode, It can deal with fuelling, ignition and even NOS and is very inexpensive compared to the SC cost. The initial map could be preset my MB or Dali etc depending on what pulley you are running and then just customised on the RR to take into account the exact characteristics for each car.

This would have the benefit of allowing for any custom headwork or I,H,E combination. It would obviously not require the 1000 hours of dev work discussed by Factor X to custom design a solution from scratch and any generic solution in its inherent nature can only be less than perfect.

Each BBSC car is rolling roaded anyway.
I have used these products to great effect in numerous cars including Renault GTA v6, Porsche 911 and R32 GTR Skyline 600 BHP.
Almost all serious modifiers would benefit from this kind of solution and its usually only the perceived complexity and "computer phobia" that pervades old school engine spannering that puts people off.
NSX's are usually pretty keen to embrace this technology and it could almost certainly enhance the control we could exert over VTEC and inlet tract control.
If anyone’s interested. Have a look here
http://www.omextechnology.co.uk/page3.html
Here
http://www.dtafast.co.uk/scrwin4.htm
And my recommendation
http://members.aol.com/emeraldm3d/software.htm


[This message has been edited by G_Man_Max (edited 13 June 2002).]

 

[Periokid]

I think this is a very good point.

I have modified Miatas for a while and programmable ECUs are easy to obtain for the Miata.

The flexiblitly it allows is tremendous.

Basically these systems come pre-programmed and they then can be adjusted to your specific engine (N/A, supercharged, turbocharged, headers, intake, etc). It will even self tune if desired.

Quite impressive and not even very expensive.

This would be a wonderful upgrade for the NSX.

 

[BoneZ]

After doing extensive research on this very topic myself, as I too was interested in the concept I must comment that the reality of "do-it yourself" fuel mapping is in most cases NOT a good idea.

Don't get me wrong, Ive been workin on computers since I was 10 years old, and have a fairly competent knowledge of air/fuel ratios and proper theory on fuel tuning a car.

BUT .. one thing you can NOT do on most out of the box do-it yourself tuner ECU's is test air/fuel ratios. This is something you would need additional hardware, or a dyno for, which most people won't want to purchase for themselves due to cost.

If you don't run a proper a/f ratio, you could suffer detonation which no one wants.

My suggestion after heavy workings with this stuff is that owning the device is one thing, paying the additional $500 or however much your certified tuner charges (who has a dyno and will test your curves against it) is well worth the cost.

Going out on an open road, tuning your fuel map because it "feels" better, doesn't always mean it is better. The car may feel real strong, but that doesn't mean its not detonating or doing damage to your engine.

Another thing to keep in mind is under forced induction applications, retarding the timing under higher rpm's to account for excess boost pressure when de-accelerating is something that an open road and your trusty foot can't judge.

A dyno and a tuner... its worth the money.

Just my 2 cents....

-B

 

[JSG]

Sometimes good enough is OK. 1000 hrs would be too cost prohibative.

-B[/B]

Please let me clarify that the above statement is mine and not from Mark B. I trust that he will not settle for "good enough." Given the finite market for an NSX supercharger I made the cost conclusion.

The take home point is that there are many ways to skin a cat (sorry SPCA) and Mark will find one that is effective for his product.

 

[G_Man_Max]

Bonez In regards to the idea of not calibrating it, well surely noone would be crazy enough to try that, its the whole point of a fully mapped ecu that you "map it" I.E. rolling road it.

Thats what customizes it and makes it right not just for a generic nsx engine or even a specific type .. BBSC, Turbo or CTSC but for your exact engine with its individual characteristics.

As I said

The initial map could be preset my MB or Dali etc depending on what pulley you are running and then just customised on the RR to take into account the exact characteristics for each car.

I think we both agree this is the way forward and could really help the scene, on the other post nsxtc says

Both the Factor X chip and the new BBSC fuel system are cutting edge technologies that use 3-D fuel mapping software to create their maps. It has the ability to actually read boost via it's own MAP sensor, which is a first for any NSX kit on the market.

If this is the case this truly is great news as they are then providing "fully individually mapped" injector p.w.m. and ignition timing control for every point on the rpm vs load surface map. This begs the question of just what is the hoda ECU doing anymore and is it therefore still nessecary? My concearn was that a number of people on this board have seemed to imply that the fueling for the BBSC relys on sensor reading manipulation devices to "trick" the ECU into providing an appropriate allthough approximate output.
If this is a fully 3D map then I also presume it is programmable and therefore able to take account of any other modifications present on the engine.
If so and it has the blessing on the X-gods "Mark B and Mark J" (ps when are you guys bringing a BBSC over to europe ?) will it be available independently of the SC to benefit those who havn't wanted forced induction yet ?

The last mapped ECU I had also had a nice extra feature that some of you Gas uses might like, a progressive NOS output on full throttle that ramped up the fuel and NOS solenoids duty cycle to feed in the big hits really smoothly.

 

[sjs]

Originally posted by G_Man_Max:
...If this is the case this truly is great news as they are then providing "fully individually mapped" injector p.w.m. and ignition timing control for every point on the rpm vs load surface map...

A bit of an overstatement. Great stuff no doubt, and very exciting indeed, and it should be sufficient for an SC where boost is driven by RPM, but don't confuse it with a full featured system based on load as you state. Boost is linked to load with a turbo which is why such a system would at a minimum need to factor in throttle position, but should have an airflow or density sensor of some kind. RPM and boost alone are not enough unless you are mapping for consistent conditions and driving habits such as a level drag strip.

 

[Periokid]

Originally posted by BoneZ:
After doing extensive research on this very topic myself, as I too was interested in the concept I must comment that the reality of "do-it yourself" fuel mapping is in most cases NOT a good idea.

Don't get me wrong, Ive been workin on computers since I was 10 years old, and have a fairly competent knowledge of air/fuel ratios and proper theory on fuel tuning a car.

BUT .. one thing you can NOT do on most out of the box do-it yourself tuner ECU's is test air/fuel ratios. This is something you would need additional hardware, or a dyno for, which most people won't want to purchase for themselves due to cost.

If you don't run a proper a/f ratio, you could suffer detonation which no one wants.


-B

I am not sure if your point is correct.

Who says you cannot test air/fuel ratios? Air/fuel ratios are constantly monitored by the ECU. This is the purpose of the oxygen sensor(s).

In my experience with programmable ECUs, the ECU comes pre programmed to the car and can then be fine tuned using air/fuel ratio adjustment (via feedback from the O2 sensor(s) plus timing adjustments regulated by a knock sensor.

Of course major adjustments can be made as well for the advanced user.



------------------
1991 NSX Red/Black

 

[sjs]

Originally posted by Periokid:
I am not sure if your point is correct.

Who says you cannot test air/fuel ratios? Air/fuel ratios are constantly monitored by the ECU. This is the purpose of the oxygen sensor(s).

In my experience with programmable ECUs, the ECU comes pre programmed to the car and can then be fine tuned using air/fuel ratio adjustment (via feedback from the O2 sensor(s) plus timing adjustments regulated by a knock sensor...

Only very recently have wide-band a/f sensors become available for in-car install at anything less than way too much $$. The ones in nearly all cars (a couple recent hybrids excepted) are useless for tuning under load. They are there for idle and cruising emissions only and do not function at all in the ranges needed for proper performance tuning. And they don't communicate with the ECU under load either. Likewise anything you can buy for a couple hundred bucks from Auto-meter etc., they are not wide-band. (Some interesting new tricks have been developed recently to get usable readings from them in a very unconventional way, but now the wide-bands are coming down in price anyway due to the hybrids.)

So, what you said will likely be more true in the near future, but thus far it is limited to very high-end stuff.

 

[BryanZublin]

If you were selling a turbo / SC kit, ask yourself these questions:

1. Does an aftermarket ECU justify the added cost?
2. Do I want to give my customer the ability to easily change the fuel map, with the risk of damaging the engine and then blaming me for the failure?
3. Do I want to loose the TCS function of the NSX?

Bryan Zublin

 

[ilya]

I don't think anyone would ever argue that tuning your car specifically with a fully programmable system, done by a professional tuner like Factor X will yield better results than a pre-programmed approach. However, companies selling kits need to consider profit and availability. How can they ship a kit, with warranty, that does not have everything preset for any qualified tech to install? The difficult part is coming up with a standard that can be used for a range of models.

Of course, Factor X specifically tuning your car on their dyno will produce better results. That's why Ken's 6lb Comptech NSX was a siginifcant magnitude superior, than any 9lb I have ever been in.

So what is Comptech supposed to do? Require everyone who buys their Supercharger drive to California and have Factor X tune thier car? They can not. They have to release a dependable standard. While not being perfectly tuned to YOUR car and sacrificing performance potential, they have an excellent, dependable kit that can be installed by any qualified tech around the country.

A base kit is not the end of the road. I personally see a kit as a starting point, not a means to an end. To sell a complete kit, you must have a standard. By it's very definition, that standard will not be specific to your particular car, therefore making certain sacrifices. It will still be an excellent kit. If you want to go that extra mile, have the car tuned by a pro and reap the benefits. However, it's unfair to expect perfection in tuning from a standardized product. It should be as advertized and reliable. No more, no less.
It's the buyer's choice whether to pursue further tuning or leave it as is.

Personally, after experiencing Ken's car for myself, I would not hesitate to do the same if I had a Comptech unit. I'm sure that the final Basch unit will perform well and maintain reliability. That doesn't change the fact that it can be further improved, for your specific car, by a professional tuner... just like any available kit. Comparing a standardized kit to hours/days of fine tuning for your car by a pro is not a fair comparison.

As Bryan mentioned, just sending a fully programmable system for the customer/mechanic to tune is just asking for trouble. If you have one, people will try to do it themselves. It's inevitable as with the Bell kit and some stories you hear. The turbo didn't blow motors... it's an inanimate object.
Improper install/tuning blew motors. The vendor can take away that factor in the equation and release a safe system. If the customer decides to switch to another system and start tuning, it's their responsibility, not the vendor.

[This message has been edited by ilya (edited 17 June 2002).]

 

[G_Man_Max]

originally posted by Ilya
The vendor can take away that factor in the equation and release a safe system. If the customer decides to switch to another system and start tuning, it's their responsibility, not the vendor.

Why take away this choice and force the customer to bur yet another replacement part? Why not give the Customer the "option" of tuning the system and that way you are also adding long term value to the purchase.

How many of us have bought component X only to decide further down the line that we wanted to go further and so should have really bought Z instead of X ??
With a programmable ECU the purchase is always working for you however much you modify or tune your car (within limits)
A proper ECU is the solution to these kind of will x work if I change Y problems that have plagued our exotics for years. There just aren’t enough people who have the exact combination of parts that one might intend for our NSX’s.

From my experience full 3d mapping for accurate load/AF surface mapping is a massive improvement that can help us all.
It’s a single component that can universally improve almost any engine in almost any state of tune.
And what’s more with any rolling road its not that complicated to do ---- with a single caveat "as long as you really understand what you are doing".

I fully agree with Bryan about self modification but if someone buys SC or Turbo from tuner X and then modifies the Intake/header or boost pulley etc without consulting the Tuner then they risk damaging the car anyway at least with a programmable ECU the changes can all be safely accommodated with a remapping session. Approx cost about £40 or $60 per hour and a 3 hour session is usually able to accommodate all but the most extreme of changes.
The actual EMS ECU’s cost from £350 upwards not a large cost in my mind for the benefit they give. The main cost for me has always been in replacing the intake plenums/manifold with individual throttle bodies but I have never seen any of these available for the NSX.

As I see it, it would be fairy easy for Tuning houses to checksum the maps they create for the client or seal/lock the input port on the ECU that way the system can remain guaranteed as long as no one “touches”. If you still want to fiddle well then "all bets are off" and so’s the guarantee but hell its your car. Its still likely that the customers and the tuners will all benefit from the extra performance flexibility and additional tuning/mapping work.

 

[ilya]

I agree that it would be nice for these systems to come with the kits. Nice for us.

I don't think the vendors are willing to put up with the legal issues and resulting bad press. Selling a product that requires tuning, especially for something as expensive as cars, then depending on an independent shop for tuning (that they are not affiliated with) is asking for trouble. From a vendor's perspective, they are much safer releasing a plugnplay kit. It's cheaper, it's safer, and it avoids nasty mishaps and legal issues.

I would always want to further tune, but I can see why most vendors make the choice they do.

 

[Factor X Motorsports]

In regards, to allowing users the ability to adjust values. It is our opinion this is a very, very, bad idea. We are not saying that we know everything there is to know about tuning. However, we have been tuning for over 12 years starting with a screwdriver and some knobs to the present, with 32bit micro-controllers, and 16bit D/A converters that enable high resolution. Through the years we have gained a large breath of experience with a wide range of vehicles (Domestic/Import). Not all vehicle settings are the same. For example, the air/fuel/ignition tables of a Twin Turbo Supra are completely different from that of an NSX with boost, due to engine dynamics (head design, compression, etc) If we had a dollar for every AFC that has come into the shop with clients saying, “I set the values at what I read on the forums” we would not be driving NSX’s

,jk. This is the reason why the AEM engine management solution is being misunderstood by the public. They have a high resolution system that can get you into trouble really fast if you do not understand what you are doing. There may be a few people out there that think they know what they are doing when tuning out of their garage or up hills but, the general public will have major issues. We prefer our dyno, and a Motec Pro-Lamda Meter with an NTK UEGO wide band sensor.

Speed Safely,

Factor X Motorsports www.factorxmotorsports.com