And that is why I've said all along there is a disconnect between the corporate execs and the end user. It seems like they want the car to fail.
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Dealers combing their dusty databases to try to move 2018 cars
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And that is why I've said all along there is a disconnect between the corporate execs and the end user. It seems like they want the car to fail.
I think RSO has laid bare the current state of play.
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Great points.
Minor input to #3 , I believe there was a time window where you could customer order a 2017 and get the $30K incentive.
Minor input to #3 , I believe there was a time window where you could customer order a 2017 and get the $30K incentive.
As someone who is on the receiving end of customers, there is a huge difference in the clients we see. There are those that know everything there is to know about the car and know the specs and the tech features and are very well informed on the current market.
The second customer we deal with is the new money guy. This guy typically knows little to nothing about the car or the current market but just landed a new client or huge deal and has the money burning a hole in his pocket. This guy falls in love with the experience and the ordering of his first supercar.
What this shows to me is that anyone who has never customer ordered or gone through this process before will be ecstatic. Anyone who has done this before feels the experience was lacking and is ultimately disappointed in the process. This means that should this car be sticking around, there are many refinements that need to be made to make the experience comparable to other manufactures in it's class. If we want to compete there we need to do it on all levels, from the ordering experience, to the delivery day, to the customer service for the years to come.
The second customer we deal with is the new money guy. This guy typically knows little to nothing about the car or the current market but just landed a new client or huge deal and has the money burning a hole in his pocket. This guy falls in love with the experience and the ordering of his first supercar.
What this shows to me is that anyone who has never customer ordered or gone through this process before will be ecstatic. Anyone who has done this before feels the experience was lacking and is ultimately disappointed in the process. This means that should this car be sticking around, there are many refinements that need to be made to make the experience comparable to other manufactures in it's class. If we want to compete there we need to do it on all levels, from the ordering experience, to the delivery day, to the customer service for the years to come.
I know how much Bob loves my other "super car", but let's just compare here. Ford, like Honda/Acura doesn't build halo, or supercars. They did build them in 05/06 and the dealers tried like the Acura dealers did in 1991 to rip off the consumer, by adding ridiculous amounts of AMDU to the car, and people still lined up to buy them, until they didn't. The financial crisis hit, in 07/08, and the Ford GT's that were still on the showroom floor weren't moving, and you could actually buy them for less than dealer invoice. It was a fantastic car, that brings far more than the MSRP, depending on options, condition and mileage (duh). The NSX has also moved up, not just the Zanardi. And yes, both of the NSXs and the GTs have softened a bit as of late. The new Ford GT, very different than the 05-06, like the new NSX, very different from the 1991-2005, has been marketed properly. No additional dealer markup allowed. You spec out the car with your concierge, you buy it a full MSRP, select the dealer that you want to deliver the car to you, and done. Yes there is a 2 year right of first refusal contract that you sign (John Cena tried to beat it, and lost!), only 250 cars per year, for 4 years, a total of 1,000 cars. You need to "apply", and deemed "worthy", and drive the car, to get it out there. People are still lining up to buy it, at roughly 1/2 million dollars, and look at Acura.........................
fastaussie
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much like Ferrari.
but Ford?! i'm still impressed by how well the Ford GT is received with it's V6 truck engine. as much shit as the NSX has (first gen) and still (2nd gen) gets about having a V6, no one seems too bothered with the GT's 6-cylinder. as an American, iconic 'V8 muscle' Supercar, i find it a bit bewildering. but as you said, people are lined up to throw down half a million all day. and then there's Acura, who seemingly can't give away "mini 918's"? :redface:
Sometimes the best way to get someone to want something is to tell them they can't have it.
You guys make some great points. I may hold off on the purchase of an R8 if I can get a good deal on a lease return. Except I still want to drive a manual transmission car!!! Decisions, decisions..
fastaussie
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so you're obviously talking about a first generation R8? that gated shifter and 4.2 V8 engine is pretty sweet, along with the rest of the car...
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I think a lot of the win for Ford comes from an american company actually building something special and being rewarded for it.
I give them a ton of credit for being brave and fast and for using a high performance iteration of the Ecoboost V6 (if you want to say truck motor, the better fitting reference would have been the motor in the 05-06 which I believe was used in the F150 Lightning truck).
I think Ford is way behind their target build rate so the customers have to hang in there.
They are doing a great job catering to customers and giving them a special experience.
They have been quite agile. For example the first year they offered a Competition package with cool exposed CF striping. Recent history has shown these track versions have higher valuations. The oops was this version had the A/C deleted. This year they offer a version called the lightweight which is basically the Competition with A/C and the radio. Watch for those cars to be the max value ones in the resales.
That program is bizarre to me in many ways.
It is actually a Canadian car.
The Raj guy credited for making it happen, gets disgraced and kicked out of Ford and he ends up at Multimatic where the cars are built.
The guys on the GT forums rip Cena for reselling his car and Mecum on auctioning one from a guy who was gravely ill but Mecum basically makes the market for collectible Fords.
I give them a ton of credit for being brave and fast and for using a high performance iteration of the Ecoboost V6 (if you want to say truck motor, the better fitting reference would have been the motor in the 05-06 which I believe was used in the F150 Lightning truck).
I think Ford is way behind their target build rate so the customers have to hang in there.
They are doing a great job catering to customers and giving them a special experience.
They have been quite agile. For example the first year they offered a Competition package with cool exposed CF striping. Recent history has shown these track versions have higher valuations. The oops was this version had the A/C deleted. This year they offer a version called the lightweight which is basically the Competition with A/C and the radio. Watch for those cars to be the max value ones in the resales.
That program is bizarre to me in many ways.
It is actually a Canadian car.
The Raj guy credited for making it happen, gets disgraced and kicked out of Ford and he ends up at Multimatic where the cars are built.
The guys on the GT forums rip Cena for reselling his car and Mecum on auctioning one from a guy who was gravely ill but Mecum basically makes the market for collectible Fords.
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Fastaussie, I'm actually searching for a Gen 2 (2014) with the facelift. Had a couple I was interested in but were purchased prior to being able to pull the trigger on them. Believe it or not, I'm only looking for a V10 manual as well. Test drove a V10+, (automatic though) and I must say it grew on me a little. Alas, the search continues. (And listing my car for sale which I hope I don't regret.)
fastaussie
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the 2014's have the new DCT tranny and are great machines. the V10 manual is a sick car, a huge upgrade from a 1st generation NSX. you're basically doubling the horsepower... :biggrin:
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HOT.
my friend just picked up a V10 RWS. oh the sounds coming from the V10.
my friend just picked up a V10 RWS. oh the sounds coming from the V10.
Jinks, Can you explain what you mean by "the car needs SOUL".....I hear this all the time form the F car Guys...and with no good explanation.
Bram
maybe he means it needs to break down every few months for no reason and require pushing off to the side to avoid blocking traffic when egear/f1 decides it doesn't like stop and go traffic and overheats?
fastaussie
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drive something Italian, and then drive something Japanese. you'll understand the difference rather quickly. German cars are more or less the same, a little too sterilized, over-engineered and characterless. relatively speaking.
it's the way different cultures express their emotions through their vehicles. motorcycles are much the same...
Oh I hope so too! Would love to see the 2G NSX at 100k or even lower in a few years...that much more attainable for me!
Honest question: so what exactly makes a car have "soul?" It seems hard to put into words. I doubt that Japanese or German designers/engineers are completely devoid of passion when they design their NSX/R8/etc. Whereas only italians have this "soul."
It seems a bit tenuous to characterize cars this way because it seems so subjective personally.
If a person drove a NSX and felt the soul of the car and he drove a 488 and felt no soul, is that person wrong in his opinion?
fastaussie
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i never said the NSX/R8 were completely devoid of passion, or that only Italian cars had soul. but Italian cars and motorcycles certainly have significantly more character and visceral appeal than their Japanese or German counterparts. case in point, drive the new R8 V10 Plus. ridiculously exceptional car, stupidly fast. it's an incredible machine. now drive the Lamborghini Huracan, which has the same exact drive train. it's like driving two completely different cars. the Lamborghini is much wilder, living up to the image conjured by the raging bull on the hood. the German car, much more controlled and well behaved. you'd never know these two vehicles were extremely close cousins. that's the difference between the Italian and German cultures. one is undoubtedly more exciting to drive, you already know which before you even open the door.
we all know how Honda/Acura/Toyota, i.e. the Japanese do things. very differently than the Italians. much safer, much more understated (generally speaking), less emotional, and typically underwhelming. start up a GTR or NSX. fire up any Ferrari. which of those three will have 99% of non-biased people more exhilarated merely sitting in the driver's seat at idle?
but don't take my word for it. drive the different brands yourself and make your own assessment...
Good points. The lambo philosophy is certainly going to be less conservative, it's wilder in that it's louder, more powerful, and feels less controllable (though with modern drivetrain management tech, it's probably way easier to control than lambos of yesteryear...and in a similar vein you can turn off alot of TCS in the Audi and get into trouble real quick...). The suspension likely tighter and more sporty giving it more feel and connection to the driver. And of course the much more ostentatious color and body styling. With these car components pushed to their limits, it is also no surprise their reliability is obviously much less (hence the post above about it breaking down).
The Japanese certainly are more conservative in that regard and certainly a different philosophy.
In my current financial situation and friendship circle, I am no where near to be able to experience any caliber of cars in the realm of the NSX/488/Huracan/R8/911 Turbo/570S/et. al....but certainly that is a life goal and I hope to achieve an experience, even if its a 1 day rental, sooner than later!
:smile:
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While I cannot speak for others, for me there was just something about it that didn’t make me tell myself I must have this car. The exhaust was a bit dull and the interior didn’t beg me to come back either. Although it was very comfy inside, I wasn’t wowed. For me personally, I think seats in an M4 are leaps and bounds better than the Nsx for half the price. It’s a fast car and handles very well and is also easy for anyone to jump in it and drive it close to what a good driver could drive it. When I drove my first gen 1, it was almost impossible not to write the seller a check.:biggrin: I think Honda just needs to make a few changes here and there and the car would be well sorted to more buyers.
Second gen NSX is a Joke, reason they are not selling, because they are over priced. Here in Toronto Canada, they dealers are giving you 65's Canadian off the price of the car as soon as you walk in, and still the car sits.
At the end of the day no one in there right mind would drop 200k for an Acura. At that level people start to think about the badge value. Anywhere you go you will have to explain to people about the NSX. No explaining has to be given when you have the V-10 R8, or the Ferrari 458 Italia, or a Porsche GT3.
Also Honda miss the mark completely with the new Nsx. The car should of been rwd, without the hybrid tech, made in Japan, and only 100k US MAX.
At the end of the day no one in there right mind would drop 200k for an Acura. At that level people start to think about the badge value. Anywhere you go you will have to explain to people about the NSX. No explaining has to be given when you have the V-10 R8, or the Ferrari 458 Italia, or a Porsche GT3.
Also Honda miss the mark completely with the new Nsx. The car should of been rwd, without the hybrid tech, made in Japan, and only 100k US MAX.
I think they pretty much nailed what they wanted to achieve in the everyday supercar market. The problem though is that 200,000 dollar cars are not everyday cars for a DD to begin with. The gen 2 is worlds better than the gen 1 but it doesn’t seem to have the nostalgia
i have driven Lots of Italian cars, and, in this day and age compromises are not something I would put-up with, be it, Driving position, ergonomics, Proper Engineering maintenance and reliability.
Some Italian cars do look great, but it the Sounds, that others can't seem to master like the Italian .....
Bram
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