(Eibach && Bilstein) || (Eibach && Koni)

[kenjiMR]

Hi, I'm in the process of deciding and actually attempting to purchase parts to upgrade my suspension. I spoke to Mark at Dali Racing, and ordered his Eibach Kegger w/pretzel special.

It includes the Eibach Springs, Bilstein shocks and the street/race sway bars. The only problem is that there are no Bilstein shocks in the country right now and I would have to wait till late May at the earliest before he gets them in stock. I had considered H&R+Koni and other configurations, but after some research it seemed like the Eibach + Bilstein was the best combination for the weekend warrior like myself. I do not attend too many track events per year, but I definitely would like the improved handling that a suspension upgrade provides. I would like the least amount of compromise without the results being too impractical. I live in the SF Bay Area, so as some may know, the roads here are really bad. I just don't want a suspension setup that will destroy my car.

If any of you have anything to comment on wheather or not I should just go with Eibach + Konis or if I should be patient and wait till the Bilstein shocks are in stock, then have those installed with the Eibachs.

Thank You.

 

[Larry Bastanza]

Kenji,

I would wait. For your purposes the Koni's will be too stiff. If you are impatient you will probably be disappointed and then you will sell the Koni's used (lose money) and buy the Bilstein's, have to pay the labor twice.

My $.02

HTH,
LarryB

 

[Sig]

What are some examples of suspension setups that would, "destroy my car"?

 

[sjs]

I just finished installing the Bilstein + H&R setup (plus "street bars") then yanked them off and switched the Bilsteins for Konis and like them much better, but probably still not where I'll end up in the long run.

The Bilsteins are only made in “HD” series (many others are made in HD and Sport) which are only slightly stiffer than stock. Even with the H&Rs the ride was totally civilized, but I felt that the front end was decidedly under damped/over sprung. (I would call it a pogo effect, not unlike the back of a pickup with no load in the rear). I didn’t like the feel and expected it to be just as detrimental on a bumpy track as the opposite extreme of an overly stiff suspension. Keep in mind that the H&R are constant rate and Eibachs are progressive, so you will probably be less inclined to experience the same problem in normal driving. I feel that progressive springs are a compromise and am pleased with the constant rate H&Rs.

As for the Konis being too stiff, I disagree (again with the H&Rs). On the softest setting they are very similar to the Bilsteins, but then you have the option to increase rebound damping by up to 100%.

All that said, tests years ago suggested that shocks, springs and bars on an otherwise stock NSX with OEM size tires made very little real difference on a road course. I did it partly to lower the car, and partly to have something with which to tinker. Plus I hope not to leave my engine and tires stock much longer.

If you mostly want the lower look and a lower GC with minimal impact on ride, use stock springs with the lower perch point on Bilsteins, and add the street bars.

If you decide to do the Koni + H&R, I’d be willing to sell you mine and try the new HKS pieces.

Good luck!


[This message has been edited by sjs (edited 17 April 2001).]

 

[Ponyboy]

I too have ordered the Eibach + Bilstein w/ the Bavarian creme kegger pretzel thingies. So far I've only received the springs. The creme pretzel bars are supposed to sent out this Friday so maybe I'll get them next week. The Bilstein's are supposed to be sent out to me by the end of April. If indeed I won't get mine until late May - well, crap. Make that double crap crap. Anyway, here's my .02: I think this combo is the way to go. Especially if you're concerned about streetability. The Koni's are way stiff even at their softest setting -according to everyone I spoke with about this topic. The Eibach's are the way to go too. Understand this: progressive springs are not bad. Repeato: not bad not bad. If you drive a track w/ any amount of irregularites or small bumps progressive is the way to go. For the track progressive springs will make the ride much more comfortable where it's bumpy. As the suspension goes thru it's travel the spring becomes stiffer. The initial rate is softer for better tire contact over bumps. The main advantages for progressive over linear is it's ability to lower the car's center of gravity, lowering the car more than would be possible with a linear spring and still keep the car from bottoming out (per Don Alexander), and maintaining a greater degree of tire contact with the road, especially over bumpy surfaces. Plus w/ the Eibachs you can be closer to or keep your stock alignment settings. The race/street sways are a good balance between a pure track car and a street car. From what I hear Dali's track bars may *MAY* be too strong for the Eibach's and Bilsteins. But I don't have any experience with the track bars at all. Overall, I think this is the way to go given your listed parameters. The only other option I thought about was going the Zanardi route. This is a stiffer setup. For more info on this, contact Marc Weinberg.

Hope it helps.

 

[Edo]

I dont know who's been saying that the Koni's are too stiff, but at the softest setting they feel almost identical to stock as far as I can tell. The Zanardi's on the other hand feel about the same as the Koni's at full stiff, coupled with Comptech Sway Bars at full stiffness.
Definitely NOT very streetable in my opinion.

 

[Ponyboy]

Oh, just about anyone who has an NSX and a mouth full of fillings.

Ok, that was a smart ass answer but, frankly, I asked at least eight owners about this and everyone of them said that they thought the koni's were too stiff. Even one of the distributors said that the koni's were "just too damn stiff." And that was enough to sway me in the Bilstein direction. Just my .02.

 

[kenjiMR]

Thanks guys!
I think I'll be patient and wait for the Bilsteins too like Ponyboy. I'll just have the sways mailed to me when they are available and deal with the shocks and springs at the same time later next month.

 

[sjs]

As I said, I ran Bilsteins and Konis on my car, back to back, as recently as a few weeks ago. The Konis on full soft are NOT noticeably stiffer than the Bilsteins, and may well be softer. I have the actual rates for the Konis noted below, does anyone have these values for the Bilsteins and/or stock?

Front: 900 N Compression
1400 N Rebound (at min) * 2 at max
Rear: 900 N Compression
2100 N Rebound (at min) * 2 at max

Keep in mind that the compression rate is largely related to unsprung weight, so those with big heavy wheels, tires and brakes may have a different sense of things than others.

Originally posted by Ponyboy:
The main advantages for progressive over linear is it's ability to lower the car's center of gravity, lowering the car more than would be possible with a linear spring and still keep the car from bottoming out (per Don Alexander), and maintaining a greater degree of tire contact with the road, especially over bumpy surfaces. Plus w/ the Eibachs you can be closer to or keep your stock alignment settings.

I can only assume that Don’s statements have been misinterpreted. Addressing the second point first, the Eibachs allow you to keep your alignment settings closer to stock because they lower the car slightly less, period. There are simple ways to accomplish the same with H&Rs. As for bottoming out, he may mean the spring coils themselves. Despite being linear rate, the H&R’s are designed with a wider gap at the top and less at the bottom and won’t “bottom out” before the suspension does. Since the Eibachs start softer they are probably more likely to bottom the suspension, except that they are slightly taller and therefore allow that much more travel before doing so.

The bottom line is still fairly simple. Progressive rate springs reduce harshness over small bumps and road seams but at the expense of crispness on initial turn-in (an NSX forte.) How many racecars use them, even on bumpy tracks? They will go to softer springs and shocks, but still linear rates. But neither the Bilsteins (essentially OEM replacements by design) nor the H&R’s even approach the softest rate that you would use on a serious race NSX on any track. I’m not saying they are bad, just that they are a compromise many people are willing to make. Don’t believe me, ask some very serious racers rather than a salesman.


[This message has been edited by sjs (edited 18 April 2001).]

 

[Lud]

Bilstein makes a good product BUT you better get down on your knees and pray that you never need any kind of customer support from them because they simply do not provide it.

I got a set recently and a little part was missing (#11 on the parts diagram). They sent two #12s. Then they would not even return any further calls or make any effort to actually get me the right part (or tell me that the part was unavailable if that was the case). After a few weeks I ended up having to pay out the ass to have it CUSTOM MACHINED!! That is not cheap, BTW.

There will be a very negative review of Bilstein's customer service on the opening page of this website in the next few weeks, specifically naming John Vargas who everyone at Bilstein told me was the person who needed to help me, but who never answered his phone in over 30 calls and never returned any of about a dozen voicemails.

As far as availability: The guys in Germany don't seem to be any smarter than their US counterparts - they only sent half (front or rear, I forget). The other half are what will not be here until sometime around June.

 

[justin hall]

just to throw in my $.02.......

I am running the koni shocks with comptech springs and sway bars. anyone who tells you that this setup is too stiff is either;

1. wrong
2. drove the sport setup with the shocks on the firm setting
3. drove the professional setup

With the sport package shocks set to the softest setting, the comfort level driving the car on street is as close as I have seen in any setup, even with lowering springs!!! You then have the option to tighten those things down and the handling is great on track - I have been on Thunderhill 2x in the last 4 days and received nothing but compliments with the setup...

In my mind this setup is the best of both worlds - I can make the car feel pretty close to a race car then tune it down to be pretty much stock. combine that with the poor Bilstein customer service mentioned above and there is no way NOT to go with the comptech / koni setup.

------------------
Justin
'98 NSX-T Blk/Blk
· Comptech headers / exhaust / airbox
· Dali Racing / Brembo big brake kit
· Koni adjustable suspension w/Comptech springs and sway bars
· Volk TE-37 17/18” wheels
· Wings West side skirts and rear spats


[This message has been edited by justin hall (edited 18 April 2001).]

 

[Lud]

There is more than one Comptech spring and shock package. The "professional" kit is extremely stiff and not very well suited to street driving.

 

[justin hall]

Originally posted by Lud:
There is more than one Comptech spring and shock package. The "professional" kit is extremely stiff and not very well suited to street driving.

you are right, I have the $1400 sport version, not the $4300 professional.

 

[aaron]

I've been out of the NSX aftermarket for some time now, but doesn't H&R make a coil-over? In my opion and experince every $ I spent on suspension that wasn't H&R was a waste! Its not just about dampening, but quality dampening! With good damping chara. the springs can be stiffer, without a rough ride.

 

[kenjiMR]

Justin Hall, do you know how those comptech springs compare with Eibachs?
Are they lower, stiffer, etc?

 

[justin hall]

Originally posted by kenjiMR:
Justin Hall, do you know how those comptech springs compare with Eibachs?

Only via hearsay, I have not had both on my car. From what I have been told, the Eibach’s are about the same drop and a bit firmer. There may be others on the board that have tried both and have direct experience.

 

[sjs]

According to Dali... http://www.daliracing.com/nsxcatalog/suspension/more_springs_matrix.cfm

 

[Ponyboy]

"I can only assume that Don’s statements have been misinterpreted."

Maybe. I could be wrong, have been wrong before. But how can a subjective opinion on ride quality be wrong. Tire contact patch reasoning makes sense and so does the "bottoming out" action due to being a taller spring. Hey, maybe Don A. is full of it too.

"Addressing the second point first, the Eibachs allow you to keep your alignment settings closer to stock because they lower the car slightly less, period."

Exactly! Around .03 if I remember correctly. Regardless, you still get to keep your stock settings. You don't with the lower spring. No argument here.

"The bottom line is still fairly simple. Progressive rate springs reduce harshness over small bumps and road seams but at the expense of crispness on initial turn-in (an NSX forte.)"

Good point. I tend to think that reduction in harshness and increase in contact patch would more than make up any reduction in initial turn-in. Isn't that more of a function of a mid-engined car and traction than slightly stiffer springs? Besides, stiffer sways will help alot in this regard too.

"They will go to softer springs and shocks, but still linear rates."

Good point again. In fact, they do and I would too for race conditions. But they also test their setup and tune their spring (linear, mind you) and shock setup to make the best compromise and the best time. And they do this to find the best combo for whatever track and surface condition they're in.

"Don’t believe me, ask some very serious racers rather than a salesman."

Hey, sjs I don't want to "go personal" with this dialogue and I think we have a pretty good conversation here but that's a pretty blind preconception that those less forgiving would take some offense to. I don't know exactly what the intention (serious or not serious) of the people (plural) I asked but I believe they weren't very serious, just trying to find the best compromise. The progessive nature of both the Bilsteins and Eibach's allow a low CG, excellent tire patch contact, and stock alignment settings.
And if I haven't misinterpreted CGI Motorsports, the Realtime NSX used to have Bilsteins, very serious race car. That quote is in the FAQ and and, honestly, is a little vague. They could have used stiffer Bilsteins?

 

[kenjiMR]

Interesting...
After the continuation of this thread, I am now thinking maybe the Konis will be good enough. If in fact setting them to the softest setting == Bilstein. If thats the case, it wouldn't hurt to have the ability to tighten them when I'm at Laguna Seca. I guess this is a hard decision because so few people have actually used both Koni and Bilsteins. To me, It sounded like Mark agreed with me when I said I would wait for the Bilsteins to come in. In any case, if Koni's behave similarly on soft settings, I have no problem with the Konis.

 

[justin hall]

Originally posted by kenjiMR:
Interesting...
After the continuation of this thread, I am now thinking maybe the Konis will be good enough.

gee - wouldn't that be a shame if you had to "settle" for the Koni's....

 

[sjs]

Originally posted by Ponyboy:
…but that's a pretty blind preconception that those less forgiving would take some offense

Sorry! I really didn’t mean any offense, honestly. Sometimes I don’t read and edit my own words before posting, but even when I read that now it doesn’t sound harsh to me, just matter of fact based on years of people trying to lead me down the path which profits them, or simply and honestly the only one they know.

As for the bottoming out, yes the Eibachs are taller, but also softer, and therefore compress further on a bump. The H&Rs compress less and the coil spacing is designed to prevent them from being the limit. So all I’m saying is that neither spring is likely to be a problem under any reasonable conditions.

In terms of overall spring rates and keeping the tires in contact with the pavement, it still seems to me that both of these options are way below the point where that is a problem. So I think perceived harshness is the real issue at these levels, not whether they are too stiff to perform on rough pavement. Look again at the CT spring rates. Now those appear excessive and may well cause such problems. The anti-sway bars play an important role here as well. Go too stiff on them and you skip across the rough stuff.

Originally posted by kenjiMR:
…I am now thinking maybe the Konis will be good enough...

Not to back-peddle here, but keep in mind that my experience with Bilstein & Koni is with H&R. IMHO the Bilsteins were too soft for them but are probably will suited to the Eibachs. There’s always the possibility that you will find the Konis too stiff with the Eibachs. I would try very hard to get the Bilstein specs and compare them to those I posted for the Konis before you decide on the latter.

BTW, the Bilsteins come more complete with new spring perch, bump stop and dust boot. With the Konis you reuse your old ones. Even more disappointing, the Konis weigh slightly more (~1lb). :-(

There just aren’t many dead simple decisions with these things, but I'm still having a blast!



[This message has been edited by sjs (edited 20 April 2001).]

 

[Craig]

I am in the same situation, I ordered Bilsteins in January from Dali. Early on Mark ASKED ME if I would rather have Koni's, and I elected to wait. Even now after finding out that the order will be delayed untill late May, I have still decided to wait for the Bilsteins.

The main reason, I do not want to lower my car more than the 7/8" the Bilsteins will provide by using aftermarket springs. BUT I do want to lower my car slightly.

The secondary reason, from information gained from this forum, it is my understanding that Bilsteins w/ OEM coupe springs will give me better than stock performance and slightly lower the car without effecting ride quality.

For some reason (because of similar discussions on this forum) I am of the understanding that the Koni's "rattle"? or are much stiffer even on their softest setting than the Bilsteins. Is this actually the case? AND is there another way to lower the car only 1" without going to the Bilsteins? Are there a set of aftermarket springs that only lower by 1"?

I don't think that this is a commentary on product quality or worthiness but rather each individuals preference on performance and set up.

 

[Lud]

A few clarifications on some posts:

The Bilsteins only come with the LOWER spring perch, you still have to re-use your upper mount and rubber thingy. There is nothing wrong with this, I just wanted to make sure that was clear because if you have replaced those with aftermarket parts, you will have to go back to OEM as they are not included w/ the Bilsteins.

The Bilstein's do not lower your car 7/8" total with aftermarket springs. They either lower your car by the amount of aftermarket springs lower the car, or that amount PLUS 7/8". They allow 7/8" drop with STOCK springs.

The standard Koni's do not rattle. Actually no shock rattles unless it has a problem. It's the springs losing contact with their mounting perches and clanking against the shocks or perch that rattle/clank.

The standard Koni's on their softest setting are not "much stiffer" than stock.

Yes, there are aftermarket springs that only drop it about 1" - the Eibach Pro Kit springs (the regular ones most people install for the NSX).

 

[nel]

Originally posted by kenjiMR:
Interesting...
After the continuation of this thread, I am now thinking maybe the Konis will be good enough. If in fact setting them to the softest setting == Bilstein. If thats the case, it wouldn't hurt to have the ability to tighten them when I'm at Laguna Seca. I guess this is a hard decision because so few people have actually used both Koni and Bilsteins. To me, It sounded like Mark agreed with me when I said I would wait for the Bilsteins to come in. In any case, if Koni's behave similarly on soft settings, I have no problem with the Konis.

kenjiMR, I'm also looking to lower 1" but can't find a set of Bilstein anywhere.

I'll get (Mark has the Bilsteins in May?Bilstein:Konis);

-Nick

 

[Edo]

Why not just go with Comptech's Coilover Kit?
Its something like 1200 dollars with the NSXCA discount, and you have the adjustable Koni's Which are NOT too harsh for the street. I will say again, THEY ARE NOT TOO STIFF for the street. I couldnt tell the difference between the stock setup and the Koni's on full soft.

Comptech's Coilovers come with Adjustable Spring perches, so you're ride height can be custom tailored to suit your tastes/needs, and the adjustable shocks also can be tailored to suit your tastes. All in all a more superior solution than trying to find the right spring/shock combo to get you to the right height.

Also, keep in mind Comptech sends out all of the springs to have the spring rates measured. They then match each set perfectly, and even give you slightly stiffer springs for the driver side. I dont think you can really beat that. (I dont know but I think Comptech's spring's are just re-badged Progressive rate Eibachs)

Price wise I think they are quite reasonable, and the versatility is unmatched by any other suspension setup. (Except maybe the super-mega-ultra expensive Pro kit they sell)