FX500 car going back to the shop for repairs?

[TampaBayNSX-R]

I've heard some very sad news, if it's true, regarding a significant failure of a recently received FX500 car. Purportedly the car suffered damage while on the dyno in the St. Louis area while Factor X was tuning it. Please note that this information was provided to me second hand so lets see if we can get confirmation and details first.

I know there are many of us who have been very excited by the recent developments in turbo options for the NSX by Factor X and others. It would be great to get information on what happened(If anything) and why.

 

[Yellow Rose]

Please No.....

.....if this is who I think it is.

 

[NetViper]

I hope that is not who I think it is.

 

[Ponyboy]

Ugh, now that sucks. Let's hope the owner and Factor X get it figured out and running again soon.

<== wanting to believe in and has high hopes for FI vendors.

 

[MiamieNeSeX]

I've heard some very sad news, if it's true, regarding a significant failure of a recently received FX500 car. Purportedly the car suffered damage while on the dyno in the St. Louis area while Factor X was tuning it. Please note that this information was provided to me second hand so lets see if we can get confirmation and details first..

If its true then I feel for Gene.


Armando

 

[KGP]

Here's the scoop: When we were dynoing the car, we were noticing a drop in oil pressure. It's not like the engine seized up or anything. In fact, we drove the car home. We came to an initial conclusion that there might have been some oil starvation. Just this very moment Mike called me and confirmed that a bearing was starved of oil. I just didn't want to post about something that wasn't known as fact, thus waited till now.

The bigger question - why?: In an attempt at having the best possible oil cooling available for my car, a much larger oil cooler was used, which meant the only possible location to mount it was inside the passenger q panel. This was a configuration not yet done by FX. Looks like there was just too much oil line to maintain pressure.

The biggest question - How's it being taken care of?: FX called a shipper, of my choice, and had the car picked up for transport to Vegas, where the oil system will be modified. FX had the cheif of R&D from a major turbo manufacture come in for an evaluation as well. The system will be corrected, along with any engine problems, and will be sent back to its warm and comfy garrage.

Yea, it's a bummer, but it sure is nice to have a company stand up and accept the responsibility, even without asking for them to do so.

 

[ALIENT]

That's awesome support KGP! Sorry to hear about the 'bugs' in the system, but knowing they will be addressed is awesome in a timely matter is great.

Keep us updated..

 

[Yellow Rose]

Pressure Drop

Looks like there was just too much oil line to maintain pressure.

Respectfully, something doesn't add up. Ed Klemz (goes by "nsxbuilder" herein) has his oil cooler mounted up front where the spare tire used to be. If I recall correctly, he used -12 or -16 SS lines and his oil pump is able to maintain oil pressure. In addition to the factory oil pressure gauge, he mounted an aftermarket gauge in the engine bay on top of his strut bar positioned so he can see it in his rearview mirror. Personally, I think he should be looking out the windshield while driving, but maybe it is a snowbird thing. Anyhow, the point is that unless there was an unusual blockage (not out of the realm of possibility when assembling SS line) the oil pump should have been able to delivery enough pressure. I know of at least three other NSXers that also have their oil cooler mounted inside the RR fender with no problems.

 

[KGP]

Re: Pressure Drop

Looks like there was just too much oil line to maintain pressure.

Respectfully, something doesn't add up. Anyhow, the point is that unless there was an unusual blockage (not out of the realm of possibility when assembling SS line) the oil pump should have been able to delivery enough pressure. I know of at least three other NSXers that also have their oil cooler mounted inside the RR fender with no problems.

Point well taken. What is known for fact is that there was oil starvation and that the pressure readings fell. The long oil line thing is a guess. The engine is not appart yet, but they will get to that Wed or Thur. Could be a number of things; Billet oil gear failed, oil cooler was restricting for some reason, etc. Just don't know yet.

 

[Arata]

Re: Pressure Drop

Point well taken. What is known for fact is that there was oil starvation and that the pressure readings fell. The long oil line thing is a guess. The engine is not appart yet, but they will get to that Wed or Thur. Could be a number of things; Billet oil gear failed, oil cooler was restricting for some reason, etc. Just don't know yet.

"We came to an initial conclusion that there might have been some oil starvation. Just this very moment Mike called me and confirmed that a bearing was starved of oil."

If the bearing had already failed, meaning some of the bearing that is not supposed to wear away has, that leaves a huge bearing clearance, I do not know what the stock clearance is on an NSX, but common clearances are .001" to .003". When it is worn away to .100" or larger, there can be a huge loss of oil pressure, as the oil now dumps past the worn out bearing.

 

[TampaBayNSX-R]

Gene,
I'm sorry to hear of your misfortune. I'm relieved to hear that it's a "relatively" minor issue that was caught early on. I'm very pleased to learn of the support you are receiving from Factor X. That is exactly what we all would have wanted for you. It's nice to know they are giving you full support without delay.

It was not my intent to "spill the beans" relating to your incident. I actually waited a few days to see if there would be any information posted about it before deciding to put out a feeler. Learning of the details relating to your car and, more importantly, the way Factor X is handling the situation is of great value to the community. Thank you for sharing.

 

[KGP]

It was not my intent to "spill the beans" relating to your incident. I actually waited a few days to see if there would be any information posted about it before deciding to put out a feeler.

I would have posted after I would have returned from a trip next week to Mexico, but not until then, as I have far too much on my plate right now. While I did confide in a few people (less than a hand full) that there was a problem with the car, the last thing I wanted to do is answer questions for which I have no answers to, thus they were told in confidence, at least until I knew more and posted about it. It's interesting that the information was disiminated from the person it was (not referring to Tampa).

 

[sjs]

Re: Pressure Drop

"...If the bearing had already failed, meaning some of the bearing that is not supposed to wear away has, that leaves a huge bearing clearance, I do not know what the stock clearance is on an NSX, but common clearances are .001" to .003". When it is worn away to .100" or larger, there can be a huge loss of oil pressure, as the oil now dumps past the worn out bearing.

Which is exactly why the initial diagnosis of the pressure problem was a failing bearing, and the car was shipped back without further discussion.

As for something not adding up, I agree with Gene that it is too soon to say what precipitated the problem. However, external add-on oil coolers have a long and somewhat notorious reputation spanning back decades, right up to present day. While not what I would call "common", it is not extremely rare to have this type of problem. But that's just one of several possibilities so we need to wait and see. The important thing for potential turbo owners to keep in mind is that this is not a direct result of adding forced induction as such.

 

[RP-Motorsports]

Would a dry sump help keep a constant pressure?

 

[Arata]

Would a dry sump help keep a constant pressure?

No the advantage of a dry sump is the oil is removed from anywhere near the rotating crank, this reduces "windage" losses.
Windage losses are what amount of HP is lost due to the crank spinning in oil which slows it down more than if there was no oil.
In a lot of cases the cranks in the motors are already so high, there may be very small benefits.
The dry sump will also benetfit with improved oil cooling.
The dry sump doers insure a better supply of oil to the oil pump, but in this case, it most likely was not a lack of oil getting to the pump,.

 

[Arata]

Here's the scoop: When we were dynoing the car, we were noticing a drop in oil pressure. It's not like the engine seized up or anything. In fact, we drove the car home. We came to an initial conclusion that there might have been some oil starvation. Just this very moment Mike called me and confirmed that a bearing was starved of oil. QUOTE]

Which is exactly why the initial diagnosis of the pressure problem was a failing bearing,

Low pressure could have been caused by many things, they had a low pressure and later determined it was a bearing problem. If they had know it was a bearing problem at that time he would not have driven it home, which could have caused more damage.
The easy way to determind a bearing failure is to simply drain the oil, when a bearing fails, you get a lot of small shiny particals in the oil pan, and the filter also, I used to cut the filters open, we call those particals "Mechanics Gold"

 

[D'Ecosse]

Bearing failure / Oil pressure loss - which came first, the chicken or the egg?

 

[MiamieNeSeX]

Gene, I hope you are back on the road real soon, having said that let the "Monday Morning Quarterbacking" begin.

Armando

 

[sjs]

No the advantage of a dry sump is the oil is removed from anywhere near the rotating crank, this reduces "windage" losses.
Windage losses are what amount of HP is lost due to the crank spinning in oil which slows it down more than if there was no oil.
In a lot of cases the cranks in the motors are already so high, there may be very small benefits.
The dry sump will also benetfit with improved oil cooling.
The dry sump doers insure a better supply of oil to the oil pump, but in this case, it most likely was not a lack of oil getting to the pump,.

That description of primary advantages of a dry sump system is accurate as far as it goes, but the answer to the question is actually Yes, it would help to keep a constant pressure. Dry sump systems use a separate belt-driven high volume pump which is designed to supply oil through lengthy lines, coolers, thermostats and external filters. Mind you they still have other potential issues, but if designed correctly they handle all the extra plumbing etc easily. The other BIG advantage is that dry sump systems don't suffer from starvation during high-G cornering, which is why I converted my GT4 510 this season.

 

[sjs]

...The easy way to determind a bearing failure is to simply drain the oil, when a bearing fails, you get a lot of small shiny particals in the oil pan, and the filter also, I used to cut the filters open, we call those particals "Mechanics Gold"

But other things can leave metal particles in the oil, such as a faulty pump gear grinding on the housing. An experienced engine guy can tell the difference at a glance. Bearing bits tend to be more like a sludge made up of small flakes.

 

[sjs]

Bearing failure / Oil pressure loss - which came first, the chicken or the egg?

Always a question, but inspection of the bearing and journal may hold clues. Either way, the entire lubrication system needs a thorough flushing and inspection.

 

[KGP]

If they had know it was a bearing problem at that time he would not have driven it home, which could have caused more damage.

Good point. My initial post of "When we were dynoing the car, we were noticing a drop in oil pressure" is not entirely accurate. Not that I was trying to mislead, just didn't take time to be specific, or more appropriately, think back and correctly recall the events of that day. During the dyno session the pressure was okay, at least it showed as much from the occasional glimpse at the oil pressure guage (warning light never came on). It was right after the dyno on the way home that the readings started to drop. We had a few miles to go, and still had pressure, as it was only at idle that the readings were low. Once back at home Mike was working with the AEM for the A/C settings and noticed a continuing decline in pressure. He determined it best that we shut it off, and he then told me that he would arrange for the car to get back to Vegas for a thorough inspection and repairs. The only face that looked worse than mine was his. No words needed to be spoken, as we both were able to read each others mind as far as how one felt.

This morning Mike called, saying that (as Dan puts it) "Mechanics Gold" was found when inspecting the oil.

Armando, right you are! Let the Monday morning quarter-backing begin (or continue). Exactly what I had hoped to avoid until we had the real answers.

To those who didn't PM me asking "what happened," thanks. I think most of you guys know me well enough to know that I will provide the details when I can give something more than just a guess.

 

[len3.8]

Gene, I hope you are back on the road real soon, having said that let the "Monday Morning Quarterbacking" begin.

Armando

Exactly!!!
Gene, I am sure you'll get it right.
You still have driven more than I have for the year.

 

[kpond]

Gene,

How was the dyno session itself? Were you monitoring AF's? Were you happy with the results/tuning during the dyno session... before you became aware of a problem?

 

[NA1 #2853]

Well when you push the envelope, sh*t happens sometimes. I happy to hear that Factor-X is acting quickly before a problem cascades into many problems.

Gene, she'll be back on the road soon, testing the limits of modern tire technology! Just smile, and keep your spirits up.

-Ray