CAR Magazine says no more NSX, S2000, Type-R's, etc.

[qirex]

i'm not knocking the X vs the M5. I was driving my neighbors 91 X over the weekend. Then i drove my buds 40th ann 911 and a M3conv I'm forced to drive until my bud returns my 350Z. The prob with the M3 (and i suspect the m5) is that they weigh too damn much. It hardly feels faster than the Z. The X otoh was the star of the day - even as a 91, with its engine howling behind your head.

Back to reality, i bet that an M5 will crush an NSX on a track. Honda obviously needs a way to garner more "mindshare" and thus marketshare. The easy way is HP. It worked for nissan - it should work for honda too. They really need to ditch the "no V8". PPl love v8s and big power. Nissan has shown this - they lead the low-end segment in HP. Then you turn to infiniti which has 310-340HP V8s. the M45 will be a HUGE seller to follow up the hot succes of the G35. Who knows how much the next Q will sport? at least 340HP! And what does honda give us? A 300HP V6. I'm sorry - but that is Sooooooooo 1992. Lexus was the runaway success of the three, infiniti is finally doing really well - but acura, where has thee gone acura?

If an NSX does turn up, it better have 400Hp if it wants to be sales success. As a car - i could care less, the 911S gets it done with 355, the nsx could also. Except now the nsx is playing "catch up". It really needs to be MUCH better than its competitors to stand a chance.

 

[jgtcnsx]

i dont belive it. honda is big in all racing forms. i dont think they would do that

 

[liftcontrol]

I am begining to feel that the CAR magazine may well be right.

Think about it. The Horsepower wars have gone out of control. The Corvette has a 400hp engine as a STANDARD and the ZO6 version may have up to 500 for less than 60K. The next M3 will have a monster V8 with well over 400 hp; the Mustang GT is about 300hp and the Cobra will be significantly more for less than 40K. Don't even talk about the Vipers and the Ferraris and the Porsche Turbos. Honda due to their inaction over the past dozen years or so have essentially played themselves out of the game. They would have to have a 400hp light NSX or NSX replacement JUST TO STAY COMPETETIVE! and to top it off they cannot price themselves out of the game again if they want to see some decent sales. How can they do this with production costs as high as they are in Japan?

They may indeed want to step back for a few years, do what Toyota has done with just plain old people haulers and make some money. Once they find themselves in a position to "splurge" some and in the meantime develop what they need to compete with the rest of the manufacturers in the HP races, they may step back in.

I feel that they were serious about the HSC concept but were ill prepared to deal with 500 hp corvettes at a reasonable price point. I would not be surprised to see Honda take a few years to become internally competent in a price/power game that they have already lost.

 

[NetViper]

I am begining to feel that the CAR magazine may well be right.
I feel that they were serious about the HSC concept but were ill prepared to deal with 500 hp corvettes at a reasonable price point. I would not be surprised to see Honda take a few years to become internally competent in a price/power game that they have already lost.

Why can't HONDA make a 500HP V8? Everyone else can. (ferrari, chevy, ford, lambo, etc.)

The Z06 motor weighs less than the 3.2 L NSX engine. Weight saving issues are BS IMO.

Are we saying that Honda doesn't have the brains to create a truly awesome powerplant? I refuse to believe it.

 

[Dr.Honda]

I agree with liftcontrol's assessment and have given up on the HSC. Now watch, there will be a new NSX about 1 month after I get my Elise. You guys can thank me when that happens.

 

[liftcontrol]

Why can't HONDA make a 500HP V8? Everyone else can. (ferrari, chevy, ford, lambo, etc.)
Are we saying that Honda doesn't have the brains to create a truly awesome powerplant? I refuse to believe it.

NetViper, I think HONDA engineers may have more brains than all of the others put together BUT I feel that Honda's corporate philosophy about hp and performance is different. It is not that they cannot but that they are not inclined to. I hope that their philosophy changes, for the sake of the enthusiasts, but for now that seems to me to be a hope and no more.

Consider, their highest output passenger car engine is currently in their latest generation RL, their flagship and it makes 300 hp and costs about 50K. Consider the probable cost of a 400 hp exotic machine like the HSC for instance....all carbon interior, exotic materials, exotic engineering and all that goes into making a Ferrari competitor if not even a Ferrari beater.

 

[NetViper]

Consider, their highest output passenger car engine is currently in their latest generation RL, their flagship and it makes 300 hp and costs about 50K. Consider the probable cost of a 400 hp exotic machine like the HSC for instance....all carbon interior, exotic materials, exotic engineering and all that goes into making a Ferrari competitor if not even a Ferrari beater.

But the RL is inline with its competition as far as HP goes. The NSX is now even less than the RL!

If the corvette can be sold for 45K with a 400HPV8 and weigh ~3200lbs, then I would think a next gen NSX could do roughly the same, without the need for exotic materials like CF etc.

To me the basic NSX design is still awesome. The only things that really make it lag behind the competition are the engine and the interior (lack of features). I do think it is sad that the RL sedan has more HP than their flagship exotic that costs 2x as much.

 

[Hugh]

Honda is first and foremost, a racing company. Honda wouldn't let down their hardcore fans like this.

Actually they are first and foremost a publicly traded company in the US and Japan. The stockholders are more important than racing fans.

 

[apapada]

Actually they are first and foremost a publicly traded company in the US and Japan. The stockholders are more important than racing fans.

doesn't work that way. Without their racing fans, Honda would have half its appeal to the consumers. Please realize what it means for Honda to be #2 in the F1 constructor championship with Toyota in 8th position, while Toyota has 4 times the engineering resources Honda has, and is like Goliath against little David (Honda) everywhere else. Getting out of racing, would only be very negative for Honda but for its investor too.

 

[qirex]

doesn't work that way. Without their racing fans, Honda would have half its appeal to the consumers. Please realize what it means for Honda to be #2 in the F1 constructor championship with Toyota in 8th position, while Toyota has 4 times the engineering resources Honda has, and is like Goliath against little David (Honda) everywhere else. Getting out of racing, would only be very negative for Honda but for its investor too.

I really think that you are confusing the issue of racing, consumers, stockholders and honda.

Ferrari is a racing company. They race all sorts of things and make sports cars.
Honda has been involved in racing for YEARS, but has only *recently* (i mean recent like the last 15 years) begun to allow many of their technologies to appear in their cars. They are first and foremost builders of cars for the masses (designed by accountants) Before the NSX there was no honda sports car. If you count the CRX, then you've already proven my point. Sure they make many "peppy", "sporty" cars, but face it barring the S2000 and 15 year old NSX, there is no sports car out there. Their ranks are polluted with FWD avera-mobiles.

I just wish that a company like honda with so MUCH, would give us more. I've been driving my friends M3 conv for the last week. Sure its a cool car and all, fast etc. However, when i got my Z back, I couldnt believe how GREAT a car that is for the money. This is almost bankrupt nissan we're talking about. Now, tell me why doesnt/cant honda make a Brawny Sports car for $30K, give you a ton of horsepower AND make a grip of money? The Z was the best-selling sports car last year and is track to do the same this year. So of course we'll see continued development of further models.

However in the case of the S2000 and NSX, they have languished on the sales floor. It doesnt matter how much you spend on racing, if you cant sell the cars. Honda seems to like small, low-power, high -revving engines. They need to take a page out of Mercedes book and realize that HP Sells!




/rant over/

 

[apapada]

I really think that you are confusing the issue of racing, consumers, stockholders and honda.

Sure thing kid, but I'm afraid there is only one of us who is confused here and that's not me. Case in point:

Ferrari is a racing company. They race all sorts of things and make sports cars.

whereas Honda is not ? Luca Montezemolo, president of Ferrari in the 1990s spoke of the similarities between Honda and Ferrari. He said 'Both founded by extraordinary individuals who loved motor racing and were committed to technical innovation'. But Luca Montezemolo was probably confused too...
Or maybe this also holds for other famous F1 celebrities when Honda won 23 Grands Prix, one drivers' world championship and two constructors' world championships with Williams. Frank Williams said that 'Honda brought a new approach to Formula One which was the acceptance only of excellence and technical supremacy'.
Honda moved to McLaren from 1988 to 1992 and won 44 more Grands Prix and the constructor's and driver's titles four years in a row, a run of success unprecedented in modern grand prix motor racing. Ron Dennis, Managing Director of McLaren International spoke about, 'the dedication and technical brilliance of the Honda engineers and mechanics' which even adversaries admired. Of course all the above people knew nothing about racing...

Honda has been involved in racing for YEARS, but has only *recently* (i mean recent like the last 15 years) begun to allow many of their technologies to appear in their cars.

Wrong again kid. Mr. Honda has been involved in racing since the 1920s and in 1936 made time which remained a Japanese race record for almost 20 years. Plus last time I checked, when Honda entered the F1 to have confirmed their status in Europe as a car maker through 10 years of competition and push forward engine technology for their own cars (advances they still enjoy today as the VTEC), it was 1982 or 22 years ago. But you probably only remember the last 15 since that's probably your age. FYI, Honda entered its first Grand Prix, alongside Ferrari, Mercedes-Benz, Lotus, Alfa Romeo, and Maserati, with a complete car in 1964, just one year after mass car production had started. In October 1965, after just 10 races, Honda won its first GP in Mexico with Richie Ginther at the wheel of the RA272.

They are first and foremost builders of cars for the masses (designed by accountants)

.
Really ?! that's probably why it took them so long to bring an SUV to the markets and that's probably why they were the first ones to launch commercially the first Hybrid car (the Insight). Are you sure you're not again confusing Honda with another japanese company starting with a "T" or a "N" ?

Before the NSX there was no honda sports car.

How many times can one be wrong in a single post ?!?! I think we have a new RECORD !!! Just as a gest to the HFTE (the Humanitarian Fund for Troll Education) before the NSX there were several true sports cars. The first one goes back as far as 1964 when the S600 was launched (March of 1964). You will probably argue that any car with an engine producing 57 hp at 8500 rpm and had a top speed of 90 mph is no sports car. But you wouldn't know better of course, nor the fact that this car's engine was a mere 600 c.c.'s under its hood (almost 100bhp/liter, see any pattern here?). Never mind that the 0-60 numbers would be laughable at a drag strip... this car was fun in the corners and huge fun to drive, the exact definition and essence of a true sports car, period!

I think I can rest my case on who is confused here...

 

[qirex]

pipe down little man...

Nice proof that honda is racing company.
Obviously, you cant read.

I said that only recently (15 years) has their racing technologies "filtered down" to the mainstream technology.

Again, you proved your own point...if you classify the s600 a sports car...enjoy your 100hp/L from 600cc.

To each their own. I'm in the market for a 997 or 97ish X. I'm just critical of manufacturers and want the best for my hard-earned buck. FWIW I give the p-cars crap for only serving up 355HP for my 90K - however, when I consider ppl as yourself, i think i shouldnt complain.

 

[NSX-Racer]

Again, you proved your own point...if you classify the s600 a sports car...enjoy your 100hp/L from 600cc.

You may not believe it but some S 600 and S 800 are still used as sportscars. Ever seen some on the racetrack? I did multiple times and they are freaking fast - they even beat me in corners and I'm not one of the slowest NSX drivers.

 

[apapada]

Again, you proved your own point...if you classify the s600 a sports car...enjoy your 100hp/L from 600cc.

Hey troll, I'm not the only who recognizes the s600 is a genuine sports car. How about for the entire racing community, vintage racing community, and pretty much anyone who really knows about the sport... is that enough for ya ?

To each their own. I'm in the market for a 997 or 97ish X. I'm just critical of manufacturers and want the best for my hard-earned buck. FWIW I give the p-cars crap for only serving up 355HP for my 90K - however, when I consider ppl as yourself, i think i shouldnt complain.

Obviously HP is all that matters to you. Stick to that 997, or even get a Corvette if you "want the best for your hard-earned buck". Maybe you'll even consider this graduating from your Z...

 

[apapada]

You may not believe it but some S 600 and S 800 are still used as sportscars. Ever seen some on the racetrack? I did multiple times and they are freaking fast - they even beat me in corners and I'm not one of the slowest NSX drivers.

dieser dumme Mann würde nicht den Unterschied zwischen einem S600 und einem Toaster kennen. Zu versuchen, dieses ihm zu erklären vergeudet unsere Zeit.

 

[MAKO]

I've never seen a car message board in such denial.

You guys are right and everyone else is wrong. Me, Automobile, CAR, Road and Track, and every other source familiar with both the economics and market factors that Honda finds themselves chained to, are just dead wrong. There will certainly be another hundred-million-dollar-per-year-losing car featuring the NSX badge. No question.

I mean $hit, why not? Money grows on trees in Japan according to you neophytes. It flows down every river and rains on every rooftop. Money Money Money. As long as you get your $100k NSX II, which 95% of the target market couldn't afford anyway, then it's all good right? lol.

Honda's management is trying to plot a course for survival against 5x larger juggernaut Toyota for the next 25 years, sweating ever detail because they're pressed into a corner that doesn't allow for a single mistake. Yet Primers are dreaming about a $100k Japanese sportscar that no one would in the States would buy over a 911, or an AMV8, or a future Lotus, or any other number of cars.

Perfect.

Thank god you guys aren't in charge of the company. I for one would like to see Honda continue to exist as I age, building great cars and trucks that guarantee their financial survival. Save the sportscars for Porsche, Ferrari and Lambo, thx.

 

[Aiken Drum]

Don't generalize. Those of us not in denial simply aren't posting.

 

[gheba_nsx]

MAKO, ok, since you know so well the topic, could you explain us why Honda is putting so much money into competition? Is VW doing this? Or Seat? Or ... whatever other car makers that is not interested in sports cars segment? No they do not.

I also think that a new NSX is a complete loss for Honda if priced above 70k$ and with less than 400hp (both condition have to be false to create a marketable Honda "super" sports cars, and it won't sell in big numbers anyway). As Honda managmenet would never produce it.

But the S2000, the RSX, the Civic Type R, the Accord Type R/S, ... I really do not think they will delete them all.

 

[nsx-tech]

honda will stop building the nsx after the 2005 model year. american honda wants a car to compete with the vette. honda japan wants one that competes with ferrai. american honda is honda japan's largest buyer. american honda killed the next generation nsx. nice move.

 

[Ponyboy]

Up yours too.

 

[nsx-tech]

be nice. thats who makes the call on that car.

 

[NetViper]

I have pretty much given up on the HSC. I would really like to see it, but at this point -- I just don't care anymore. Plus, If I have been waiting 15 years for car that will be trounced by a 50K vette, I would rather them just not bother.

I would rather focus on picking up a 97 NSX and making it perform like the supercars of today. ie. FI, suspension, etc.

 

[MAKO]

I have pretty much given up on the HSC. I would really like to see it, but at this point -- I just don't care anymore. Plus, If I have been waiting 15 years for car that will be trounced by a 50K vette, I would rather them just not bother.

Best, most coherent post in this whole thread by far. Nice Viper.

The HSC is dead.

The NSX II is dead.

Don't care about RSX, S2000, or other lightweights and their futures.

Life goes on. There's always FactorX as Viper pointed out.

And with Porsche, Lambo, Ferrari, Chevy and Ford ALL offering compelling sportscars with 450HP+ over the next 18 months, there's plenty of fish in the sea to choose from in a post-NSX world. Just got to save your pennies boys and girls, and the NSX will eventually be nothing more than a nostalgic/obsolete memory for you.

 

[MJK]

While I agree with the sentiment, my NSX isn't going anywhere. It appears whatever sits next to it in a couple years won't be from Honda though.

 

[PHOEN$X]

Just got to save your pennies boys and girls, and the NSX will eventually be nothing more than a nostalgic/obsolete memory for you.

If that's how you feel, why do you bother posting on here? Go back to your Ferrari forums and leave us to wallow in our "memories."