Aside from the fact the car will likely be driven harder, does the principle behind supercharging cause accelerated engine wear?
97-T #009 @ 28K
97-T #009 @ 28K
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Do SC's Cause Pre-Mature Engine Wear
- Thread starter NSX4U2
- Start date
That's a good question.
Who cares! If you got $10K to modify it, whats another 5-7K for rebuilding or replacing broken parts!?!
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91 Red/Ivory #2061
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91 Red/Ivory #2061
What did your neighbor with the same zip code say ....... /
I think you answered your own question
Originally posted by Hrant:
What did your neighbor with the same zip code say ....... /
Honestly, I never thought to ask.
Yellow Rose
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Absolutely!!! Added boost = added combustion pressure = added force on the pistons / rings = added force on the bearings = added force on the crankshaft bearing cap bolts = added force to the block the bolts are screwed into.
Now the real question becomes, which I doubt anyone can accurately quantify is, "How much sooner (if at all) will my engine actually cough up a hairball because of forced induction?" I may not know the exact answer, but I have a pretty good idea. BTDT
[This message has been edited by AndyVecsey (edited 25 August 2002).]
Originally posted by AndyVecsey:
Absolutely!!! Added boost = added combustion pressure = added force on the pistons / rings = added force on the bearings = added force on the crankshaft bearing cap bolts = added force to the block the bolts are screwed into.
Now the real question becomes, which I doubt anyone can accurately quantify is, "How much sooner (if at all) will my engine actually cough up a hairball because of forced induction?" I may not know the exact answer, but I have a pretty good idea. BTDT
[This message has been edited by AndyVecsey (edited 25 August 2002).]
If this is the case, it must be minimal. I say this because several automobile manufactures use turbos in their 4 cylinder engines.
Would you agree?
No. Some of those turbos have a historical record of problems...
Hopefully the 4-cylinders with turbos have been designed with the additional combustion pressures in mind. You would hope that an engine sold OEM with forced induction has the necessary engineering headroom to accomodate the stresses imposed by the design. But this is not always the case, i.e. the late 80s Mustang SVOs with turbo 4-bangers. Don't see many of those around anymore.
OK, but let's put into perspective.
I know of NA motors still going strong at 250k+ miles. Actually, I am unaware of *any* stock motor dying from old age that never had NOS or forced induction. So, if lets say for arguments sake, 300,000 miles is the life expectancy of a stock NA motor, Id be happy with half that lifespan i.e. 150,000 miles while running 2x the H.P. !
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All My NSX'es Live in Texas
[This message has been edited by NSXTC (edited 25 August 2002).]
I know of NA motors still going strong at 250k+ miles. Actually, I am unaware of *any* stock motor dying from old age that never had NOS or forced induction. So, if lets say for arguments sake, 300,000 miles is the life expectancy of a stock NA motor, Id be happy with half that lifespan i.e. 150,000 miles while running 2x the H.P. !
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All My NSX'es Live in Texas
[This message has been edited by NSXTC (edited 25 August 2002).]
A Forced inductions Device puts stain on seals and rings...
I would recommend stronger rods, crank bearings, new piston heads, and if you can find one a forced injection cams....
if you can upgrade your valvetrains and get your ports port/polished then get your intake manifold channels honed and polished then see if you can accually get a aftermarket exhaust manifolds...
man i love the nsx
more like nSEX!
I would recommend stronger rods, crank bearings, new piston heads, and if you can find one a forced injection cams....
if you can upgrade your valvetrains and get your ports port/polished then get your intake manifold channels honed and polished then see if you can accually get a aftermarket exhaust manifolds...
man i love the nsx
more like nSEX!
Most of the issues brought up thus far are not a concern when adding low boost such as the standard CTSC, BBSC, turbos etc. Some aren't even an issue with higher boost.
For low boost engines (those not requiring block strengthening), the difference should be minimal if correct fuel mixture is maintained and detonation never occurs. Although there is added force on many parts, most of them aren't failure points on high mileage engines. Things that wear out on engines due to age are rings & cylinder walls, valve seals, guides, & valve seats. The added force of more HP might have an impact on rod bearings and to a lesser degree crank bearings, but I'd wager it would be minimal and they will still last well over 100k. Rings & cylinders are the most likely to suffer because they are the highest wear item in the engine, and the most vulnerable. Not because of added forces, but because forced induction generally means running richer mixtures, and that could reduce the lubrication of the cylinders especially if combustion isn’t clean and complete. If you have problems and run way rich it can trash them fast, but even with everything dialed in correctly there may be an increase in the rate of wear. I think valve guides and seals are less of an issue directly, but they too are vulnerable to added wear if combustion is not clean. Rings, guides and seals will all show their age sooner due to higher combustion chamber pressures, so you may see things like blow-by and oil usage in the boosted engine sooner than an NA version with identical wear. Valve seats might see a bit more wear, but I’m not sure how significant. One factor not mentioned is heat. Although your engine temp gauge reads the same, you are burning significantly more fuel per compression stroke, so may be subjecting rings, guides, seals etc. to more heat. I say “may” because running richer tends to mitigate that somewhat. But according to my EGT sensor, it gets pretty darn hot in there! Other than that, most things should be fine for well into six figures.
Obviously if you go to higher boost then you need a reinforced block, forged pistons, better head gaskets, and probably stronger head bolts, but then those too are good for a long time.
For low boost engines (those not requiring block strengthening), the difference should be minimal if correct fuel mixture is maintained and detonation never occurs. Although there is added force on many parts, most of them aren't failure points on high mileage engines. Things that wear out on engines due to age are rings & cylinder walls, valve seals, guides, & valve seats. The added force of more HP might have an impact on rod bearings and to a lesser degree crank bearings, but I'd wager it would be minimal and they will still last well over 100k. Rings & cylinders are the most likely to suffer because they are the highest wear item in the engine, and the most vulnerable. Not because of added forces, but because forced induction generally means running richer mixtures, and that could reduce the lubrication of the cylinders especially if combustion isn’t clean and complete. If you have problems and run way rich it can trash them fast, but even with everything dialed in correctly there may be an increase in the rate of wear. I think valve guides and seals are less of an issue directly, but they too are vulnerable to added wear if combustion is not clean. Rings, guides and seals will all show their age sooner due to higher combustion chamber pressures, so you may see things like blow-by and oil usage in the boosted engine sooner than an NA version with identical wear. Valve seats might see a bit more wear, but I’m not sure how significant. One factor not mentioned is heat. Although your engine temp gauge reads the same, you are burning significantly more fuel per compression stroke, so may be subjecting rings, guides, seals etc. to more heat. I say “may” because running richer tends to mitigate that somewhat. But according to my EGT sensor, it gets pretty darn hot in there! Other than that, most things should be fine for well into six figures.
Obviously if you go to higher boost then you need a reinforced block, forged pistons, better head gaskets, and probably stronger head bolts, but then those too are good for a long time.
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Also keep in mind that it makes much more difference HOW YOU DRIVE than whether or not your car has forced induction installed.
You can drive a forced induction car coast to coast at cruising speed in top gear and never get on the boost. This produces no more wear than if it was stock.
Or you can put 300 track miles on a NA car at or near redline and probably wear the engine as much (or more) than the coast-to-coast trip which was 10 times as long.
You can drive a forced induction car coast to coast at cruising speed in top gear and never get on the boost. This produces no more wear than if it was stock.
Or you can put 300 track miles on a NA car at or near redline and probably wear the engine as much (or more) than the coast-to-coast trip which was 10 times as long.
What is Forced Injection cams? Same as Motec exhaust? I'm not a forced Induction guy, so this kind of things is new to me.
[This message has been edited by Andrie Hartanto (edited 26 August 2002).]
Yellow Rose
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If this is the case, it must be minimal. I say this because several automobile manufactures use turbos in their 4 cylinder engines.
Would you agree?
Yes, no, maybe. Your original post implies that the question was targeted at the NSX engine. The manufacturers you are thinking of, designed their engines with forced induction in mind. The NSX engine as it comes from Japan is based on natural aspiration. Adding boost to an engine not prepped for it, MAY cause problems. However, as Lud and sjs correctly point out, adding a SC does not promise failure. Or does it?
Would you agree?
Yes, no, maybe. Your original post implies that the question was targeted at the NSX engine. The manufacturers you are thinking of, designed their engines with forced induction in mind. The NSX engine as it comes from Japan is based on natural aspiration. Adding boost to an engine not prepped for it, MAY cause problems. However, as Lud and sjs correctly point out, adding a SC does not promise failure. Or does it?
Andrie, I think he meant "forced induction cams" and not forced "injection" cams. Aftermarket cams can be made to take advantage of the extra air/power and or change the characteristics of the motor.
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www.acrmotorsports.com / 949-929-8973
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www.acrmotorsports.com / 949-929-8973
The NSX rods, although made of titanium, could actually be much stronger. The advance in metallurgical technology has advanced a great deal in 12 years since the introduction of the NSX, and titanium is no longer the end all material to use. That said, I would put the rods towards the bottom of the list of things to do for a normal forced induction application, unless you are running very high boost 15psi+.
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www.acrmotorsports.com / 949-929-8973
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www.acrmotorsports.com / 949-929-8973
It was mentioned in this series of posts, that driving the car hard WITHOUT forced induction is likely more damaging to the engine than WITH forced induction.
I prefer the later.
Is there a baseline (i.e with vs. without) for those who have re-built motors?
I prefer the later.
Is there a baseline (i.e with vs. without) for those who have re-built motors?
No, that's NOT what was said. What was said was that driving the car HARD WITHOUT forced induction is likely more damaging than CRUISING AT HIGHWAY SPEEDS WITH forced induction.
accually i was talking about a Supercharger or turbo profile cam.....
i don't own a nsx.. damn titainum rods? damn HONDA OWNZ U!
I have a 99 hatchback and a 96 hatch both project cars.. im working on getting the b18c swap.. planning to build the block myself..
new rods, sleaves,pistons heads, skunk2 turbo profile cam, p&p head, new titainum valvetrain, new ign., hondata ecm, apex-i vtec controler, and piggyback fuel controler.... more more more...
right now im working on sanding it down and working on the body( no probs, just need new color) electron blue pearl, also working on the suspension...
upper and lower and front and back sturt tower bars, lower brace, lower control arms, koni adjustable shocks, ebiach springs, z10 enginerring lower subframe brace/radius arms, and and a 6 pt roll cage fia approved and somethign that meets scca track specs.
yes the car is entering a non-oem class..
im going to be next to 911's, camaros, and supraz! hee hee i can't wait!
i don't own a nsx.. damn titainum rods? damn HONDA OWNZ U!
I have a 99 hatchback and a 96 hatch both project cars.. im working on getting the b18c swap.. planning to build the block myself..
new rods, sleaves,pistons heads, skunk2 turbo profile cam, p&p head, new titainum valvetrain, new ign., hondata ecm, apex-i vtec controler, and piggyback fuel controler.... more more more...
right now im working on sanding it down and working on the body( no probs, just need new color) electron blue pearl, also working on the suspension...
upper and lower and front and back sturt tower bars, lower brace, lower control arms, koni adjustable shocks, ebiach springs, z10 enginerring lower subframe brace/radius arms, and and a 6 pt roll cage fia approved and somethign that meets scca track specs.
yes the car is entering a non-oem class..
im going to be next to 911's, camaros, and supraz! hee hee i can't wait!
You know, Civic_Hatch99, if you didn't spend money on modding your Civic, and instead saved it towards buying an NSX one day, that day might be a lot closer than it is right now...
i was about to say the same... the cost of the work he is talking about is a good percentage of the cost of a used NSX. stock NSX or hopped up civic, gee, let me think..........
I wouldn't mind stains on those parts, as I never see them.
