Factor X Turbo & BBSC

[CiaoBoy]

Dont forget about Cybernations Turbo..

The dyno numbers for their 3.0L application were achieved by putting ice over the intake manifold, so they are slightly misrepresented. 381 ft-lbs is what they got with the ice. I'd prefer to see dyno numbers from Cybernation for their 3.0L kit when they use a more normal setup.

-CiaoBoy

 

[Lud]

Ryanmcd2 is correct about diminishing returns from overdriving a system and blowing off the extra boost. If it was that simple, everybody would greatly overdrive their setup. But the additional heat generated is a real issue.

As for 10 PSI tubo setups being safe on a stock motor, that is a matter of opinion at this point, and one not shared by a majority of people I've talked to in the past. Nobody has shared any reports on long-term effects of an NSX built like that. In fact, unless they are keeping it a secret, nobody has even run a car like that at the track for a weekend (much less a season) to see how it stands up. If I'm just out of the loop, great, let's hear about it! Hey, I'm all for it if it does turn out to be a safe setup, but I think that needs to be proven before the claim can be made.

 

[Jimbo]

There are of course, diminishing returns for massively overdriving a FI setup.

But it does seem that the BBSC users who have the latest setup are getting more boost earlier.

-Jim

 

[Lud]

But it does seem that the BBSC users who have the latest setup are getting more boost earlier.

It does? Please share the wealth! I'd certainly like to see more info on the overdriven BBSC cars! I've been asking about it for a long time.

Andy's car is a special one-off type case. It has internal engine work, a custom air/water aftercooler, etc. That is not what I'm looking for. I'm curious:

1. How many otherwise stock BBSC kits / engines have the Novi 2000 blower and waste valve? How much are the overdriving it?

2. Are there dyno plots for those cars? To be honest, I don't care about people measuring boost (other than from a "make sure it's doing what we think" R&D standpoint). All that really matters to me performance-wise is (1) It's safe and (2) the power at the wheels over the RPM range.

3. Is it ready as a "production" kit with the 2000 blower and the waste valve yet, and if so, how much $?


I said way, way back before the first non-beta kit was installed or anybody was talking publically about it that I thought an overdriven setup could be a hot ticket for the BBSC. I am very interested in finding out more, and if I've missed some recently developments, someone please let me know.

 

[Yellow Rose]

Andy, you write quite well when in a Tequila affected state!

Anyway, my skepticism of centrifugal SC boost characteristics was not meant to impugn your or anyone's credibility but rather is just a consequence of my readings on supercharger theory.

#9 - no Tequila right now.....too early in the day for the hard stuff.....right now I'm sipping on my eight (watch for the pun with the waitress) Bailey's and coffee, so I'll try to watch my manners.

Anyhow, glad your readings have taught you well. As an ME for +20 yrs, I am all too familiar with centrifugal vs positive-displacement machines. But thanks for the refresher course.

My overall point was that when GJ's turbo comes up, folks slam the BBSC but not the GMSC nor CTSC. Why? Hmmm, interesting observation - GM and CT are companies vs MB being a person.

Yes, I agree with your assessment of the turbo not being belt driven, thus allowing faster spool-up than a super. Therefore, comparing the HP/TQ curves of a turbo vs a super really aren't on a parity basis. The two machines are different in their own rights. It's like comparing the HP/TQ curve of a turbo or a super, to that of a nitrous engine. It's not even in the same league, because of the huge spike when the button is hit.

Oh waitress, I'm ready for my #9 Bailey's and coffee. Please hurry, I have a car I need to go tune.

 

[Jimbo]

v8killer recently wrote...

My BBSC w/Novi 2000 starts to pull hard from 3000 to redline.

It's my opinion that the BBSC with the latest improvements is going to offer great performance (at 3K RPMS and up) and a elegantly designed package.

All FI systems have compromises but I believe that the BBSC will be the best of breed.

-Jim

 

[NetViper]

Just saw this on downforce.biz

"We are proud to offer the single turbo setup by Performance AutoWorx . We truely believe in this product to carry it in our line up. The designer and fabricator of this setup is very honest and straight foward. Real usable power comes on at 3,000 rpms. The standard setup with factory internals (factory compression) runs at 4psi and will produce 325HP at the rear wheels. The car can be set to run at 6psi. The turbo features a Garret T04E Turbocharger with AEM Engine Management. As a bonus the intercooler will be included with your purchase of the Turbo setup.
Price $5,900"

 

[CiaoBoy]

It's my opinion that the BBSC with the latest improvements is going to offer great performance (at 3K RPMS and up) and a elegantly designed package.

All FI systems have compromises but I believe that the BBSC will be the best of breed.

-Jim

Hmm, I have my doubts. If a centrifugal supercharger produces boost at an exponential rate relative to engine rpm, and it's tuned to provide more boost at a lower rpm (like 3k rpm) and implement a blow-off valve to get rid of the excess boost, then at the top end of the rev band the supercharger will be even MORE overdriven.

-CiaoBoy

 

[Ryanmcd2]

Hmm, I have my doubts. If a centrifugal supercharger produces boost at an exponential rate relative to engine rpm, and it's tuned to provide more boost at a lower rpm (like 3k rpm) and implement a blow-off valve to get rid of the excess boost, then at the top end of the rev band the supercharger will be even MORE overdriven.

-CiaoBoy

Take a look at the EVO the new turbo mitsu, it get's it TQ down low because of a boost spike and then boost bleads off on top but that is done with a computer and I feel you have more control over a turbo then you do a supercharger.

 

[Yellow Rose]

Hmm, I have my doubts. If a centrifugal supercharger produces boost at an exponential rate relative to engine rpm, and it's tuned to provide more boost at a lower rpm (like 3k rpm) and implement a blow-off valve to get rid of the excess boost, then at the top end of the rev band the supercharger will be even MORE overdriven.

Not only are you doubting, but you are also confused.

With the blow-off valve, how can you infer that the SC will be even more overdriven, if said valve prevents excess boost?

 

[CiaoBoy]

Not only are you doubting, but you are also confused.

With the blow-off valve, how can you infer that the SC will be even more overdriven, if said valve prevents excess boost?

Sorry, maybe I'm using the term "overdriven" incorrectly. My point is that if the centrifugal supercharger is producing lots of boost at 3000 rpm and there is a lot of excess boost at 8000 rpm, then the centrifugal supercharger will be very inefficient at 8000 rpm. I didn't mean to imply that the SC will overboost the engine. Of course the blow-off valve is there to get rid of the excess boost, but the supercharger is still doing a lot of work to compress all that air which is essentially getting wasted.

-CiaoBoy

 

[Factor X Motorsports]

http://www.nsxprime.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=16795

 

[Lud]

So will anybody answer my 3 overdriven BBSC questions above? If it this kit doesn't even exist yet, why are people arguing about it? If it does exist, let's hear about it!

 

[Ryanmcd2]

So will anybody answer my 3 overdriven BBSC questions above? If it this kit doesn't even exist yet, why are people arguing about it? If it does exist, let's hear about it!

Good point. lol Also FactorX is cross posting

 

[BryanZublin]

Originally posted by Lud So will anybody answer my 3 overdriven BBSC questions above? If it this kit doesn't even exist yet, why are people arguing about it? If it does exist, let's hear about it!

Hopefully when www.baschboost.com comes online, it will answer most of our questions. If Chris Wilson (SoS) has anything to do with the web page design, it should be a very good site.

 

[4AU4LIFE]

Does anybody know when www.baschboost.com is coming on?

 

[Ryanmcd2]

Does anybody know when www.baschboost.com is coming on?

He said 2 weeks ago a few days right?

 

[4AU4LIFE]

Good, that means it should be up NOW !

 

[Ryanmcd2]

Good, that means it should be up NOW !

It has been saying coming soon for about 6 months. I would hate to see what his "In a while" is lol

 

[4AU4LIFE]

I'm just anxious for the site.

 

[Lud]

Hopefully when www.baschboost.com comes online, it will answer most of our questions. If Chris Wilson (SoS) has anything to do with the web page design, it should be a very good site.

I hope the web site will answer questions.. But people were making claims about this setup that implied they had knowledge of it, e.g. "it does seem that the BBSC users who have the latest setup are getting more boost earlier."

So I just wanted to know the details... Who are these users, other than Andy and his heavily modified low-comp built prototype setup? How many are installed? What are the specs on boost? How much power are these cars making and at what RPM? How much does this setup cost? What, if any, other mods are recommended (e.g. does it need the aftercooler since it builds more heat?)

If the details aren't available, why are people making it sound like this is a tried, tested and available solution?

As I've said many times I think there is a lot of potential here, but these "vaporware" claims (by people OTHER than Mark himself) really undermine the credibility of any dicussions and frustrate those of us who are trying to learn more. In fact, they are just as bad as the people starting or propagating third or fourth hand rumors or innuendo about problems with various FI setups with no factual evidence to back up their claims.

Let's discuss facts. Let's discuss what is available, what the specs are, how it performs, how much it costs, what the pros and cons are, etc. And if we are going to discuss what might be, or could be, or we hope (or know) will be, let's preface our comments as such.

This has nothing to do with Mark or the BBSC in particular, it applies to any discussion.

 

[kpond]

Lud, well said.

And more to the point specifically, despite many implications, I cannot avail myself of even a single data point that shows where BBSC config beyond "the original" Novi1000 is making more peak HP or increasing the area "under the curve". If you look back through the threads here, you will find a few cases of BBSC dyno plots showing 380-403 peak HP at 8000 rpm. Since this actual data has been available, there have been many implications of Novi2K setups, low compression motors with higher boost, aftercoolers, etc.

However, the very best BBSC configs with actual dyno plot data seem to be from the best tuned "original" Novi 1000 set-ups. If someone has dyno data from these newer - potentially upcoming kit variations, it would be real nice to compare the results to the original config.

Unfortunately, the only data point that I have of one of these more highly modified cars (low comp motor, higher boost, Novi 2K, aftercooler, etc.), was showing LESS HP/Tq across the entire RPM range. Now, admittedly, this car was not yet tuned well for a/f... but I didn't think it was that far off to justify the lower numbers. Again, hardly a good data point but one that casts more uncertainty (for me) in the newer variations.

This is NOT attack on MB nor any of the owners.... I don't think anyone is trying to deceive. This is just another appeal (like Lud's) to arm us with actiual data and then let's take a look very objectively at the data and see how our collective wisdom can further improve this set-up.

The bottom line is that I have what I beleive to be a very well tuned Novi1K BBSC and I am very happy with it. However, I would gladly entertain improvements to this config - especially to have more area under the curve.... I just haven't seen a SINGLE example yet that SHOWS that.

 

[Jimbo]

But people were making claims about this setup that implied they had knowledge of it, e.g. "it does seem that the BBSC users who have the latest setup are getting more boost earlier."

Uhhh....that would be me.

I've heard several people mention this. And I did post the following quote from "v8killer" who said...

"...My BBSC w/Novi 2000 starts to pull hard from 3000 to redline..."

That seems to be a pretty clear statement of someone getting more most earlier (than the oft-mention 5K).

To imply that I was spreading rumors or untruths isn't quite fair. I can't speak for "v8killer" or any of the others who have the N2000 setup, but it's certainly no reason to accuse me of rumormongering.

-Jim

 

[Ryanmcd2]

Uhhh....that would be me.

I've heard several people mention this. And I did post the following quote from "v8killer" who said...

"...My BBSC w/Novi 2000 starts to pull hard from 3000 to redline..."

To imply that I was spreading rumors or untruths isn't quite fair. I can't speak for "v8killer" or any of the others who have the N2000 setup, but it's certainly no reason to accuse me of rumormongering.

-Jim

Do you have a BBSC?

 

[MiamieNeSeX]

Do you have a BBSC?

Do you?