Brilliant cars, excellent bodyshop, sad result

[simsgw]

Many of you have been following the story of our crashed NA2, the 1999 NSX-T that was taken by Valencia Acura for service and never returned. In short form, the driver picking it up took it up a mountain road and spun violently. The "fender bender" (as the dealer described it when refusing to fix anything) reached an estimated repair cost of $36,000 before USAA and we agreed to call it a day. VIN JH4NA2169XT000068 (Damn. I can still do that VIN from memory) is now a memory.

Here are some clean-up comments. Some information gained that may help someone else.

First, San Pedro Auto Body was excellent in every respect. We were determined to get our car back on the road again and I researched the shops closely before choosing one. San Pedro AB is not only mentioned here on NSX Prime, but I also managed to reach some people inside Acura Corporate. (Technically, "Honda America" at that level.) No one would be quoted naturally, but they effectively said that San Pedro's people knew at least as much about repairing the NSX as does the factory in Tochigi. I even found the guy who was driving the first NSX in the country when he was rear-ended. Heavily. They researched body shops near the port of entry, found San Pedro Auto Body and sent in factory engineers to jointly develop methods of repairing that unique thing: an all-aluminum car. San Pedro Auto Body has since repaired hundreds of NSX cars for Honda America. (I expressed disbelief and got an inside story probably worth repeating, but not tonight.) And to my obvious question: yes, the staff are the same. They named the owners and shop manager and those people are the ones Cindy and I met.

Speaking as an engineer, I found nothing to disagree with concerning their expertise. We met with the shop manager and one of the owners and enjoyed working with them all. No bullshit from anyone, and a very careful bunch of people when it comes to handling exotic cars.

Fabian in particular is extremely knowledgable. The shop manager. He reminds me of some very experienced sergeants I knew in airframe repair. One of those people you hope to find. You know he can build up an NSX from the parts shelf if he has too, but you feel like he could do with his eyes closed after you work with him for a day. I should say we went over XT000068 like a forensics lab trying to find all the damage from a poorly reported accident and then determine how much was cosmetic and where the structural stuff began.

At the end, the finishing touch was finding frame damage. Repairable, and located where we could magnaflux the affected areas after straightening, but nevertheless it was the unforgivable case of "a bent frame" which means the resale value will plummet. I spent a final week discussing with our attorney and Cindy, racking up a total of nearly $75,000 we would have to sue for from the dealer if we proceeded with repairs. After all that, Cindy said no.

It was her car. I bought it for her when we retired. (A symbolic return on the computer she bought me to start our business.) She said no. "Sell it to the insurance company. I don't want it back. Buy a car for yourself. It's your turn now."

So I'm driving a 2009 Carrera 911S now. While it not's quite the class act an NSX is, it seems very fast and with enough quirks to have a personality of its own soon. May call it LCOMOTIV since it pulls like one from low rpm. And after all, I am an engineer.:wink:

For those who don't know the whole story, Cindy had a major stroke a couple of years ago. She was just a passenger in her car since then, and I know that always grieved her. Adding the wounding memory of this crash by getting in a different NSX every day would not have been a happy thing, so I moved to another exotic famous for daily driver livability.

For the record, we considered three very good cars before deciding to buy Porsche instead. Actually, four, but the fourth one sold while we were working out our options. All of these are low mile NA2 cars with clean carfax and in the first two cases, the sellers struck me as people I'd be willing to buy a car from at long distance. That's saying a lot if you knew Cindy and me. So someone might as well benefit from our search:

Dr Phil in Connecticutt has one in the very rare Red on Red color combination. First reaction is shock, then you start thinking how it would look in your driveway. Lovely striking car. [email protected]

Dr Loos in Philadelphia has a black on black. He has a BMW seven series for bad weather days so the NSX was just his weekend darling. Now he has a Ferrari too, and his wife is chiding him about the size of his toy box. (Oh to have such problems.) Another pampered darling I'll always regret not buying. [email protected]

Fabian at San Pedro Auto Body told me of another special find just tonight. In this case, I haven't spoken to the owner myself, but Fabian vouches for the car's condition and I can't imagine a better judge of an NSX, so this recommendation is at second hand, but a strong one anyway.

He didn't know we'd made up our mind and bought a 911S already. He called mostly to say that our NSX had been picked up and he was mailing us some items he thought we might want, like the personalized license plate. This one he told me about is silver on black -- just like ours -- with 25k miles. A friend of his is recently widowed and this was his wife's car. He has four others and wants to sell the NSX. (Probably to help get over her death, I would say; but that may be an old man talking. Maybe his insurance premiums are just too high with five cars. Oh, to have such... wait. I said that already.) I wouldn't have considered this one at all since choosing the same color Cindy did would have really made it hurt every time she got in. Nevertheless, it sounds like another sweetheart. Nice VIN too: "Ol' number six" JH4NA21674S000006 [email protected]

I would commend these to your personal attention, but everyone here on the owner's forum is already happy. You wouldn't want to be greedy and buy two or three of these rare and lovely cars, would you? [You in the back! I know you. Put your checkbook away.] But if you know anyone looking for a car who would be happier in a car -- that is, the NSX -- let them know of these beauties.

I have nothing to do with any of them of course. All I did was run a carfax and talk to the current owner. Except in the last case where I talked to the guy who has maintained the body work from life's occasional insults. (From the carfax, it looks like all the service was done by a single dealer for the car's lifetime: Power Acura South Bay in Torrance California.) I guess I'll go post a third party note on the "for sale" forum about this one at San Pedro. Maybe a fellow NSX Primer can take advantage of one of these opportunities.

It's been a long traumatic haul from the phone call on 25 Sep about "the little accident" in our car, but these things usually work out for the best. We've got a new car warranty to keep us warm, and Fabian insists that somebody will grab our NSX at auction and get it back on the road. Without insurability concerns from that straightened frame some lucky soul will have a bargain price for an NA2 that was so well maintained. (Until the morning from Hell anyway...:frown

Not precisely signing off, but I'll probably not even lurk for a few weeks until we quit moaning here. My best to you all. Enjoy your cars,

Gary

 

[enkrypt3d]

I remember this car... what a story! Do you have the link w/ the pics of the damage for historical sake? Good luck!

 

[Acura NsX Pilot]

Im just curious if your insurance company is going to go after the dealer ?

 

[simsgw]

Im just curious if your insurance company is going to go after the dealer ?

Yes. With glee, as I read the reactions of the people at USAA who dealt with us. Given the car was headed for salvage anyway [sob], we were much better off dealing with USAA than the dealer's insurance company.

 

[simsgw]

I remember this car... what a story! Do you have the link w/ the pics of the damage for historical sake? Good luck!

I just created an album with a small selection of the many photos that San Pedro Auto Body sent us as they processed the car for an estimate.

This is the URL http://www.nsxprime.com/forums/album.php?albumid=333 but if that doesn't work, it is the second album in my... profile? Is that the word? My user details anyway.

The other album is our new 911S. Nice car. Not an NSX sadly. And all the people who come to ask what happened to our "other car" say the same thing in almost exactly those words. People love an NSX. They just see a Porsche and say "Oh. Pretty car." At least in California where Porsches are "as common as carrots" to quote a magazine writer.

 

[PDLNSX]

We will see this car for sale in 6 months

 

[4AU4LIFE]

Very sorry to hear about yet another story of a dealership wrecking an NSX after taking it out for a joyride.
It is really hard to put into words but I must say that I really enjoy reading your posts. I can't really put my finger on it on exactly why, but when I do read it, it's like you are sitting there talking to me and I can almost see your hand movements and facial expressions as you relay the story. You truly know how to tell a story and type it up very well. Punctuation, spelling, sentence structure is all spot on and is a absolute pleasure to read.
Thanks for that.

 

[pgilliam1]

It just doesn't look "totaled" to me. With that small amount of body damage it must not take a very hard hit to bend these frames (maybe the impact had more of a twisting force?). Kind of worrisome really.

 

[simsgw]

It just doesn't look "totaled" to me. With that small amount of body damage it must not take a very hard hit to bend these frames (maybe the impact had more of a twisting force?). Kind of worrisome really.

Nothing much to worry the people inside. All part of the crush space intended to keep the g-loads low for the passenger compartment. This was admittedly a worst case for dollar loss. Not just one corner absorbing all that energy, but two. Left rear and right front. Corner impacts require that a lot of material be warped and crushed to absorb the energy. Notice that little loop sticking forward from the frame member? That's our tow hook, and of course, it must be connected directly to the frame to transfer the load when a winch begins pulling the car onto a flat bed.

So here comes the car after bouncing off a rock mountainside, common in California coastal mountains, spinning ever gracefully and impacting... well, hitting something on the right front corner. Driver said a guard rail. Okay. (Doesn't look quite like a guard rail impact unless it was the low stone wall type used on some of our highways from the days of Roosevelt's work crews.) The superficial stuff is like Kleenex in a situation like that. The first solid bit to take a load is that tow hook. The bumper is compressing naturally, just as it should. But the tow hook can't compress, so the load transfers to the right front frame rail. Now this part is even rippled in places, like corrugation, to force deformation to occur at those points. It wasn't too difficult for a direct corner blow to transfer enough energy to bend the frame rail where it has that foot-long lever bolted to it: the tow hook.

It is sad but true, that designing a vehicle to absorb collision energy more gradually necessarily entails sacrificing pieces in accidents that needn't have done damage. (Or at least nothing serious -- other than killing the driver.) This was a domino situation, just as it should be to protect the people inside. The bumper took the initial impact and began compressing. The tow hook picked up the load from whatever surface it met. The bumper continued to compress of course, because the material accepting the impact would have begun to crush from that concentrated load. So the point load from the frame through the tow hook to the impact point was only one path for the energy. In addition to that, as the car continued forward, the bumper compressed. That picked up the front air plates[?]... anyway there's a piece there that moves air up, probably to keep the nose from building lift at high speeds, but it may have other value. Might redirect the air to the side to cool the brakes. That piece moved back into the anti-roll bar. The anti-roll bar was shifted back off its mountings into the... I think it was the shocks that were hit next. And the knee bone's connected to the thigh bone and the thigh bone's connected to... You see where this is going. Did I mention the air conditioning compressor? It died early in that sequence.

Now do the same thing in the left rear corner. See that spot the dealer called a 'scuff'? That's probably the first impact point in the whole collision. The side motion from this happening in a spin caused that lateral scraping she called a scuff, but the forward motion caused the rest of the damage. Dominos again. The valence panel pushed up and forward, that bent the left rear fender and broke one of the brackets. The car continued into the rock wall and the left exhaust pipe was the next part to pick up the load. That moved forward of course. You can't balance the whole car on one exhaust pipe, which is what the impact load amounted to. The pipe took the exhaust muffler with it and transfered load to the cats. One of those shifting pieces transferred load to the engine mount in that area, so that has to be replaced as well.

The car continued spinning across a shoulder on a rocky mountain road. That means rocks from four to ten inches across. It looks like an eight incher was overridden from the front, that scraped grooves in the aerodynamic panel under the car until one of the trailing arms impacted the rock and either crushed it or pushed it enough to one side that it was able to exit without further signs we could see.

Now some of that stuff is probably just cosmetic. To quote Jerry Seinfeld in a memorable episode: "A lot of that will just buff right out," he said, looking at George's car trashed in a vandalism act.

Some of it probably is just cosmetic and underneath the car, who'll know? Trouble is we're talking about aluminum and much of that is probably cast aluminum, not forged, for various reasons too boring to bear. Cast metals can suffer cracks difficult to find with the classic magnafluxing technique. We use x-rays in the Air Force and NASA, but that isn't practical for parts this cheap. [cough choke...] So if it took a blow, replace it. Now things start to add up fast when the owner says he won't accept used factory parts, let alone aftermarket sources.

All in all, I followed the path of the impact energy pretty well once the car was on a lift, but I agree that sitting on the ground, it just didn't look like more than $15k or so of damage. The first 'superficial' estimate by USAA's appraiser was only $7,400, but he was careful to warn us to expect more once they pulled the external panels and got a look at the suspension and such. He was right.

Oh yes. Both wheels on the right were scarred up. USAA planned to replace both tires and recondition and refinish both wheels. A thousand here, a thousand there, and pretty soon you're into Hyundai range. Buying one I mean, with the cost of a quick spin in an NSX.

I do agree that someone will put it back on the road. Someone who cares will put his real money -- a couple of thousand -- into straightening the frame. He'll magnaflux that and if he sees no cracks, the rest is a matter of some visits to the exotic junk yard, and a few creative replacement choices from Pep Boys for items like the exhaust. Buy it for six to eight thousand, put ten into it and you have a wonderful sports car that looks wonderful. Well, unless you put it on a lift and look up. And it should be completely re-finished to deal with all those rock chips and that's another $12,500 minimum at a place like San Pedro. If you walk in cold without all this other work to be done, they want fifteen to paint an NSX. But you don't have to spend that if you looking for a cheap but glorious ride.

I wouldn't do any of that cheap method with a daily driver of ours, but I can see someone doing that to get a fun car for less than twenty. Especially because some simple tests (since we kept the maintenance records) will show that the drive train is very fit despite the 145,000 miles we put on it. We spent about ten thousand on the engine a couple of years ago, and I'd expect it to go another hundred thousand without needing any attention except the timing belt in another thirty thousand or so. I'd have to check the records to be sure, but isn't 90k the replacement mileage? Cindy would have had that done a few thousand early, so conservatism might call for another by the 175k mark.

Watch for that VIN though. Don't let anyone pass it off as a car with a record of no damage. If someone here does get it as a project car, I'll be happy to provide the maintenance records to help understand the car.

Gary

 

[simsgw]

Very sorry to hear about yet another story of a dealership wrecking an NSX after taking it out for a joyride.
It is really hard to put into words but I must say that I really enjoy reading your posts.

Thank you. I'm flattered. I have the luxury of fifty years experience on a keyboard, since my mother insisted I take typing in high school. Various reasons, but she surely couldn't have foreseen the importance of keyboards in the 21st century clear back in WWII. Could she? Mothers are spooky good sometimes.

Being able to type as fast as I speak means I just talk in my head and let my fingers try to keep up.:smile:

Gary

 

[vandale]

Hello all,

I am a little confused as to why this would be $36k to repair, dont take this as an arguement but I purchased an NSX with more damage than this and had it repaired by and an outfit here that specialise in alloy vehicle repairs. It cost me no more than $4k, this did not include any strip or fit labour as I did that myself, also did not include any bondo. You could add on an extra 48hrs for this and it would be nowhere near $50k with exchange rate.

Do you have an itemised quote for the repair as I am very interested in the cost?

Thanks

 

[pgilliam1]

FYI. I took the liberty of posting this VIN on the Salvage List forum.

 

[simsgw]

Hello all,

I am a little confused as to why this would be $36k to repair, dont take this as an arguement but I purchased an NSX with more damage than this and had it repaired by and an outfit here that specialise in alloy vehicle repairs. It cost me no more than $4k, this did not include any strip or fit labour as I did that myself, also did not include any bondo. You could add on an extra 48hrs for this and it would be nowhere near $50k with exchange rate.

Do you have an itemised quote for the repair as I am very interested in the cost?

Thanks

Somewhere, but Cindy archived it with her maintenance records in a little ceremony last week. It ran to four pages as I remember. I can tell you several contributors to the high total. First, we insisted on their using only factory new parts, no aftermarket and no parts from salvaged cars. Second, we insisted that all the rock chips from the spin must go. With the blending from the panels with major damage into adjacent panels, that meant "repaint this car." At San Pedro Auto Body, they do concours class paintwork. That's one reason we chose them. Ordinarily, that means $15,000. Period. No negotiating and no "I'll take off the chrome bits myself." In this case, because of all the other work and possibly because they had met Cindy and wanted to save the car for her if they could, they only bid ten thousand, but I don't think very many people will ever qualify for their "sweet little ol' lady" discount.

Finally, since we planned to sue the dealer, we weren't letting her get away with any damage whatsoever. "If it was damaged, replace it," we said. No straightening panels and no "buffing out" anything at all. That included things like the shock absorbers, which had been hit by the anti-roll bar as it was forced backward. Possibly the damage to the barrel was only cosmetic, but possibly not. We were not cutting this dealer any breaks for 'possibles'.

Follow that policy uniformly with a car like the NSX and you are essentially rebuildling half of it from the parts bin. And while it is an amazing benefit that Honda seem committed to producing parts in Tochigi so long as one car is left on the road, those parts are not coming off a production line anymore than the car itself did. They are expensive.

But can anyone suggest a reason we should have let this dealer get away with putting used parts on Cindy's car? Incidentally, when we added it all up with the attorney, the amount of our suit would been $77,000 dollars. And I've had people at USAA rooting for us to go ahead and sue her... even after USAA bought the car. I agree in spirit, but not in practice. We once settled a much larger suit in a business case for the same reason: unless it's your career, sitting on wooden courtroom benches is not nearly well paid enough to tempt me with mere money. Now if they'd gotten Cindy killed with a bad repair or something like that... well, a grudge will fuel a lot of courtroom time. In fact, I suspect that's what draws a lot of people into lawsuits, speaking subject to correction by our attorney members.

I just don't grudge up easily over equipment. People, yes. But I think this way will make Cindy happy sooner and more than sitting in courts for a year or so.

 

[simsgw]

FYI. I took the liberty of posting this VIN on the Salvage List forum.

Thank you. I wanted that, but didn't know how to do it myself.

 

[sidwac]

Gary, its my understanding that it's routine practice for body shops (under insurance orders) to replace parts with used parts. In some cases parts and body panels are only available used. Never had to cross this bridge, but for my NSX I'd be looking for new parts, especially considering the condition of my car. Now if it were my 235,000 mile daily driver "parkitanywhere" Previa, I would not care what they used!!

 

[simsgw]

Gary, its my understanding that it's routine practice for body shops (under insurance orders) to replace parts with used parts. In some cases parts and body panels are only available used. Never had to cross this bridge, but for my NSX I'd be looking for new parts, especially considering the condition of my car. Now if it were my 235,000 mile daily driver "parkitanywhere" Previa, I would not care what they used!!

It is, but you're under no legal obligation to accept used parts to repair damage someone has done. We members actually have a voluntary agreement with USAA to permit used parts or even aftermarket, but in the past they have seemed quite reasonable about it when I've pointed out that this part of that one wasn't really comparable. A broken windshield for example.

In this case, we were not accepting any alternatives. Nothing but factory new. With the NSX you can get anything from the factory I am told by a source high up in Honda America. "If they don't have it on hand, they'll make it for you." He implied they do the same thing for the oldest Honda on the road, but I didn't care enough about Hondas to pursue the question.

Of course, if I were repairing a Charlotte with all those miles under her belt, and paying the freight myself, I'd be willing to accept any good condition used part for cosmetic roles. Possibly a suspension part if detailed measurements confirmed no past trauma. I'm less sure about engine internals.

 

[Ben]

"If they don't have it on hand, they'll make it for you." He implied they do the same thing for the oldest Honda on the road

Alas, I wish that were true... :frown:

 

[simsgw]

Alas, I wish that were true... :frown:

Ah well, one model of all those ain't so bad. Unless you own one of the others also.:frown:

 

[Ben]

Ah well, one model of all those ain't so bad. Unless you own one of the others also.:frown:

Some parts for the earlier NSXs are also no longer available.

 

[simsgw]

Some parts for the earlier NSXs are also no longer available.

Are you sure, Ben? Or was that a dealer's answer who didn't want to waste energy? I can probably get permission to relay this name if you'll tell me your experience.

Gary

 

[Ben]

Are you sure, Ben? Or was that a dealer's answer who didn't want to waste energy? I can probably get permission to relay this name if you'll tell me your experience.

Gary

Yes, I'm sure. I've tried to get replacement seatbelts and sunvisors for a '94 tan interior, and they are no longer available. The '91-'03 keyless entry pouches are also no longer available.

Or, just ask anyone who is looking for interior parts or floormats for an ivory interior, or a '91-'92 keyless entry kits.

Some of these parts may still be available in Japan, but the average NSX owner in the US doesn't have the means to get these parts.

More recently, the original NSX oil filter, the 15400-PL2-004, has been discontinued, and is also no longer available, even in Japan.

 

[ediddynsx]

Yup all the ivory interior pieces are out of production...I bought some of the last pieces.

 

[simsgw]

Yes, I'm sure. I've tried to get replacement seatbelts and sunvisors for a '94 tan interior, and they are no longer available. The '91-'03 keyless entry pouches are also no longer available.

Or, just ask anyone who is looking for interior parts or floormats for an ivory interior, or a '91-'92 keyless entry kits.

and

Yup all the ivory interior pieces are out of production...I bought some of the last pieces.

I stand corrected, guys. We were talking about serious mechanical bits at the time and I didn't think to ask about the less significant parts mechanically. Not that those aren't important, they just wouldn't have been a factor in our getting the car back on the road.

That oil filter problem sounds more serious. Is there an aftermarket replacement? I mean you can't run the engine without an oil filter...:frown:

 

[Ben]

That oil filter problem sounds more serious. Is there an aftermarket replacement? I mean you can't run the engine without an oil filter...:frown:

The oil filter was superceded to the Legend Oil filter (15400-PL2-315) in 2007, then the Legend filter was superseded by the current cheaper US manufactured filter (15400-PL2-505) in I think 2008.

In independent teardown inspections, the original 15400-PL2-004 bests both the Legend filter, and the current one in every measurable way.

The teardowns and commentary of these filters and various aftermarket filters can be found on Page 2 and Page 3 of this thread.

http://www.nsxprime.com/forums/showthread.php?t=109700

The overall conclusion was that the original 15400-PL2-004 was best.

 

[simsgw]

The oil filter was superceded to the Legend Oil filter (15400-PL2-315) in 2007, then the Legend filter was superseded by the current cheaper US manufactured filter (15400-PL2-505) in I think 2008.
The overall conclusion was that the original 15400-PL2-004 was best.

Damn. Sorry to hear that, Ben. For all the NA1 owners.

Gary