Bogus information provided by another Prime member

[RacerX-21]

I haven't posted anywhere in this thread that someone should go with AEM. My defense of the product has been the extent of it.

NEVER IN MY LIFE have I posted or publically mentioned to ANYONE a negative remark about some of the other engine management manufacturers mentioned. Have I been mad beyond belief in the past when I've tuned other systems and the box fails - absolutely! It happens.

I have always supported the line of thinking that you should buy what your tuner of choice is comforatable with. I've never had to or will ever "push" the AEM product on someone. You must have good tuning support regardless of system. I would recommend searching out and investigating your tuner options before buying a system in every case.

Is the AEM perfect for everyone? The answer is no. Is the AEM box failure free? The answer is no. We are an electronics company that has a rate of failure not unlike any other electronics manufacturer - automotive related or otherwise.

Who could argue with the wisdom of this well written post? I think fair, realistic, accountable and evasive at the same time... but on the mark.

If this was your response in the beginning others would have been less hostile.

Hopefully this/my post can follow the same example:

I have problems with AEM equipment, having nothing to do with tuning or even the NSX. Fact
But I will concede that all of the units are earlier units then are sold today, so it’s plausible that later units don’t have problems. (Some of my units have single digit serial numbers because I was one of the first AEM supporters.)
If the early units did have problems I would in a perfect world, prefer a company that would want to solve these problems, and when they solve these problems would want to share those solutions with their first and last customers regardless of market size.

 

[Devin@AEM]

Vega$ - please read what I posted again

NEVER IN MY LIFE have I posted or publically mentioned to ANYONE a negative remark about some of the other engine management manufacturers mentioned. Have I been mad beyond belief in the past when I've tuned other systems and the box fails - absolutely! It happens.

There is no "victim" card being played and this does not fall under a "guise" of any sorts. I have not taken back anything I said in previous posts about Mikey or Factor X.

Note to self: When trying to defend your company, don't describe a tuner shop's publicly malicious statements about the subject as crap.

 

[gotTurbo]

I just wanted to comment on my interactions with Factor X. I don't understand why everyone is going so crazy on this post, but whatever. I just like to drive my NSX, it's freaking awesome. I know very, very little about tuning. All I know is my Mikey tuned car is great.

I have a 97 NSX with the FX400 turbo kit (HKS F-Conn powered) with a completely bone stock motor. Mike and Ken finished my car in Feb of 2005; almost two years ago (I think this was the first OBDII Turbo NSX???). I have put about 5k miles on the car since then. I drive the car very hard and have had absolutely no problems. Best times are 12.3@119 on the street tires.

I have a hard time saying all the good things about Factor-X without rambling forever.....so just a few words: They were awesome people to interact with and also the most professional and LEAST ANNOYING tuners I have ever met. The car is amazing! I have killed all kinds of cars on the street including an all wheel drive turbo 911 from a dead stop. I have had ZERO problems with the car. All I do is change the oil, tires, and put gas in it (still gets 28mpg on the highway).

I have driven the car in these conditions: 15 to 105 degrees F, 1000ft to 11000ft in altitude, and on a 700 mile raod trip. I've never had any problems. It always starts perfect, idles fine, never gets hot, etc.

If you haven't driven an FX400 or FX500 you are missing out. They are absolute beasts!

 

[Vega$ NSX]

Vega$ - please read what I posted again

There is no "victim" card being played and this does not fall under a "guise" of any sorts. I have not taken back anything I said in previous posts about Mikey or Factor X.

Note to self: When trying to defend your company, don't describe a tuner shop's publicly malicious statements about the subject as crap.

Devin,
Please re-read my post. I am saying the backlash you are seeing now is a direct result of your antagonistic first post. Regardless what neutral position you take now, or if you are at peace with it. You can't punch someone in the mouth (figuratively) and then say you didn't do anything or not expect them to return in favor.

RacerX-21 put it perfectly:

If this was your response in the beginning others would have been less hostile.

Understand you are reaping what you sowed.

 

[Devin@AEM]

Vega$ - I don't look at this as "backlash" and my stance has not changed in any way. I am certainly not taking a neutral one.

I barely post on Prime to begin with...in fact, this thread has rocketed me past the elusive 100 post club. Do you think I made that first post without expecting an extremely heated debate?

 

[Factor X Motorsports]

Let me get this straight...

Factor X is saying to go with HKS F-Con
Devin is saying to go with AEM.

But to my understanding AEM has more tunning parameters than HKS but has some signal problems?

I'm now confused I was to drop some cash on a AEM for my CTSC NSX..and have it tunned at autowave, or now should I go with HKS? and have it tunned by S-P engineering?

I was planning the AEM, boost gauge, and AEM UEGO.

Our advice first and foremost is find a competent tuner that you can deal with and understands your goals for the car. Next gather as many facts as possible, talk to those that have the product, and go for a ride. Hopefully, this will point you in the right direction. In our experience the HKS FCon does an incredible job and has been doing that for many years in Japan.

If you do go HKS its hard to go wrong with the guys at SP.

Don't even get us started on the AEM UEGO or the AEM CDI

Take the time to read the links that are on this thread to Supraforums lots of information.

Hope this helps!

 

[Devin@AEM]

Ken - I'm glad you brought up the AEM CDI box. We definitely had an elevated failure rate with several batches of that product. In response, we really loosened up on our warranty policies regarding the CDI and to this day still offer a no-questions-asked exchange (obviously not if the user installed the product wrong).

Looks like we have actually agreed on a couple items in this thread now.

 

[waymilky]

This whole thread makes one take a second thought about adding FI. It sounds like you are really taking an expensive risk that all though some get at least temporarily wonderful results, others end up with nightmares in what started out as wonderful cars in the stock form.

 

[Vega$ NSX]

This whole thread makes one take a second thought about adding FI. It sounds like you are really taking an expensive risk that all though some get at least temporarily wonderful results, others end up with nightmares in what started out as wonderful cars in the stock form.

It shouldn't affect your thought processes on FI. I think everyone from Devin, to Armando, to Factor X, to RacerX-21, and me do all agree on one thing: It all comes down to the competency of the tuner you pick. If you get the right tuner, they will steer you in the right direction and pick the right equipment.

Think of it as choosing a doctor for surgery. A bad doctor will have higher chance of botching up the job, regardless of what type of equipment they are using. A good doctor will have a higher success rate, using whatever technique they feel most comfortable with. The key is to evaluate the doctor; look at their track record, talk to their previous clients, build a trust level. The same applies for tuners.

 

[waymilky]

It all comes down to the competency of the tuner you pick. If you get the right tuner, they will steer you in the right direction and pick the right equipment.

With Lovefab being 1400+ miles away,and Factor X being 850+ miles away from me, it gives me and I'm sure others pause as to whether there is anybody within a two hour vicinity who you could trust this critical function. Even if they have tuned cars with either the AEM or the HKS ems on NA or SC cars, is this safe enough to entrust them with a turbo car. As both sides on this AEM vs. Factor X debate has demonstrated on this thread, even experienced tuners can have great results and disasterous results and to an owner, it doesn't matter as much where the fault lies as much as he has spent a great deal of money and ended up worse off than he began. Both sides in this debate have customers who are very happy, but it seems that the customers also live in close proximity to the installer. Might it be true that you shouldn't attempt to turbo an NSX unless you live very near the installer?

 

[MiamieNeSeX]

It all comes down to the competency of the tuner you pick. If you get the right tuner, they will steer you in the right direction and pick the right equipment.

With Lovefab being 1400+ miles away,and Factor X being 850+ miles away from me, it gives me and I'm sure others pause as to whether there is anybody within a two hour vicinity who you could trust this critical function. Even if they have tuned cars with either the AEM or the HKS ems on NA or SC cars, is this safe enough to entrust them with a turbo car. As both sides on this AEM vs. Factor X debate has demonstrated on this thread, even experienced tuners can have great results and disasterous results and to an owner, it doesn't matter as much where the fault lies as much as he has spent a great deal of money and ended up worse off than he began. Both sides in this debate have customers who are very happy, but it seems that the customers also live in close proximity to the installer. Might it be true that you shouldn't attempt to turbo an NSX unless you live very near the installer?

Plenty of valid points, and it is obvious that the closer you are to both the installer and tuner the easier your life will be. But then again, I would rather have a short drive to a dyno, as you can always fly in most of the competent tuners. Once your initial tune is done, all should remain the same unless you add or delete something from the car (which due the easy access to the programming on most of the aftermarket EMSs combined with shade tree mechanics and their laptops usaully equals catastrophic results). The best thing to live by is "You have to pay to play" HP cost money and when no one sets out to blow motors up it happens so if a motor build is not in your budget keep it stock.


Armando

 

[myhui]

Let me comment as an electronics engineer on the electrical noise problem.

Has anyone at AEM checked the signal with an oscilloscope, using a differential probe (this is a must), on a "problematic" car at various points: right at the sensor, along the way through possibly several connectors, and right at the input to the ECU. If noise is added along the way, then the problem is in the harness. If not, and if the ECU's A/D converters' outputs are reporting noisy readings, then either the analog lowpass filter preceding the converters' inputs are wrongly designed, or there isn't sufficient digital lowpass filtering on the converters' digital outputs.

It is not that hard to trace this problem. The cost of the oscilloscope with the required differential probe is less than $1500.

 

[Factor X Motorsports]

Devin,

Thanks for taking the time to talk to me personally about these past issues. Hopefully many of the past misconceptions are cleared up! Next time youre in Vegas we will have a few beers and a few Seamless girls:biggrin: Talk to you later.


Mikey The “Crazy Hawaiian Mad Pineapple”

 

[Devin@AEM]

It was my pleasure. Thank you as well.

I'm looking forward to meeting with Rob next week and will stay in touch with you guys. Call me if you and/or Ken can make it to PRI.

OT - KC called me yesterday about Garth's car. Shifting 7s in the quarter . Tell him I said congrats when you see him next and I owe those guys a gold plated AEM box enclosure. Holy $h!t.

 

[nsxxtreme]

We always ground the engine and have experimented with grounding the heads and the coils. In fact we have in one case put so many grounding straps that we were at risk of creating a ground loop.

This statement bothers me. A ground loop is an impedence mismatch between two ground sources. By adding additional different ground paths you do not solve the grounding problem you only make it worse.

I dont know what configuration you used but it just doesn't sound correct.

Glad we can keep this professional guys.

 

[Flexer]

This statement bothers me. A ground loop is an impedence mismatch between two ground sources. By adding additional different ground paths you do not solve the grounding problem you only make it worse.

I dont know what configuration you used but it just doesn't sound correct.

Glad we can keep this professional guys.

If you don't mind expand on your comments. How can adding more grounding straps actually increase the problem of bad grounding?

Thanks!

J. R.

 

[nsxxtreme]

If you don't mind expand on your comments. How can adding more grounding straps actually increase the problem of bad grounding?
Thanks!
J. R.

Each additional ground strap is an additional path for current to flow. If the impedence through each path is the same this isn't a problem. It is very difficult to ensure the impedence through each generic piece of wire is the same.

 

[Esprit1]

If you don't mind expand on your comments. How can adding more grounding straps actually increase the problem of bad grounding?

Thanks!

J. R.

Ground Loop in audiophile talk cause the hum and buzz you sometimes hear in stereo system, speakers to be exact. At the risk of oversimplification, each wire that comes in and out of an electronic component carries a certain amount of impedance. All components not being created equal, henceforth impedance are not equal. In an elaborate audio system where one find upwards of 20 to 30 components plug into 5 to 6 AC circuits across miles of wires, the risk of creating ground loop is very likely. It didn't surprise me to measure a mV or two differences between grounds in such systems.

Translate to car talk. Modern vehicle carries extensive network of wires and relies on sensitive micro processors to keep them running. Engineers and designers spent countless hours testing and constructing the electrical system. The minute we begin hacking and re-engineering their work, we risk upsetting the balance of the system and creating gound loops. If hum is bad for audio system, it doesn't take much of an imagination to relate that to the sensors and ECU.

Two ways I know to resolve ground loop in audio systems are, 1) floating ground, and 2) star ground. I'm sure some brilliant mind here already know how to relate this to our vehicles.

Best Regards
Paul

 

[nsxxtreme]

Great explanation. Sorry I dont like to write long winded explanations.
I might add to the explanation that if there is noise on the power rail it will propagate to every circuit inside the device.

I might also point out designers do have ways to combat noisy power rails.

Some do it better then others.

 

[Flexer]

Great explanation. Sorry I dont like to write long winded explanations.
I might add to the explanation that if there is noise on the power rail it will propagate to every circuit inside the device.

I might also point out designers do have ways to combat noisy power rails.

Some do it better then others.

With all this said, could you make a suggestion how how one might go about improving the grounding in a vehicle. I thought by adding more grounds that it would do it, but you guys are saying this is not true, this can actually escalade the problem. Can you give me a solution then to getting better grounds? Would grounding more to the Bat help?

J. R.

 

[myhui]

With all this said, could you make a suggestion how how one might go about improving the grounding in a vehicle.

Let's take this in a different direction. The following will vastly improve both the accuracy and reliability of an ECU reading signals from sensors.

Use a separate ground for each sensor, supplied from the ECU, and isolate the sensor's ground from the car's chassis.

Use shielded cable for all connections between ECU and sensor.

For some sensors, due to the way they are constructed, you have to use chassis ground. In that case, run a differential signal to the ECU with one wire on the sensor and another wire on the ground nearest the sensor.

 

[Esprit1]

Let's take this in a different direction. The following will vastly improve both the accuracy and reliability of an ECU reading signals from sensors.

Use a separate ground for each sensor, supplied from the ECU, and isolate the sensor's ground from the car's chassis.

Use shielded cable for all connections between ECU and sensor.

For some sensors, due to the way they are constructed, you have to use chassis ground. In that case, run a differential signal to the ECU with one wire on the sensor and another wire on the ground nearest the sensor.

This configuration is call "Star Ground".......:wink:

 

[Flexer]

This configuration is call "Star Ground".......:wink:

So the ecu it self has multiple grounding outputs, yet the stock set-up doesn't ground each sensor to them? It grounds them to the chasis? And it would be better to remove all the ground to the chassis and instead run them to one of the ecu grounds?

J. R>

 

[HYPERTUNE]

So the ecu it self has multiple grounding outputs, yet the stock set-up doesn't ground each sensor to them? It grounds them to the chasis? And it would be better to remove all the ground to the chassis and instead run them to one of the ecu grounds?

J. R>

All the sensors used by the ECU on the NSX are grounded at the ECU. (As far as I can remember anyway)

Most factory ECU's have a few sensor grounds, but not necessarily one for each sensor (They share some grounds).

The only sensors on the engine that I can think of that don't have a separate ground are for the dash (water temp, oil press. etc.)

I wouldn't go removing grounds for the engine and connecting them to an ECU ground. (The ECU sensor grounds are not necessarily grounded directly to the -ve terminal anyway) If you did, you could have all the current from your starter motor (for example) being grounded through your ECU

 

[d1 guy]

I would like to jump in and give my 2 cents about aem. I would like to commend their group because of their aem stand alone ems. I have used the apexi power fc in the past in my fd and couldnt get it tuned perfectly. I couldnt really get any tech help over the phone because apparently you have to take your car to a licensed apexi shop to get it tuned. I decided to go with the aem ems on my mkiv t04r setup (703rwhp on c16). I recieved great tech help over the phone and so did the shop that fine tuned my car. I even experienced a power failure while I was connecting my laptop to my ems and it messed up something in the board. I called up aem and they said that anytime it is disconnected like that, you have to have a new board. I immediately assumed that I had to spend another 1k. Luckily I did not. They just mailed me another one....they even overnighted it to me because they knew I was in a bind. All in all, my car got a perfect tune with the ems and btw, I had a uego in my car and the readings on it were exactly the same as the fjo the shop used. Is all the aem bashing really called for? All of my dealings with them have been very good and I certainly trust their products on my cars. Im sure they have their share of problems, but gees can anyone name a company that has never had any problems?