Deck strength for High HP

[RacerX-21]

I was going to sleeve the block with a part that bridges the gap at the deck, but the existing sleeves are for 3.0 engines not for the 3.2. I have also seen an aluminum insert that can be machined and pressed in the deck, but I cant seem to find that source.

If anyone can help me with finding either of these parts, I would appreciate it.

Otherwise, because of time I will have to duplicate the effort and have it made myself.

Thanks for any help

Rob

Oh, I have billet mains for a 3.2 if anyone needs them. $500 good to 1200+ hp (Yes… I know this for a fact) and the mains are the weakest link.

 

[Elite]

Have you tried to talk to Darton directly. As far as i know they do a lot of one-offs. They might give you a deal if you give your block as a donar for their first one. Then they would duplicate it and make lots of money off of you!LOL. Mo - Elite

 

[Black&Tan97Tnewportbeach]

Hey Racer;

Interestingly, you seem to have reached a similar pioneering phase of modification on the 3.2 as some others. I have a 3.2 and have spoke to Gerry Johnson about doing the sleeves etc. The main point seems to be that in order to sleeve the 3.2 block the existing cylinders need to be bored and being that they are FRM nobody has tried it, with the exception of Hendrix Machine & Tool who did that front engine dragster for Adam S. I called them and they said they did a semi-sleeve where only the rings travel in the sleeve and the piston skirt is coated with something special since it still travels in the FRM.

On a related topic, have you converted to a drive by cable on your 3.2? We are about to try it here pretty soon, I am buying a throttle body in the next few days from a 3.0 , the idea being that the only function a standalone can't perform is the drive by wire control.

And lastly, PM me about the mains, I may wish to buy them for "someday". Thanks;

Chris Wolf

 

[sjs]

... I called them and they said they did a semi-sleeve where only the rings travel in the sleeve and the piston skirt is coated with something special since it still travels in the FRM...

Huh? I think they need to draw us a picture. From the top ring to the bottom of the skirt is just over 2 inches, and from the top ring to the bottom ring less than 1/2 inch. With a 3.06 inch stroke, the skirt and rings travel along the same section of cylinder wall most of the time. Must have lost something in the translation.

 

[Black&Tan97Tnewportbeach]

Sorry, I will try to explain it as I understood it from the phone conversation, hopefully a little better this time.

It seemed to me Hendrix meant they bored from the top of the cylinder down, but not all the way, only as far as the bottom ring would travel at the bottom of the stroke. He also said they COMPLETELY worked the shit out of the block, with special reinforced everything, a lot of the terminology I wasn't familiar with. Of course this is for a 1/4 mile only car, not just an amazing street\strip mobile.

 

[RacerX-21]

I have been in contact with Darton, they would be glad to pioneer the 3.2 for $2400 and 6 to 8 weeks, they also would want the engine shipped in a wooden crate (Via Truck). I made some assumptions when planning this engine; one of them was that the sleeves already existed.

The Darton engineer did take the time to describe how to do it, and the fact that you would have too cut past the water to determine the outer diameters of the 3-step sleeve necessary to do this right in the NSX.

My main problem is time- I cant loose that much time just for the sleeves, and still have the time for testing before my big race.

David E-mailed me about a Comptech insert they machine in and weld, I will call them today to see if they will sell the part so I can do it locally.

 

[sjs]

Last time I talked to Comptech on this issue (~6 months back) they pretty much talked me out of it as something with lots of risk. They weren't even real happy with doing a 3.0, stating quite bluntly that there have been problems with water leaking past the bottom of the liners. They would do it, but "buyer beware". Perhaps a lot has changed for them since then but I decided to look elsewhere.

 

[RacerX-21]

I talked too Comptech (someone in the machining department), he said he has done a few of them… with no problem “that he knows of”. He then mentioned the word sleeve, so I re-described the part I was talking about. He then said, “Yeah we tried different versions”.

I asked if they would sell the part, so I could install it locally. He told me no the average machine shop wasn’t capable of this operation. But if I sent my engine, he would do it in only 8 weeks for $2400.

It seemed odd that they have only done a few with no problems, and changes were necessary. I can obviously think of scenarios where this guy was legit, but you just know by reaction and rhetoric when someone is full of it.

He was very condescending and obviously didn’t need the business, I can understand why the only people I personally know who used them… no longer use them.

 

[Ryanmcd2]

If this was something for a Rx-7 I could tell you who to call, I am in Atlanta as well. Try Jim Downing at Downing Atlanta. He fabs a lot of stuff and maybe able to help you with it. I know there is someone here who can do it.

 

[RacerX-21]

That name sounds really familiar, is he from the shop that makes the Hans device? Or Robinson Racing?

Lamar Walden will do it; I just didn’t want to re-invent the wheel (For time and money reasons)

 

[Ryanmcd2]

Ya, he did the Hans and build a few of the 747 or something like that 3 rotors to race in lamans. Give him a call he does some high end stuff and know some really good people. It could not hurt. Also what about Panos? Call them they maybe able to help.

 

[sjs]

They may offer a good referral, but I'd only go to someone with considerable prior experience doing aluminum block piston engine. Downing & team have been masters of rotor motor racing for many years but those are very different beasts. Find Gerry Johnson and see who he uses on 3.0s.

Keep in mind that besides installing sleeves they will then need to align bore the mains at a minimum. If they don't know that much, move on.

 

[RacerX-21]

I have evaluated all of my options, and heard many descriptions of experience and caution.
… Insert plates varying in thickness (Some problems)
Welding (Some problems)
Water hole variations (Some problems)
Half sleeves for the rings only (Less Engineering, but for drag racing only)
Hard Block (Drag Racing only)
Full sleeves (Not yet Engineered) (Potential water problems)
Full sleeve with O-rings to seal water
Port Epoxy to add strength (Ok but not as good)

If time and money were not an issue I would have Darton design and install the suggested three step/diameter full sleeve with an O-ring for water.
But for now I have a solution that isn’t mentioned above… I think its genius, but only testing will tell.

I’m going to mill flat bottom holes that are just larger then the gap between the sleeve and the deck; I will then install loose press fit dowels to transfer the energy to the deck. I think (8) dowels per bank will be good, but I’m contemplating having (2) on the thrust side.

Besides the fact that this will be easier to machine, this design wont have a problem with water flow. It will also allow a small amount of expansion.

I will let you know if it works as good as it does on paper.

Oh, just a theory- those of you having head gasket/water problems are likely experiencing failure from slight sleeve movement due to detonation (Not boost as many think, the boost just promote detonation). I think the stock gasket is good if you don’t have detonation, and will be better when the sleeve is stabilized.

 

[sjs]

A couple comments:

The water problems I have mentioned are related to the bottom of the sleeves, not up at the head gasket. At least that's what the guy at CT described to me.

I had considered something similar, using individual tabs welded in rather than a full plate as typically done, but I was concerned that they may not distribute the loads evenly and lead to other problems. Dowels would have even smaller contact points transmitting the load. It may not be any problem at all, but I’m not qualified to guess and couldn’t find someone who was.

I think you only really need to brace the very top because that’s where all the action is. I don’t think the thrust side is the issue. So long dowels would not seem beneficial and would disrupt water flow around the jackets. Again, I’m mostly speculating based on other engines and related knowledge.

 

[true]

NSX Off-topic, but still relating to deck strength -- Closed deck and sleeving has been mentioned many times with little or no explanation on this board. I'll try to illustrate this for someone who is wondering what the heck we are talking about since I just completed this on my project car.

The OEM blocks have a free-floating cylinder setup as pictured below:
<img src=http://www.boosted.org/images/stage3/rebuild/clean.jpg>

You may have heard the OEM blocks have water jackets around the cylinder..and you can clearly see the coolant (green) insulates outside the cylinders.

Below is a picture of what a Darton closed deck sleeve itself looks like:
<img src=http://boosted.org/images/sleeve1.jpg>

Below is a picture of an OEM block being machined so the drop in closed deck sleeves can be pressed in.
<img src=http://boosted.org/images/sleeve3.jpg>

This picture has one of the sleeves installed....
<img src=http://boosted.org/images/sleeve2.jpg>

One of the problems people run into with high boost honda/acura engines is cylinder sway and distortion under huge amounts of boost. These free floating cylinders are designed to expand independently from the head etc.. By the time the sleeve install is complete its basically a solid deck as most (maybe all?) OEM turbo blocks come.
<img src=http://www.boosted.org/images/final_build/Cleaning_up.jpg>

Hopefully this will paint a better picture for someone who hasn't seen it before.

EDIT: Racer, they have been modifying honda 4 cylinder blocks for a while as you are showing if you are referring to spacing cylinder pins running all the way down the outside of the sleeve machined in the water jacket

 

[Black&Tan97Tnewportbeach]

Nice one True! It's great to see someone 'go the extra mile' for the education of others.

 

[sjs]

Exceptional job True, that very clearly illustrates the Darton sleeve approach.

BTW, it appears that the passages up into the head are just evenly spaced around the bore. Is that consistent with the openings in the head? Do you have a pic of the head surface?

Also, do you plan to run a higher volume water pump or are the stock ones for that engine considered adequate?

 

[sjs]

True, it looks like you might be pushing a little extra bore with the new sleeves. Yes?

 

[Gerry Johnson]

You can also view the NSX block with the Darton Pro sleevesand all the other goodies that go into a solid foundation for making high boosted power. www.pansx.com

The stock block coming apart.

The sleeves before the install

the finished block ready to make some real power.

 

[nsxxtreme]

Gerry did you have to drill your own water jacket holes? What do Darton sleeves cost for the NSX? Just the sleeves without installation.

 

[true]

True, it looks like you might be pushing a little extra bore with the new sleeves. Yes?

Yes. Stock bore is 81mm and I'm using 84.5mm slugs. The engine is now effectivly 2.0l (1996cc)

Here is a picture of the bottom of the head compared to the block. The shape is not the same, but the holes are spaced properly in the head....

<img src=http://www.boosted.org/images/final_build/head.jpg>
<img src=http://www.boosted.org/images/final_build/Cleaning_up.jpg>

The B series Honda engine use a tripple layered metal headgasket and the middle layer reshapes some of the coolant gallies in the gasket from the oblong shape to the circle as pictured here:
<img src=http://www.boosted.org/images/final_build/head_gasket.jpg>

 

[RacerX-21]

Nice job on the explanation!

I do want to reiterate for everyone that Darton does not yet have a variation for the 3.2... only the 3.0, and that the 3.2 version will need a (3) step design as compaired to the (2) step design shown in the pictures.

 

[Gerry Johnson]

Gerry did you have to drill your own water jacket holes? What do Darton sleeves cost for the NSX? Just the sleeves without installation.

The sleeves are made special with the specs that I have supplied to Darton, they are not an item that is available to the public, Darton is very proud of thier sleeves and get $150.00 each for them plus another $15.00 each for packaging them so total cost with shipping is $165.00 each. If I order 50 sleeves or more they offered me a 3% discount.

 

[ub2slw]

I've got a 3.0 high mileage NSX with a BBSC being installed. I'd like to rebuild the engine before blowing it....Can I call darton and get the same sleeves? Can i get them from you??? What pistons should be used?

The sleeves are made special with the specs that I have supplied to Darton, they are not an item that is available to the public, Darton is very proud of thier sleeves and get $150.00 each for them plus another $15.00 each for packaging them so total cost with shipping is $165.00 each. If I order 50 sleeves or more they offered me a 3% discount.

 

[RacerX-21]

Here are some pic's of the deck mod I mentioned.