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Brake upgrade - cost efficient way

Joined
15 May 2009
Messages
163
Location
Budapest - Hungary
Hi,

I want to upgrade my brakes for track days a bit and do it in a cost efficinet way. I do not have problem with the stopping power currently, but fading is a problem with the factory setup.

The idea is to use the factory calippers, with good quality and larger 2 piece rotors and with good brake pads and good cooling. Maintaining the factory bias and the relative low weight. There are several on the market, and to be honest I need some opinion which direction to go.

ROTOR BRANDS:

  • AP Racing CP 5000
  • AP Racing CP 2589/CP7080/CP4475
  • PFC V2 Direct Drive
  • Racing brake (the one from Dali for example)
  • Any other ??
ROTORS SIZE:

  • What size to use with the factory calippers front and rear?
  • What is the maximum size which will fit in?
  • Front: 324x28mm or 330x??mm or ???x??mm
  • Rear: Racing brakes offers a 330x23mm. It is strange as the factory rear is smaller than the front. Is that OK?
BRAKE PADS:

  • PFC
  • ProjectM
  • ???
Thanks in advance all comments!
Bye
Tamás
 
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Hi,Tamas
I upgraded my front brakes whit 328 mm slot disc whit 6 pistons calipers Tarox and break pads.It cost 1900 euro.It is going on 17" front wheel.
 
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fading is a problem with the factory setup.
No, it isn't.

The two most common causes of fading have nothing to do with the factory setup.

The most common cause is often called "green pad syndrome". When pads are heated up for the first few times, they fade. This is the most common reason some people erroneously think that the factory setup fades. You go out for the first track session, or the first two track sessions, and the pads fade. What a surprise. Then, after that, the pads are fine (no fading) for the remainder of their lifetime.

You can avoid this by using a proper bedding procedure before taking the car onto the track (and do this every time you have new pads or rotors). Bedding gets the pads nice and hot, and you can (and should) do this on the street, not at the track. You can read more about it in the technical white papers on the Stoptech website. Bedding the pads also creates a uniform layer of brake pad deposits on the surface of the rotors, which avoids vibrations.

Another common cause of fading by beginners at the track is overbraking. Beginners often brake too early, braking for a long period of time rather than in short, hard stops. Beginners also often slow down too much for each corner. So they use way more brakes than needed.

With proper bedding and with no overuse of the brakes, the stock setup doesn't fade.

If you like, you can also use aftermarket brake pads - either pads that can be used on the street or the track, such as the Hawk HP+ pads, or pads that are designed to be used only on the track. Such pads often have downsides like squealing, ineffectiveness when cold, or excessive dusting, which is why most folks use these pads only at the track and switch to street pads before and after events if they use their car on the street.

There is absolutely no need to change the NSX brake setup (calipers, rotors, etc) for it to be used successfully on the track without fade.
 
No, it isn't.

The two most common causes of fading have nothing to do with the factory setup.

The most common cause is often called "green pad syndrome". When pads are heated up for the first few times, they fade. This is the most common reason some people erroneously think that the factory setup fades. You go out for the first track session, or the first two track sessions, and the pads fade. What a surprise. Then, after that, the pads are fine (no fading) for the remainder of their lifetime.

You can avoid this by using a proper bedding procedure before taking the car onto the track (and do this every time you have new pads or rotors). Bedding gets the pads nice and hot, and you can (and should) do this on the street, not at the track. You can read more about it in the technical white papers on the Stoptech website. Bedding the pads also creates a uniform layer of brake pad deposits on the surface of the rotors, which avoids vibrations.

Another common cause of fading by beginners at the track is overbraking. Beginners often brake too early, braking for a long period of time rather than in short, hard stops. Beginners also often slow down too much for each corner. So they use way more brakes than needed.

With proper bedding and with no overuse of the brakes, the stock setup doesn't fade.

If you like, you can also use aftermarket brake pads - either pads that can be used on the street or the track, such as the Hawk HP+ pads, or pads that are designed to be used only on the track. Such pads often have downsides like squealing, ineffectiveness when cold, or excessive dusting, which is why most folks use these pads only at the track and switch to street pads before and after events if they use their car on the street.

There is absolutely no need to change the NSX brake setup (calipers, rotors, etc) for it to be used successfully on the track without fade.

hmm...thanks.


  • I use Yokohama slicks on the track (230/61/17 and 280/650/18).
  • Whit this setup, do You thinkk that with OEM brake setup and proper bedding it will be fine?
 
No, it isn't.

There is absolutely no need to change the NSX brake setup (calipers, rotors, etc) for it to be used successfully on the track without fade.

Depends on how you drive! :cool:

OEM setup with OEM pads - I can get to fade in 3 laps of HARD driving!


I'm not saying you have to go to BBK, only good pads and COOLING DUCTS, and I'm not talking about the Dali, STMPO, DF brake cooling deflectors but hoses going to the middle of the rotors, will help with fade, longevity before rotors crack (they will eventually) and pad wear. I have cooling hoses going to the rear of my rotors AND Dali larger air deflectors.
 
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Hi,

I want to upgrade my brakes for track days a bit and do it in a cost efficinet way. I do not have problem with the stopping power currently, but fading is a problem with the factory setup.

The idea is to use the factory calippers, with good quality and larger 2 piece rotors and with good brake pads and good cooling. Maintaining the factory bias and the relative low weight. There are several on the market, and to be honest I need some opinion which direction to go.

ROTOR BRANDS:

  • AP Racing CP 5000
  • AP Racing CP 2589/CP7080/CP4475
  • PFC V2 Direct Drive
  • Racing brake (the one from Dali for example)
  • Any other ??
ROTORS SIZE:

  • What size to use with the factory calippers front and rear?
  • What is the maximum size which will fit in?
  • Front: 324x28mm or 330x??mm or ???x??mm
  • Rear: Racing brakes offers a 330x23mm. It is strange as the factory rear is smaller than the front. Is that OK?
BRAKE PADS:

  • PFC
  • ProjectM
  • ???
Thanks in advance all comments!
Bye
Tamás

Well Hawk and EBC are good pads too.

Anyway if you are putting larger diameter rotors your going to need custom brackets.

You can also try to put NA2 brackets on, and going to NA2 rotors
Next to that if you'd need more front bais or bigger front brakes KA7 and KA8 Honda Legend twin piston calipers should fit your brackets they have larger pistons and best bit they are dirt cheap.

Anyway like pointed out brake ducts (race style) will help a lot.
Big factor now would be what's your current brake setup (what pads?)

But first of all like nsxtasy said change pads and bed them in good that should help a lot.
 
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  • I use Yokohama slicks on the track (230/61/17 and 280/650/18).
  • Whit this setup, do You thinkk that with OEM brake setup and proper bedding it will be fine?
Try it!

I have driven over 13K actual track miles in the NSX with the stock calipers and no fading.

OEM setup with OEM pads - I can get to fade in 3 laps of HARD driving!
I don't believe it. Not with OEM pads that have already been used in a couple of track sessions, so there is no "green pad syndrome".

You can also try to put NA2 brackets on, and going to NA2 rotors
There is no such thing as "NA2 brackets" or "NA2 rotors". NA2 is an engine code that refers to the 3.2-liter engine, which has nothing to do with the brakes.

The NSX was sold with two versions of brakes in North America. The '91-96 NSX had one version; all of those models were NA1 cars. The '97-05 NSX had a slightly different version, that was used on the NA1 cars and the NA2 cars sold during those years.
 
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There is no such thing as "NA2 brackets" or "NA2 rotors". NA2 is an engine code that refers to the 3.2-liter engine, which has nothing to do with the brakes.

The NSX was sold with two versions of brakes in North America. The '91-96 NSX had one version; all of those models were NA1 cars. The '97-05 NSX had a slightly different version, that was used on the NA1 cars and the NA2 cars sold during those years.
I think it's safe to say he was talking about the particular (larger) brake rotors on the NA2 chassis code cars. NA2 brakes in short - for the purposes of this discussion seems good enough for me.

Anyway, does the OP have NA2 brakes or NA1 brakes? I must have missed that somewhere.
 
I have driven over 13K actual track miles in the NSX with the stock calipers and no fading.

Yes, but not very fast. :)

I don't believe it. Not with OEM pads that have already been used in a couple of track sessions, so there is no "green pad syndrome".

Some us drive a bit harder than you (I've riden with you at Mid Ohio) and yes, the OEM pads that have even been heat cycled will fade bad after a few hard laps. Hell, I could get HP+ to fade at Putnam and that's with 2" cooling ducts. And before you tell me I'm braking wrong.... let me know when you can break 1:22 at Putnam Park or 1:38 at Autobahn South on stock pads and street tires.

OP - OEM pads are for the street, leave them there. And BTW at $200 a set they are extreamly overpriced street pads with no better performance than $35 Autozone specials.

PS: Going from 91-96 calipers/rotors to 97+ isn't going to make enough of a difference to be worth the swap. It would be better than nothing, but good pads and cooling ducts will give you 90% of the fade resistance you are looking for with minimal cost.

Skip the street/combo pads like HP+ etc and get a track pad. It takes 1/2 hr to swap pads and you can really run them on the street to/from and in between events if you have two in a row coming up - the downside is they dust like crazy. And when you hear people say that they won't stop when cold - BS! maybe during the winter. :) I have run PFC01, Hawk DTC70, DTC60, Carbotech XP10s which are all track pads and the bite and stopping ability even when not warmed up was more than adequate for commute to the track 180 miles. In order to be in their operating range, yes they need to warm up - but they still stop the car when cold.

PS - Ken, I don't mean to slam on you, but you brake like my Grandma :) and telling people that YOU don't get fade with the OEM pads does not mean that those of us who drive our cars at 9/10ths don't. :)
 
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I got a little fade at the end of Lap 1 at buttonwillow in my street-tired stock motor NSX, and more fade on Lap 2. I have Carbotech Panther Plus pads front and rear with the stock '92 brakes and ATE Superblue fluid.

Ryneen is using PFC 01 pads on his Brembo Lotus front setup and has put over 3,000 street miles and about 4-6 track days on the 01 race pads. Apparently he loves them on the street, the cold bit is great, and it didn't tear the rotor up. Huge surprise for even me to hear it, let alone see it myself.



Billy
 
So to summarize with some accepted disagreement on the pad of choice,
the order of attack (with you being a competent driver assumed) should probably go something like:

-Proper fluid & bleeding
-Better pads
-Ducting

Then if that doesn't work look at larger setups.

Condensed for my own understanding.

Also, was it stated somewhere, or just assumed that the OP is talking about pad fade and not fluid fade? (i.e. firm pedal, no bite vs. just mushy pedal)
 
I got a little fade at the end of Lap 1 at buttonwillow in my street-tired stock motor NSX, and more fade on Lap 2. I have Carbotech Panther Plus pads front and rear with the stock '92 brakes and ATE Superblue fluid.

Ryneen is using PFC 01 pads on his Brembo Lotus front setup and has put over 3,000 street miles and about 4-6 track days on the 01 race pads. Apparently he loves them on the street, the cold bit is great, and it didn't tear the rotor up. Huge surprise for even me to hear it, let alone see it myself.

Billy


I loved everything about the PFC01s except price. Ran them on the street too. Switchted to Hawk DTC70s because I got them $50 cheaper and they are just as good on the track and street. :)
 
So to summarize with some accepted disagreement on the pad of choice,
the order of attack (with you being a competent driver assumed) should probably go something like:

-Proper fluid & bleeding
-Better pads
-Ducting

Then if that doesn't work look at larger setups.

Condensed for my own understanding.

Also, was it stated somewhere, or just assumed that the OP is talking about pad fade and not fluid fade? (i.e. firm pedal, no bite vs. just mushy pedal)

I think it is a good summary :)

I will look now for some better pad and ducting...the rest is already done :)
 
I loved everything about the PFC01s except price. Ran them on the street too. Switchted to Hawk DTC70s because I got them $50 cheaper and they are just as good on the track and street. :)

Would be nice to see some pads with price.....
 
If you delete you AC, you have air comming directly from the front spoiler (where are the EU fog lights) to the brakes. Get big deflectors and delete the stock dust plates around teh rotor. This would be far enough (with good pads and fluid). If you still have the AC, you will have to work on some ducts. You can use the stock dust plates to come close to the rotors with the duct. 2 piece rotors and/or rotors with curved cooling veins can help a little bit more. Go thios way before going bigger.
 
I still don't believe that you can get OEM pads - ones that have been used on the track - to fade after three laps. It just won't happen - not to me, not to you, not to a faster driver than either of us (and from what I saw when we were together, you are nowhere near as fast as you claim to be).

However, I do believe that your incredible arrogance and insults render any opinion you have worthless.
 
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So to summarize with some accepted disagreement on the pad of choice,
the order of attack (with you being a competent driver assumed) should probably go something like:

-Proper fluid & bleeding
-Better pads
-Ducting

Then if that doesn't work look at larger setups.
Nice summary!
 
I still don't believe that you can get OEM pads - ones that have been used on the track - to fade after three laps. It just won't happen - not to me, not to you, not to a faster driver than either of us (and from what I saw when we were together, you are nowhere near as fast as you claim to be).

However, I do believe that your incredible arrogance and insults render any opinion you have worthless.

First off Ken, that was five years ago with Chin Motorsports and my second time in my NSX on the track and you have NEVER been in my car. I believe you can see my lap times in my videos from the Racelogic data logger mounted on the windshield...

attachment.php

That sure looks like a 121.9 to me (on street tires - Dunlop z1). :tongue:



Secondly, I apologize for the insults and making this personal, that was uncalled for on my part. Ken, I believe you are a good solid driver and a fine instructor.

Now.... I think you are misleading people into thinking that the OEM pads are more than adequate for track driving because of your personal experiences and your driving style. OEM calipers and rotors ARE fine with proper fluid and good track pads.

I can tell you first hand that last time I was up at Mid Ohio with my car and Ray05NSX that he drove mine a session and I drove his. After the 3rd lap on the back straight we almost ended up in China Beach off the end because Ray's OEM pads faded - BAD. I managed to still make the turn, and said to Ray "forgot you're running stock pads". These where NOT Green pads as this was day two and an afternoon session. Yes, when I slowed down and babied the brakes and braked earlier than I normally do, they were marginally fine. But for any kind of hard driving (intermediate level or above) OEM pads belong on the street - not the track. As you and I both know, brake fade is not a fun experience, especially when it happens in a bad place.

I got a little fade at the end of Lap 1 at buttonwillow in my street-tired stock motor NSX, and more fade on Lap 2. I have Carbotech Panther Plus pads front and rear with the stock '92 brakes and ATE Superblue fluid.
 

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I loved everything about the PFC01s except price. Ran them on the street too. Switchted to Hawk DTC70s because I got them $50 cheaper and they are just as good on the track and street. :)
Not quite sure I would agree since they have different characteristics especially modulation and release characteristics.

IMO the $50 premium is worth it for the 01s.
 
Not quite sure I would agree since they have different characteristics especially modulation and release characteristics.

IMO the $50 premium is worth it for the 01s.


Billy, I just pulled the DTC70s off to swap back to street pads and I can say that they are wearing A LOT quicker than the PFC01s. I went though 1/2 the pad (DTC70) in 2 days. I think I will go back to the PFC01s after these are done. :wink: But I do have to say that the DTC70 is a pretty good pad - plenty of bite, good release and no fade.
 
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I apologize
Cool.
icon14.gif


Getting back to the selection of brake pads, there are a lot of different brake pads out there. And the "good news", if you can call it that, is, if you're going to drive your car on the track, you will be wearing those pads out and replacing them pretty often. So this means you can try out one kind of brake pad, and if you don't like something about it, you can just try a different one next time.

Brake pads tend to fall into two general categories. There are "street pads", the best of which are "street/track pads" that can hold up to the demands of track use, and there are "track pads", which are designed for use on the track. Track pads provide the best braking grip. The downsides of track pads are that they often squeal, they often dust considerably, and they usually are not very effective until they get warmed up. Those downsides generally aren't important for track use, but may be relevant if you intend to use them on the street as well. Street/track pads don't provide as much grip on the track, but typically don't have most of these downsides.

Obviously, if you only use your car on the track (or to or from the track), using track pads all the time may be fine for you. If you never take your car to the track, using street pads all the time will be fine too. If you use your car on the street as well as on the track, there are several ways to deal with your situation. Some people switch pads at the start and end of track events, so they use track pads on the track, and street pads on the street - which is a fine solution as long as you don't mind doing the swap. Otherwise, if you want to use the same pads all the time, you have to make some kind of compromise - using track pads on the street and living with their downsides, or using street/track pads on the track and living with a bit less braking power than track pads can offer.

Personally, I have found that Hawk HP+ brake pads, which are street/track pads, are a nice compromise. For my needs and usage, they offer very good braking power on the track, and they stand up to the heat of track use. Once they're bedded and heat cycled, they don't fade, they don't squeal, and they don't need warmup. They dust a lot, but the dust washes off easily. The only real downside I've found with them is that they don't last all that long with track use, typically 300-400 miles on the NSX front, and about twice that on the NSX rear. But I'm not worried about every last tenth of a second in lap time, and those looking for the ultimate in track braking may prefer good track-only pads, which is fine - different pads for different folks.

As noted above, you can try out different pads and see what solution is the best for you. I strongly recommend bringing an extra set of brake pads any time you go to the track, so you can change the pads if you use up the ones on the car. If you're thinking about trying a different brand or type of pad, buy a set and have those ready for your next brake change. If you'd like to try out a set of track-only pads, or a different brand of pad, go ahead! If you don't like how they work out, try something else next time.
 
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I have one thing to add to the above.... some pads do not like to be layered on top of other pads bedded material. For example, when I installed my PF01s after using Brembo street pads they juddered and shook like crazy almost to the point where I thought the suspension was falling apart. I put in a set of Hawk Blues which are very abrasive when cold and did a few stops with them and it basically grinds off the pad material on the rotor so you have a fresh rotor to bed in your new pads with.

The other way you can do this is to have the rotors turned. However, you are removing material so you don't want to have to do this every time you change from street pads to track or different manufacturers.

Some pads are much more problematic than others. Hawk HP+s and Carbotechs I never had a problem switching from one to the others, but other I have. That is why I invested in a set of Hawk Blues to use solely for the purpose of "cleaning" the rotors before switching pads of different manufacturers or street to track and back, etc.
 
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I believe upgrading the brakes on the NSX is both expensive and difficult.
I personally started with a kit for the front manufactured by Movit from Germany.
The original kit uses 322*32 mm disks and calipers from the 993 Porsche twin turbo.
It didn't perform well at all as the bias on the front brakes was way too high!
Next step, I built my own kit for the rear based on AP 4 piston calipers with slotted NA2 disks.
The calipers were selected to match the original 60% bias on the front wheels.
Great result for the road except that the original road going Porsche pads would deposit too much matter on the disks in racing conditions creating tremendous judder...
Finally after discussing the issue with a Porsche GT3 RS racer, I adopted Pagid "yellow" compound pads(RS 29).
The result is now amazing!
I can now come behind ANY Porsche that is braking for a curve and be sure I will not ram into him!
These pads are also OK for the street as they brake effectively when cold although they do squeal sometimes.
I hope this helps your quest for the "perfect" brakes.

John
 
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