Colorado Shooting

[bigbadberry]

I just wish this story had the same ending as this one:

http://abcnews.go.com/US/florida-ma...-internet-cafe/story?id=16800859#.UAnMiqP2NIS

That's always good to see bad people getting their just desserts but let's stay away from the what ifs.

EDIT: http://articles.cnn.com/2009-05-29/...d-kelly-sergeant-and-two-officers?_s=PM:CRIME

I know it's dated but even the best intentions can go bad.

 

[Alittleboost]

Wrong. You have a hypothetical scenario. Do you actually believe that this type of mass murder can't or won't happen. Wake up. What is reality is that I have the ability to protect myself if I'm ever in a place where this is happening. You obviously don't have the same ability. You can either be the sheep or the Shepard. It's obvious which one I am and which one you are.

EDIT: I apologize to the other people who have posted on this thread. The main focus should be on those who were killed, injured, and the family and friends of the aforementioned.

I actually envy DocL, I live in Cali...it has the best activities but worst gun laws. I would just say this, if DocL had training and what ifs...at least he could suppress the gunman and communicate with officers who the suspect is.

If one guy shot back at the suspect with a ccw, his focused would have switch to 1 man instead of shooting fish in a barrel.

 

[bigbadberry]

I actually envy DocL, I live in Cali...it has the best activities but worst gun laws. I would just say this, if DocL had training and what ifs...at least he could suppress the gunman and communicate with officers who the suspect is.

If one guy shot back at the suspect with a ccw, his focused would have switch to 1 man instead of shooting fish in a barrel.

We cannot play the what if game.

What if DocL, with all respect, had shot at the suspect and shot someone in the dark accidentally who would of actually escaped unscathed? What ifs are not needed....

 

[Alittleboost]

We cannot play the what if game.

What if DocL, with all respect, had shot at the suspect and shot someone in the dark accidentally who would of actually escaped unscathed? What ifs are not needed....

Fine, I rather have one than not.

 

[bee_are_bee]

I just wish this story had the same ending as this one:

http://abcnews.go.com/US/florida-ma...-internet-cafe/story?id=16800859#.UAnMiqP2NIS

+1

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kennesaw,_Georgia

"In 1982 the city passed an ordinance [Sec 34-21][16]
(a) In order to provide for the emergency management of the city, and further in order to provide for and protect the safety, security and general welfare of the city and its inhabitants, every head of household residing in the city limits is required to maintain a firearm, together with ammunition therefore.
(b)Exempt from the effect of this section are those heads of households who suffer a physical or mental disability which would prohibit them from using such a firearm. Further exempt from the effect of this section are those heads of households who are paupers or who conscientiously oppose maintaining firearms as a result of beliefs or religious doctrine, or persons convicted of a felony.
Gun rights activist David Kopel has claimed that there is evidence that this gun law has reduced the incident rate of home burglaries citing that in the first year, home burglaries dropped from 65 before the ordinance, down to 26 in 1983, and to 11 in 1984.[17] Another report observed a noticeable reduction in burglary from 1981, the year before the ordinance was passed, to 1999.[18]
Later research claims that there is no evidence that [the law] reduced the rate of home burglaries [in Kennesaw][19][20], even though the overall crime rate had decreased by more than 50% between 1982 and 2005.[21]
The city's website[22] claims the city has the lowest crime rate in the county."

If anything, this shows that a more pervasive presence of guns DOES NOT automatically lead to increase in gun violence.

 

[bee_are_bee]

EDIT: http://articles.cnn.com/2009-05-29/...d-kelly-sergeant-and-two-officers?_s=PM:CRIME

I know it's dated but even the best intentions can go bad.

Not only is it dated it's also a non-sequitur.

 

[bigbadberry]

Not only is it dated it's also a non-sequitur.

It's a non-sequitur because it shows that even officials with guns make mistakes? Where as when everyone (trained and untrained) makes crime stop especially during chaotic moments ?

 

[scorp965]

EDIT: http://articles.cnn.com/2009-05-29/...d-kelly-sergeant-and-two-officers?_s=PM:CRIME

I know it's dated but even the best intentions can go bad.

Perhaps the greater evidence is the fact that you had to search back three years in order to find a single example which would fit your existing bias.

Also, it still doesn't fit, since the person identified as a threat to public safety was the one who the police officer shot, after they refused to lower their weapon. The circumstance is unfortunate, but not relevant to this discussion.

 

[bee_are_bee]

It's a non-sequitur because it shows that even officials with guns make mistakes? Where as when everyone (trained and untrained) makes crime stop especially during chaotic moments ?

It's a non-sequitur because the issue at hand is whether or not conceal carry would be an asset to a situation such as the shooting in Aurora or, by your assertion, a detriment. Showing human error in a completely different situation under different circumstances lends no value to this discourse. You say no need for "what ifs", yet you present a "what if" of your own in predicting armed citizens a possible detriment. Accidents happen, but what happened in Aurora was no accident. In all honesty, I'm sure a few here would agree, I'll take my chances at being armed and there being an "accident" than being a sitting duck, or worse, a dead duck. Nearly every year you see stories here and there of individuals with concealed or open carry staving off would be gun men, preventing a possible massacre. Every year you see people gunned down in "gun-free zones." By the way, this particular theater has a specific "no gun" policy (of course!!!). Guess someone forgot to inform Roger Ebert of this tidbit before he opened his mouth ...err his keyboard.

There are examples all over the country where gun ownership amongst citizens is high and gun crimes are concomitantly low. The cities with the highest rates of gun crimes and death by guns are usually cities with the strictest, most oppressive gun laws. Yet legally armed, law abiding citizens seem to be the issue?

 

[NetViper]

There are examples all over the country where gun ownership amongst citizens is high and gun crimes are concomitantly low. The cities with the highest rates of gun crimes and death by guns are usually cities with the strictest, most oppressive gun laws. Yet legally armed, law abiding citizens seem to be the issue?

Can u cite specific examples please.

 

[scorp965]

Can u cite specific examples please.

 

[bee_are_bee]

Can u cite specific examples please.

Real quickly; Chicago, Washington D.C, Los Angeles. Conversely. Kennesaw,Ga, the entire state of Maine just to name a few

 

[bigbadberry]

Real quickly; Chicago, Washington D.C, Los Angeles. Conversely. Kennesaw,Ga, the entire state of Maine just to name a few

Or places like the UK where gun controls are strict at the homicide rates are low http://chartsbin.com/view/1454

 

[bee_are_bee]

Or places like the UK where gun controls are strict at the homicide rates are low http://chartsbin.com/view/1454

I can counter that with Switzerland. Mexico has some of the toughest gun control laws out there. We all know the problems that country faces with gun violence. We can go at this all day. One detail about the UK is that while gun homicide rates are low the bans did NOT effect gun RELATED crimes. It is not merely gun related homicide we speak of it's gun related crime in general. It's predicted there are still hundreds of thousands of illegal guns in the UK.

An issue that needs addressing when raising laws and stats of other countries are the cultural implications, among other things. Take Japan, for instance. Some of the lowest homicide rates, strict gun laws.

Here are some important factors that contribute.
1) Japanese citizens are some of the most law abiding citizens in the world. Police are very esteemed and cooperation with them is much higher than us here in America. Even criminals obey the gun laws (something that will NEVER happen here).
2) Gun ownership is nearly zero. No gun ownership, no gun crime.
3) Japan is by-and-large a police state. There are much broader search and seizure powers essentially allowing police to search a person at will.
4) We have rights designed to protect us from a police state, no such thing exists in Japan.
5) No existence of gun culture in that never has Japan spawned the notion that gun were to be possessed by the ruled citizens.
6) Japanese government has effectively disarmed itself, contributing to a specific social climate.

So yes, gun control CAN correlate with low homicide rates and low gun crime if there are other significant cultural factors to accompany said bans. Which brings me back to Switzerland. The homicide rate in Switzerland is a few tenths per 100,000 higher than Japan. I think babies are born with guns in Switzerland. Want to know something interesting about those homicide rates in the UK?? While low now, they were even lower in 1900 when there were no such gun control laws. Go figure.....

 

[EdinKali]

All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing.

 

[NetViper]

Real quickly; Chicago, Washington D.C, Los Angeles. Conversely. Kennesaw,Ga, the entire state of Maine just to name a few

Naming a bunch cities means nothing. Show me the statistics.

 

[scorp965]

Naming a bunch cities means nothing. Show me the statistics.

"There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies and statistics." - Mark Twain

Without spending the time to trawl the Internet looking for data of a dubious nature, and then argue semantics regarding its application and validity, let's look at the real discussion:

This guy picked an area where signs were posted, clearly prohibiting firearms. He fired at people until he got bored, and then he calmly walked to his car to wait for police.

Criminals do not follow the law, and gun control measures are laws, which criminals ignore.

Would return fire have improved the situation, as it did last week in Florida?

 

[bigbadberry]

"

Would return fire have improved the situation, as it did last week in Florida?

Don't play the what if game, would return fire have ended in more people shot? Don't open that can.

 

[Tom239]

Would return fire have improved the situation, as it did last week in Florida?

I am not convinced that more people carrying weapons
in public gatherings is going to make things better overall.
Even well-meaning people exhibit bad judgment from time to time.

How many people would call for more guns if what
happened to Yoshihiro Hattori had happened to their child?

 

[shawn110975]

since its all over the news everytime it happens

the next one and there will be a next one the SCORE will get bigger and bigger. we live in a gamer world its all about score be immortal

so the next time it will be 100 injured etc.

I am sure the guy was counting everyone that fell down and played dead.

he counted and got his goal/score he wanted and waited for the news reporters to show up.

we need to stop brocasting it on every channel. the next shooter is thinking man I could have killed 200

they should have shot him on site. no jury no judge. onsite.
like that famous execution in Vietnam

this makes me sick

 

[rotorray]

 

[NetViper]

I think they would have had a much better chance of surviving if he attacked with a USB stick.

 

[scorp965]

I am not convinced that more people carrying weapons
in public gatherings is going to make things better overall.
Even well-meaning people exhibit bad judgment from time to time.

How many people would call for more guns if what
happened to Yoshihiro Hattori had happened to their child?

That's an example from twenty years ago, where a person shot a teenager who broke into their house - unless you're arguing against gun possession in general, I don't see how it applies.

I think the more-telling aspect here is the fact that people are digging through decades of stories trying to find something which fits, and they're doing so without success.

As anyone who has expressed interest in a CCW permit will attest, they're not easily acquired, typically require extensive training, and occasionally even the approval of local law enforcement. They can be revoked for something as (relatively) innocuous as a misdemeanor. To cruise around in public with a concealed firearm is not a permission given lightly, even with our current law set. To then tell these people they must leave their weapon in their car's glove-box seems ridiculous, especially in light of tragic events.

 

[steveny]

Huh? Better sources? Is CNN and ABC in your area not talking about how neighbors heard him listening to "techno with gunfire in the background" late at night really loud prior to the attacks? I have heard that several times over here and all the feeds running across the bottom of the screen have either a techno blame or a gun blame in it. Maybe you took it the wrong way. I am not blaming techno, in fact I love electronic music, I think it is ridiculous how people are so quick to jump and place blame on gun ownership or a type of music.
Gun control wont stop a desire to mass murder.

edit: now NBC has an article on how violent the new batman movie is ... so easy to place blame on other things rather than the shooter himself.

Only a sane person looks for blame in other things. No sane person wants to believe that a human can be this evil.

 

[bee_are_bee]

This guy picked an area where signs were posted, clearly prohibiting firearms. He fired at people until he got bored, and then he calmly walked to his car to wait for police.

Criminals do not follow the law, and gun control measures are laws, which criminals ignore.

Would return fire have improved the situation, as it did last week in Florida?

Yep, exactly. Aurora actually has strict gun laws including a concealed carry ban. Here's a list of Denver area city ordinances regarding firearms.

http://www.coloradoceasefire.org/munilaws.htm

Aurora
1. "Dangerous weapon" includes firearm
2. Revocation of license for furnishing a firearm to a minor or someone under the influence.
3. Window displays cannot include firearms with barrels less than 12 inches long.
4. Unlawful to carry concealed "dangerous weapon"
5. Unlawful to discharge firearms, unless by law enforcement on duty or on shooting range.
6. Unlawful to possess firearm while under the influence of intoxicant
7. Unlawful to have loaded firearm in motor vehicle.
8. Unlawful for a juvenile to possess a firearm.

A lot of good all of that did......