Gauging Interest: Custom Affordable Big Brake Kit

[Madhatter10-6]

I have owned / modified 90's Japanese cars for over 18 years now. This summer I finally picked up my first NSX (http://www.nsxprime.com/forum/showthread.php/190372-New-Member-Turbo-NSX) and absolutely love the car! The biggest complaint that I had with them was that they were grossly under powered from the factory and fortunately SOS had already solved this issue for the previous owner and I didn't have to mess with it.


The next major shortcoming of the car in my opinion are the factory brakes. They are just god awful. I have been researching aftermarket kits Brembo, Stoptech, etc and while they make nice products they seem very overpriced....and the lack of an (affordable) ebrake is inexcusable.


I am considering having a break adapter kit manufactured that will allow me to attach the calipers / rotors from a different car to the NSX.

The goals with the kit are as follows:

1) Reliable / safe. Everything will be overbuilt and then some.
2) Affordable. Sub $2,500 for all 4 corners with rotors is my goal.
3) Retain the factory ebrake functionality.
4) Easy / non invasive install.
5) Donor parts from a mass produced car that are easy to source.
6) Branding. I would like the rotors to just say "Brembo" on them or nothing instead of mentioning the donor vehicle. This will just look cleaner.



Before I went much further down this rabbit hole I was curious to see what the interest in such a kit would be? Feel free to comment on your personal interest and how you think the NSX community would respond.


Thanks

Saxon

 

[jtrikakis]

You may want to looking into Tarox. They aren't well known in the NSX community, but they are affordable and make an rear adapter to retain your NSX caliper that works with their larger rotor.

 

[DDozier]

I would second the Tarox option, I had them on my 91 and now on my 04 but you will not buy them for under $2500.00 for a front and rear set with new rotors. I can price it with them as I buy rotors and pads from them direct from Italy since there is not a stocking warehouse in the states. If I had to guess the setup would likely be closer to $4,000-$4,500.00.

Any setup you decide to run needs to be designed to work with the fluid rates of the OEM master cylinder and ABS system, if you do not match the fluid rates then additional components may be needed only adding to the cost and complexity of the design. I have a CNC machinist that can cut your hats and mounting hardware if you find discs and calipers you want to try. Let me know if it is something you want to try and I will get you guys together.

Dave

 

[RYU]

Any setup you decide to run needs to be designed to work with the fluid rates of the OEM master cylinder and ABS system, if you do not match the fluid rates then additional components may be needed only adding to the cost and complexity of the design. I have a CNC machinist that can cut your hats and mounting hardware if you find discs and calipers you want to try. Let me know if it is something you want to try and I will get you guys together.

Dave

What Dave said ^^^

Also, let me add... I've seen many many people throw on different calipers from other cars to the NSX. To have work right it's simply not that easy most of the time. In addition to brake fluid volume there's also brake bias between front and rear. It can be done right but there's some decent engineering involved on your part @Madhatter10-6

 

[Stephen@NCAutoUSA]

I've explored this as well. I'm sure things can be done with enough time and effort but in the world where we live safety is a concern.

I bit the bullet and opted to go with stoptech's. They're proven. Although I will need to put together an e brake setup I've been told the brembo works out of the box. I'll pay nowadays for a piece of mind and proven results not to be the test guy.

 

[racer9x]

Sounds good, I would be interested, assuming that the factors mentioned above are addressed/taken into consideration making it a solid option, keep us posted with you're progress/exploration on this project!

 

[Madhatter10-6]

Thanks for the feedback so far!

Regarding the engineering involved I will not be shooting for 100% optimal track brakes that are perfectly balanced and designed for optimal course times. My goal is to drastically improve performance over what the OEM brakes can provide and not charge people an arm and leg during the process.

I am curious to see what the real world driving feel will be like with some of the options I am looking at. From playing with various setups on other components I have found a large difference in what formulas will say works vs what actually works in the real world.

 

[dablackgoku1234]

Such a kit already exists: D1 Spec

Front 4 pot 330mm and Rear 2 pot 330mm with ebrake solution for ~$1600

 

[Madhatter10-6]

Such a kit already exists: D1 Spec

Front 4 pot 330mm and Rear 2 pot 330mm with ebrake solution for ~$1600

link?

 

[HDA]

The next major shortcoming of the car in my opinion are the factory brakes. They are just god awful. I have been researching aftermarket kits Brembo, Stoptech, etc and while they make nice products they seem very overpriced....and the lack of an (affordable) ebrake is inexcusable.

let me understand: the problem with nsx brakes is that they look bad?

 

[Madhatter10-6]

let me understand: the problem with nsx brakes is that they look bad?

No sir...I am not sure how you got that they look bad from the above quote?

My major complaint with the OEM NA1 brakes is that they aren't good brakes....even by 90's standards. My supra brakes are worlds better than the NSX brakes and have a much better pedal feel. The NSX factory brakes are on very small rotors and don't provide a good mechanical leverage point.

And as a side note they are also very ugly

 

[HDA]

Lost in translation, I understood awful as ugly instead of really bad.

I have no complains about my NSX brakes, I think with fresh DOT and good pads they are enough given the vehicle weight and performance. But since yours is turbo'd I agree that you may want to upgrade.
I would just use the Brembo of the Subaru and Lancer Evolution, reason being that there is a decent offering in terms of pads and they made soooo many of those vehicles that parts are easy to find - something to keep in mind.

 

[Madhatter10-6]

Lost in translation, I understood awful as ugly instead of really bad.

I have no complains about my NSX brakes, I think with fresh DOT and good pads they are enough given the vehicle weight and performance. But since yours is turbo'd I agree that you may want to upgrade.
I would just use the Brembo of the Subaru and Lancer Evolution, reason being that there is a decent offering in terms of pads and they made soooo many of those vehicles that parts are easy to find - something to keep in mind.

Interesting....Ill start researching the Subaru / Lancer brakes. That seems to be exactly what I am looking for and I like that they are mass produced (ie affordable / easy to source) Thanks!

 

[heySkippy]

6) Branding. I would like the rotors to just say "Brembo" on them or nothing instead of mentioning the donor vehicle. This will just look cleaner.

Nothing would be my preference. It irritates me to pay big bucks to advertise for someone.

 

[rsm578]

interested. keep us posted

 

[Vanishing Point]

For a exclusively street driven NSX it would seem the best option is to upgrade your pads, flush and fill with a synthetic brake fluid and upgrade your brake lines.

 

[Coconut]

I think a kit consisting of 4-pot front/rear calipers, pads, and s/s brake lines would sell quite well. Not sure how the e-brake would be incorporated into it, but it would be nice to just upgrade the sliding pistons to fixed calipers. It'll look alot nicer and improve the pedal feel and possibly reduce brake-fade for autox. $2500-3000 should be doable, ~$500 per caliper, and $1000 should cover the custom brackets, s/s brake lines and pads.

 

[piran1]

Definitely applause for looking into a more cost-effective bbk. I did the pseudo NSX-R setup.
front: 91-96 calipers on 97+ brackets
Rear: 97+ calipers/brackets
Rotor: 97+ all around
Pads: your choice but I have Carbotech AX6 which are very good
Goodridge brake lines
Porsche dot4 Brake fluid
Front Downforce brake scoops
Removed all backing plates

 

[JMChristopher]

I am very interested in this. Something for performance street would be nice. I don't want to upgrade to big heavy wheels, so something with a nice looking caliper and slightly up sized rotor would be great.

 

[Madhatter10-6]

Thanks for all of the feedback on this. The current game plan is to knock out a prototype early 2016 if time permits and see how much of an obstacle this really is. If I end up pleased with the results I will post everything and try to sell a couple of kits.

 

[stuntman]

FYI:

91-96 NSX - 3,010lbs
Front: 40/36mm - 11.1" rotor
Rear: 42mm - 11.1" rotor

97+ NSX- 3,160lbs
Front: 40/34mm - 11.73" rotor
Rear: 48mm - 11.93" rotor

NSX Brembo "Lotus" front, 97+ rear - 3,160lbs - for worst case scenario
Front: 40/36mm - 13.0" rotor
Rear: 48mm - 11.93" rotor

MKIV Supra: 3,500lbs
Front: 43/43mm - 12.7" rotor
Rear: 40mm - 12.8" rotor

993 Turbo - 3,300lbs
Front: 44/36mm - 12.68" rotor
Rear: 36/30mm - 12.68" rotor

Viper GTS (Gen 2) - 3,375lbs
Front: 42/38mm - 13" rotor
Rear: 36mm (43mm for ABS) - 13" rotor

Evo X - 3,550lbs
Front: 46/40mm - 13.8" rotor
Rear: 40mm - 13.0" rotor


Analysis:

The 91-96 NSX's have a really small rear caliper (and a lot more front bias) while the 97+ have a much larger rear caliper.

The heavier the car, the more braking torque you need. The NSX is a light car and does not need as much braking torque to slow it down as much heavier cars like the Supra, Viper, or modern cars like the EVO.

After running the vehicle weight vs. brake torque (at 150psi of brake pressure): For every lb-ft of brake torque, here's the following lbs each car has to slow down:


NSX PFC Brakes: 8.15 lbs - at 3,010lbs
2015 Mustang GT: 8.20 lbs
NSX PFC Brakes: 8.55 lbs - at 3,160lbs for worst case scenario
NSX Brembo "Lotus" with 97+ rear - 9.20 lbs - at 3,160lbs for worst case scenario
EVO X: 9.31 lbs
993 Turbo: 9.36 lbs
Viper GTS (ABS): 9.84 lbs
Supra Turbo: 10.08 lbs
97+ NSX - 10.10 lbs
Viper GTS (No ABS): 11.14 lbs
91-96 NSX - 11.31 lbs


So, as far as braking performance goes, when you take the car's weight into consideration, the 97+ system is right there with the Supra and a front-only BBK far exceeds even a 993 turbo and puts the car into modern-car braking -note the 2015 Mustang and Evo X.


I understand the desire for a better looking brake system with 4-piston calipers all the way around, but as far as bang/buck goes, it's hard to beat a Brembo "lotus" or Stoptech front and 97+ rear, which does not have a E-brake problem.


0.02

 

[Stephen@NCAutoUSA]

FYI:

91-96 NSX - 3,010lbs
Front: 40/36mm - 11.1" rotor
Rear: 42mm - 11.1" rotor

97+ NSX- 3,160lbs
Front: 40/34mm - 11.73" rotor
Rear: 48mm - 11.93" rotor

NSX Brembo "Lotus" front, 97+ rear - 3,160lbs - for worst case scenario
Front: 40/36mm - 13.0" rotor
Rear: 48mm - 11.93" rotor

MKIV Supra: 3,500lbs
Front: 43/43mm - 12.7" rotor
Rear: 40mm - 12.8" rotor

993 Turbo - 3,300lbs
Front: 44/36mm - 12.68" rotor
Rear: 36/30mm - 12.68" rotor

Viper GTS (Gen 2) - 3,375lbs
Front: 42/38mm - 13" rotor
Rear: 36mm (43mm for ABS) - 13" rotor

Evo X - 3,550lbs
Front: 46/40mm - 13.8" rotor
Rear: 40mm - 13.0" rotor


Analysis:

The 91-96 NSX's have a really small rear caliper (and a lot more front bias) while the 97+ have a much larger rear caliper.

The heavier the car, the more braking torque you need. The NSX is a light car and does not need as much braking torque to slow it down as much heavier cars like the Supra, Viper, or modern cars like the EVO.

After running the vehicle weight vs. brake torque (at 150psi of brake pressure): For every lb-ft of brake torque, here's the following lbs each car has to slow down:


NSX PFC Brakes: 8.15 lbs - at 3,010lbs
2015 Mustang GT: 8.20 lbs
NSX PFC Brakes: 8.55 lbs - at 3,160lbs for worst case scenario
NSX Brembo "Lotus" with 97+ rear - 9.20 lbs - at 3,160lbs for worst case scenario
EVO X: 9.31 lbs
993 Turbo: 9.36 lbs
Viper GTS (ABS): 9.84 lbs
Supra Turbo: 10.08 lbs
97+ NSX - 10.10 lbs
Viper GTS (No ABS): 11.14 lbs
91-96 NSX - 11.31 lbs


So, as far as braking performance goes, when you take the car's weight into consideration, the 97+ system is right there with the Supra and a front-only BBK far exceeds even a 993 turbo and puts the car into modern-car braking -note the 2015 Mustang and Evo X.


I understand the desire for a better looking brake system with 4-piston calipers all the way around, but as far as bang/buck goes, it's hard to beat a Brembo "lotus" or Stoptech front and 97+ rear, which does not have a E-brake problem.


0.02

Billy what are your thoughts on the spoon calipers? I ended up not going that route but they always looked nice and look well made too because of the monobloc design I think.

 

[stuntman]

Billy what are your thoughts on the spoon calipers? I ended up not going that route but they always looked nice and look well made too because of the monobloc design I think.

I found the Spoon Calipers listed with 42.85mm and 38.18mm pistons and that they are a generic caliper that was not designed to be NSX-specific and is used on everything from TLs to S2000s.

While the Spoon calipers are called "Monoblocks", you have to consider how they are made. Since machining a true 'monoblock' is expensive, to bore out the holes for the pistons from inside the caliper, Spoon bore two holes from the back side of the caliper to make the holes for the pistons, then 'plugged' the holes on the back side of the caliper. This is sort of a cheater way to make a 'monoblock' or, some would say isn't a true "monoblock". I'm not sure how it affects performance or stiffness but either way it's not as good as a true monoblock, even IF it's superior to the stock sliding caliper design.

Having said that, The Spoon caliper shifts the brake bias forward 3-4% which is not good for 91-96 cars. On 97+ cars (or cars converted to 97+ rears and front rotors, the bias isn't terrible and it has a lot more braking torque, having to slow down only 9.17 lbs.

So on a stock 97+ front rotor, the spoon caliper generates similar torque as the 13" Brembo "Lotus" caliper, but does not have the added surface area to dissipate heat like the Brembo BBK has.

 

[Stephen@NCAutoUSA]

Ah good info. When I was looking at the calipers I did notice the boring and plugging.

 

[RYU]

I'm debating running a front only BBK but the 4 wheel BBK feels so good on my feet. It's like a silky blanket around my toes. hahaha