I'll start off by saying your last comment made me chuckle.
I'll point out that you are arguing with two practicing doctors. In fact, you called docjohn's argument "stupid," and told me to go back to my LASIK practice.
Yes, his comparison of Ebola to Dengue was outright stupid. That's axiomatic. He didn't even bother to look up what Dengue fever is, or its death rate or effects. How many times do I have to reiterate this fact? No, I did not tell you to go back to your LASIK practice. Bringing up LASIK/Podiatry/Etc. was to refute the implication that you are qualified to speak on the subject simply because you are a "doctor," whatever that may be. Lot's of D.O.s call themselves doctors, as do dentists and optometrists. It's really more self-laudatory than anything else. Your being a doctor does not credit the argument that Influenza/Dengue are comparable to Ebola. They are not. End of story.
I've only got 15 years of experience in the ICU taking care of patients with practically every infectious agent we normally see in the USA, so perhaps I don't meet your required level of expertise. I don't know what docjohn's area is, or his experience level. I haven't authored any Ebola papers, but i'll wager you haven't either. And since you keep avoiding the request for your "credentials" all i can think is you either don't have any to speak of, beyond an ability to read yahoo news, or I don't have the required Delta Level 12 NSA clearance required to know that you are on the leading edge of the Elite Ebola Containment Team. Ok, enough with the facetious stuff... onward we go...
I'm published in Nature, thanks. I never tried to use my own credentials to try to bolster my argument like you did, and the only reason why I haven't addressed you yet thus far is because I do believe in maintaining a modicum of privacy online and don't feel the need to post my resume just as a rebuttal to some rhetoric.
The difference between my viewpoint and the majority of the uneducated public probably includes thinking outside the box. Most people seem to see on the news "up to 90 percent fatality" and see guys in moon suits running around... and immediately start yelling about armageddon. HIV was the same way. Except the fatality rate was 99 percent. You are talking about ebola jumping continents, and inferring by tone and grammar that it did it due to some new variation or evolution of the virus. Perhaps you didn't mean it that way, but that's the inference. We both know it moved because someone made a calculated risk and allowed an infected person to come over. Not the best maneuver, but those decisions are made above our pay grade, so...
No. Just no. Unwarranted assumption
1. I realize the ebola and influenza are not related, genomically. The reason it's brought up is to illustrate that other devastating diseases with higher infectious rates, over deaths, and levels of transmission are around and have not garnered the attention or hysteria being brought on by Ebola. Which is more concerning overall? Something that is very transmissible with a relatively low death rate (but kills more people overall), or something less likely to spread with a higher fatality incidence? I guess that one is a personal preference type of thing.
You should stop and think about what you are saying. You are saying that Influenza deserves more attention than Ebola currently, despite the fact that we have effective vaccines, and that we've been able to manage Influenza fairly well for healthy adults for centuries. Really. You just need to stop. You made a BAD analogy, and you just won't accept you were wrong. You are comparing the flu to Ebola. You are axiomatically wrong.
You mentioned it doesn't justify reducing reason
able caution with Ebola. All your saying there is that you agree with me. Thanks for that. Glad to see you'll agree with someone who doesn't practice real medicine by your definition.
Regarding my next ridiculous argument, where I think fallacious is overused, and you point out I used it 4 times vs. your using it twice..
Ok, apparently your ability to sense sarcasm is broken. I even stated, in the intro to my post, that i would use that word as much as possible. I can't believe you are making a point of saying "Well, you used it twice as much as me!!" You're forgetting your audience. This is a CAR FORUM. I'll admit the reduction in apparent intelligence in posts is irritating as people use grammar and spelling worse than any 8 year old, but not many people go onto a car forum and want to read posts that come off as pretentious, which is how you do when you purposely try to make yourself sound more important by inserting words like that. Yes, you sound educated. Great. I'm glad you don't dumb down your posts like most of America.
My next logical misstep, making note of overall deaths... I don't know if you're purposely focusing on the high death rate with ebola, and ignoring all other factors, or you really believe that any infectious agent that has a high death rate is worse than something that is in the top ten for US deaths. CJ Disease has an effective kill rate of 100% and is infectious. No one really knows how its transmitted. But the rate of transmission is low enough and the cases are rare enough it doesn't make headlines (anymore). What DocJohn pointed out specifically, as did I, is that there are other factors to consider. Fatal? Yes. Scary? Sure. Do i want it? No. But unless it's as transmissible as the media is making it sound (it isn't), then it is unlikely to become a huge issue. Consider the countries of origin. Poor central government control, poor medical care. Minimal precautions. But I'll wager they still own cars and fly planes around their own countries. If the fatality rate is as high as it is, how is it that 80-90% of the countries haven't been wiped out already? Ebola certainly isn't new over there. That should tell any reasonable person, even someone not in medicine, that the rate of transmission isn't that high. When you add to that discussion the centralized stable infrastructure, improved medical care and use of technology in the developed world.. your chances of having an epidemic are decreased further.
Again, stop comparing diseases to lesson the severity of the current outbreak. If CJD were undergoing the LARGEST OUTBREAK IN ITS ENTIRE HISTORY ON THIS PLANET, then by all means, give it all the news time it deserves, especially when cases are projected to reach 1 MILLION + cases by the CDC in 2014-2015. [YES, THOSE ARE EBOLA'S NUMBERS] Let's take a look at CJD: 1/1million. Usually affects the old (60+) and only 300 cases annually in the US, and it is NOT transmitted by casual contact (usually hereditary, sporadic, or through medical procedures). I won't even address your rhetorical question about how "why haven't 80-90% of the countries been wiped out." Are you serious?
You don't need an epidemic for concern. In the span of 2-3 months, we have already had SEVEN (7) cases of Ebola in the US. 4+ of those cases slipped through CDC-approved screening protocols/safety protocols. 3 of those slipped through other safety protocols in Africa. 100% of them slipped through some safety/screening protocol, that was supposed to catch it.
If you prefer, we can simply agree to disagree here. That's up to you. I'll admit even i got tired of arguing with people who thought (and still think) vaccines caused autism. It's like discussing politics and abortion sometimes. I eventually just let them be content with whatever knowledge and viewpoint they like, since i'd rather spend my time more productively elsewhere.
Another strawman, wherein you are likening my reasonable concern and fact-based argument to anti-vaxxers. Who sounds more like the anti-vaxxers: someone who has brought up valid data and facts, or people who are making absurd analogies and comparisons, which are facially defective? Really: Dengue and Influenza? You could have done better, as doctors.
Responses in Bold
Spencer, the latest doctor in New York to come down with Ebola, slipped through CDC-approved screening protocol, and protocol approved by Doctors without Borders. Doctors Without Borders, we learned, only requires its returning workers to SELF REPORT symptoms and to take temperature two times per day. Despite these protocols, along with the CDC's forehead temperature scanning, Spencer brought Ebola back to New York.
The NIGHT BEFORE Spencer spiked a fever, he jogged miles around New York (sweat), and went bowling (sweat and saliva, wherein they had drinks).
There was NO mandatory quarantine/isolation for the incubation period of Ebola (not required by DWOB or the CDC), and such proposals are even being criticized by the left.
It is SHEER LUCK that no one else was infected by Spencer. The CDC and DWOB are playing a game of probabilities that I do NOT think we should be playing with this disease.
And if you cannot appreciate Ebola as a biomedical danger, at least appreciate it as a healthcare expenditure that could have been prevented.
How many MILLIONS of dollars have been spent on the seven people who have been infected in the United States: specialized care and treatment, tracking down and isolating all their contacts, specialized cleaning crews for any places they have come in contact with. I don't understand how so many people preached "preventive medicine," but are now totally fine with ad hoc/post hoc solutions that require millions of dollars.
Ebola is being recognized by nearly everyone as a biomedical crisis in Africa. The entire reasoning for sending people in, and not shutting down flights, is that we are preventing its spread to the US, which is an implied appreciation for a potential catastrophe for the US. BUT, when we talk about the current immediate threats to the US (flying people back, inadequate and poor screening/safety protocols, etc.), suddenly, for some people, the threat vanishes. It is less of a threat than the Flu and Dengue.
Empirically, we know that:
1. Ebola is spreading at a great rate in Africa DESPITE the intervention by DWOB and individual private religious groups. 1 million + cases projected by the CDC in 2015.
2. That by not shutting down flights, we have brought back at least 4 cases of Ebola to the US in 2-3 months.
3. Despite the CDC's hubris and assurance, and despite CDC-implemented protocol, 2 nurses have become infected from one patient (Duncan) despite wearing full protective gear.
4. Millions of dollars have been spent on a handful of people because of Ebola and the negligence in its care/prevention by governmental agencies
5. Infected individuals have been allowed (by the CDC, despite knowing they were potentially ill) to fly across the country multiple times.
6. DWOB, and the CDC, do not implement isolation/quarantine protocols for returning care workers, despite these people working with people in their most virulent state.
Ebola is a legitimate concern for reasonable people. If some are tired of hearing about it on the news, I suggest you take your misplaced frustration out on those news outlets instead of those who are reasonably concerned for the health of the nation.
And no, I am not hysterical. That is a cheap argumentation technique. I have gone about my life regularly, as I always would. I still shake hands with people, I don't wear biohazard suits out in public, and I have lived a reasonably enjoyable carefree life since the Ebola outbreak.
However, I am not in denial about its potential dangers, especially in light of the CDC's negligence in handling the situation.
*Edit*
I'm going to keep this open for some facts I happen to come across as I read about the epidemic in Africa. These are FACTS, not opinions or absurd analogies:
1. As of Oct. 23, a total of 450 HEALTHCARE WORKERS have been infected with Ebola, and of those, 244 have DIED. Source: WHO. That's a death rate of 54%+ for HEALTHCARE WORKERS who have access to health services, and 450 who were infected despite safety precautions and protocols taken.
Do NOT rule out human error as a catalyst for an outbreak. It's already been the biggest problem thus far. Do you know what would have happened had they isolated patient zero (a 2-year old boy who then infected his entire family)? 5000+ people would have been saved. BILLIONS of dollars would have been saved. If projections are correct, 1 million+ people will be saved from this disease. Hundreds of thousands of lives will have been spared. All by simply putting ONE family in QUARANTINE. Had it spread to the village, had you just quarantined ONE village, you would have saved those people above. Had we simply shut down flights, and implemented quarantines for returning healthcare workers (or banning that work altogether), we would have prevented 7 cases in the US already, and saved MILLIONS in healthcare/taxpayer dollars.
