Graham Rahal Test Drive

[chrisn]

...and then I walk up with my double mocha venti frappacino and drop this science: If you were all at a track day with all fours cars and selected 10 random drivers from the intermediate group, none of whom had driven any of these models, to settle this bet then the average fastest lap across drivers after a single, say, 15 minute session for each car would be, from fastest to slowest:

NSX, R8, Turbo, 458.

NSX has linear power, best AWD and best go-fast electronics.

R8 is next because of NA responsiveness, mid-engine balance and conventional AWD

Then Turbo, with turbo lag/surge (yes, I know, not as bad as before, I have a VTG 997), and ass-heavy balance only partially offset with AWD

Last the 458: RWD and perhaps not in same league in terms of ultimate potential-- and would require more time/skill to approach those limits.

In any case, sounds like an awesome cars & coffee event.

 

[Superfluous]

I don't care about the magazine racing. All I care about is that, when I pull up to the red light in the right lane, and there is a car parked in the right lane ten feet past the intersection, and the driver of the M3/Mustang/WRX next to me looks over and shakes his head, I can mash the gas peddle when the light turns green and create ample space to move left before the parked car ahead.

I sound like a teenager. I'm just kidding . . . sort of. :wink:

 

[N Spec]

I'm enjoying the practical track humor of this thread :tongue:

 

[TomCat]

Nice, thanks. Bobby Rahal owns a few dealerships near me and I keep hoping I'll run into him when I stop by for annual inspections. The speeding up of the drone shots and that host Javier - same guy who rode with Ted in another video - what contest did he win to get to play an automotive journalist for a day?

Tell Bobby Rahal that TomCat says hi!

 

[fastaussie]

from fastest to slowest:

NSX, R8, Turbo, 458.

NSX has linear power, best AWD and best go-fast electronics.

R8 is next because of NA responsiveness, mid-engine balance and conventional AWD

Then Turbo, with turbo lag/surge (yes, I know, not as bad as before, I have a VTG 997), and ass-heavy balance only partially offset with AWD

Last the 458: RWD and perhaps not in same league in terms of ultimate potential-- and would require more time/skill to approach those limits.

what's your formula and reasoning for the NSX having the best electronics and AWD system?

 

[Hothonda]

991 Turbo lag has been a non issue for me.

Not the widow proverbial maker!

 

[chrisn]

I'm obviously just guessing, but my logic is that the NSX front wheels are not mechanically connected to the rear end or each other and are powered by instant and precise torque (positive or negative). This platform is inherently more flexible than the other AWD cars mentioned. Assume the software and tuning in not completely incompetence, the overall system should be better.

- - - Updated - - -

"Non issue" is not the same as "as good as" or "easier to master." Agree that you learn to anticipate the torque curve or any NA or FI car, but the new generation of "TQ fill" via EV is gonna always have inherent advantages (and inherent problems, like weight). Where it all nets out is the big mystery. We're just spitballing until we get real data.

 

[Superfluous]

991 Turbo lag has been a non issue for me.

Agreed. My 997TTs had very little lag.

Albeit minimal, the small amount of turbo lag in the TT Porsche produces a different feel upon WOT acceleration, as compared to the NSX (as described by reviewers). The TT Porsche has a palpable kick/jolt when the turbos spool. Although the time span between mashing the gas peddle and the turbo spooling jolt is minimal, it is nevertheless perceptible. Conversely, according to the descriptions from reviewers, the NSX does not have a similar jolt when the turbos spool. I assume that is because, during the brief period before the turbos spool, the NSX has more torque and forward pull than the TT Porsche, such that the change in force/speed resulting from the spooling of the turbos is less dramatic on the NSX. The NSX's acceleration is more linear, and more similar to a NA engine. Interestingly, one or more NSX reviewers expressed disappointment at the lack of a turbo spooling jolt in the NSX. Odd thing to be disappointed about given that the lack of a jolt is a manifestation of the additional initial torque/force.

 

[N Spec]

^This phenomenon is present in first gen NSX. I've had many Honda fans ride with me and say, when does the VTEC crossover? The torque is so smooth and broad on the first And second gen, that the perception of immediate acceleration or jolt from the shift of power is not really present in the NSX and they seemed to have emulated this high revving NA torque curve once again albeit two turbos having to be spooled.

I've had many ~300 hp friends say, "well my car feels faster and is thus faster." Coming from G37, 335i, 300ZX, MR2, etc. owners some stock and some modded. Then we would make a quick pull on the interstate or stoplight and they'd lose by a few car lengths to their surprise.

 

[fastaussie]

991 Turbo lag has been a non issue for me. Not the widow proverbial maker!

Agreed. My 997TTs had very little lag.

Albeit minimal, the small amount of turbo lag in the TT Porsche produces a different feel upon WOT acceleration, as compared to the NSX (as described by reviewers). The TT Porsche has a palpable kick/jolt when the turbos spool. Although the time span between mashing the gas peddle and the turbo spooling jolt is minimal, it is nevertheless perceptible. Conversely, according to the descriptions from reviewers, the NSX does not have a similar jolt when the turbos spool. I assume that is because, during the brief period before the turbos spool, the NSX has more torque and forward pull than the TT Porsche, such that the change in force/speed resulting from the spooling of the turbos is less dramatic on the NSX. The NSX's acceleration is more linear, and more similar to a NA engine. Interestingly, one or more NSX reviewers expressed disappointment at the lack of a turbo spooling jolt in the NSX. Odd thing to be disappointed about given that the lack of a jolt is a manifestation of the additional initial torque/force.

there is a very small amount of lag in the Porsche Turbo, but i'm fairly certain it's left there on purpose. when that car comes on boost, it's like the Millennium Falcon making the jump to lightspeed. it's exhilarating in a way that an NA car can never be, i wouldn't change a thing...

I'm obviously just guessing, but my logic is that the NSX front wheels are not mechanically connected to the rear end or each other and are powered by instant and precise torque (positive or negative). This platform is inherently more flexible than the other AWD cars mentioned. Assume the software and tuning in not completely incompetence, the overall system should be better.

the Audi R8 doesn't have torque vectoring, something the NSX does. but the Audi does have the ability to transfer 100% of its 610 horsepower to the front wheels if need be. that seems extremely flexible. the NSX has a 36 horsepower motor on each front wheel for a maximum of 72 horsepower to the front wheels. those motors are also ineffective after 125 mph i believe, at which point the NSX becomes a strictly rear wheel drive vehicle...

 

[chrisn]

the Audi does have the ability to transfer 100% of its 610 horsepower to the front wheels if need be. that seems extremely flexible. the NSX has a 36 horsepower motor on each front wheel for a maximum of 72 horsepower to the front wheels. those motors are also ineffective after 125 mph i believe, at which point the NSX becomes a strictly rear wheel drive vehicle...

Hmm. R8 may be able to used 100% of "available" torque to front wheels, but I don't think that would ever be anything remotely close to full system power. I'm struggling to think of a situation where you'd even want that (610HP output in a turn slow enough to benefit from AWD with rear end suddenly on ice patch).

On the NSX, I assume the front end was engineered to have near optimal maximum power for track situations (EV motors are pretty compact-- no need to under-spec it too much). Without a gearbox up front, EV motors don't like to spin too fast-- get very inefficient near max speed. It is sensible to put any remaining juice into the rear wheels (ICE and EV) above a certain speed. If you need AWD to pull around a >125MPH (!?!?!?!) turn then maybe the R8 would shine on that particular track (if it exists). I still stand by my (largely speculative) claim, that the NSX AWD system (and overall powertrain) will prove "better" measured by faster corner exit speeds despite heavier weight. On the flip side, it seems reasonable that on longer straights, despite entry speed advantage of NSX, physics could allow the R8v10+ v2 to catch up.

- - - Updated - - -

there is a very small amount of lag in the Porsche Turbo, but i'm fairly certain it's left there on purpose. when that car comes on boost, it's like the Millennium Falcon making the jump to lightspeed. it's exhilarating in a way that an NA car can never be, i wouldn't change a thing...

100% agreed. My 997TT with EVOMS EVT700 still shocks passengers when entering warp speed.

 

[fastaussie]

Hmm. R8 may be able to used 100% of "available" torque to front wheels, but I don't think that would ever be anything remotely close to full system power. I'm struggling to think of a situation where you'd even want that (610HP output in a turn slow enough to benefit from AWD with rear end suddenly on ice patch).

On the NSX, I assume the front end was engineered to have near optimal maximum power for track situations (EV motors are pretty compact-- no need to under-spec it too much). Without a gearbox up front, EV motors don't like to spin too fast-- get very inefficient near max speed. It is sensible to put any remaining juice into the rear wheels (ICE and EV) above a certain speed. If you need AWD to pull around a >125MPH (!?!?!?!) turn then maybe the R8 would shine on that particular track (if it exists). I still stand by my (largely speculative) claim, that the NSX AWD system (and overall powertrain) will prove "better" measured by faster corner exit speeds despite heavier weight. On the flip side, it seems reasonable that on longer straights, despite entry speed advantage of NSX, physics could allow the R8v10+ v2 to catch up.

as you said, all very speculative...

 

[sadlerau]

Having tracked a very under engined SH-AWD chassis, I think we are in for a very pleasant surprise when it comes to track numbers.

Think R35 GTR, much better chassis, more sophisticated AWD system and less turbo lag. Could be telling.

 

[JD Cross]

...the NSX has a 36 horsepower motor on each front wheel for a maximum of 72 horsepower to the front wheels. those motors are also ineffective after 125 mph i believe, at which point the NSX becomes a strictly rear wheel drive vehicle...

Perhaps the 36 hp on each wheel is misleading.
A Prius with a 67 hp electric motor produces 295 ft lbs of torque @ 1200-1540 rpm.
That might suggest an NSX with 72 total hp might produce 315 ft lb of torque at low rpm to the front wheels.

An R8 V10 Plus produces about 400 ft lbs from the ICE at 6500 rpm for all the wheels

It would seem the NSX coming out of a corner would have a considerable front wheel torque advantage over the V10 unless the Audi shifted all it's torque to the front wheels.
And while the Audi is in super power FWD, the NSX still has its ICE and electric motor driving the rear wheels alone.
I think the NSX will out corner the R8.

At the top end where presumably the NSX electric motors are freewheeling and speed is determined by ICE power and drag alone the R8 with 610 hp may drive on by.
But the NSX is still listed with a 191 mph top end so maybe it's a lot more slippery than we think and doesn't need 610 hp to go fast.

 

[fastaussie]

Perhaps the 36 hp on each wheel is misleading.
A Prius with a 67 hp electric motor produces 295 ft lbs of torque @ 1200-1540 rpm.
That might suggest an NSX with 72 total hp might produce 315 ft lb of torque at low rpm to the front wheels.

hard to say since a lot is still unknown about this car? one of these days, surely we will have actual statistics and instrumented testing results?!

as for the bow electricity, it's 36 horsepower, or 54 ft. lbs. of torque per electric engine, per front wheel.

so a maximum front wheel drive torque figure of 108 ft. lbs., according to the numbers given by Acura. that number would suggest about 25% maximum of the total torque number to the front wheels, or a little under 15% maximum output horsepower to the front. so the NSX seems very rear biased with its power output.

An R8 V10 Plus produces about 400 ft lbs from the ICE at 6500 rpm for all the wheels

It would seem the NSX coming out of a corner would have a considerable front wheel torque advantage over the V10 unless the Audi shifted all it's torque to the front wheels.
And while the Audi is in super power FWD, the NSX still has its ICE and electric motor driving the rear wheels alone.
I think the NSX will out corner the R8.

At the top end where presumably the NSX electric motors are freewheeling and speed is determined by ICE power and drag alone the R8 with 610 hp may drive on by.
But the NSX is still listed with a 191 mph top end so maybe it's a lot more slippery than we think and doesn't need 610 hp to go fast.

top speed is more about slippery aerodynamics than brute power. a Ferrari F430 was able to go 196 miles an hour over a decade ago with less than 500 horsepower.

once again, this is all highly speculative. but i love that some Primers are super convinced that the NSX will beat everything else out there without any actual idea why... :biggrin:

 

[JD Cross]

....once again, this is all highly speculative. but i love that some Primers are super convinced that the NSX will beat everything else out there without any actual idea why... :biggrin:

I doubt the NSX will beat everything else
However I do think the combination of its power, torque, brakes, and transmission will provide advantages in certain situations.
As you say it's all speculation and time will tell.

One thing I'm pretty sure of is the value offered by the NSX will be tough to beat.

 

[chrisn]

One thing I'm pretty sure of is the value offered by the NSX will be tough to beat.

If you mean value in terms of price per performance (or absolute performance), I think the C7 Z06 will be hard for it to beat apart from 0-60, dues to NSX AWD.

More holistically, I agree with you-- especially if quality and reliability are up to Honda standards.

 

[JD Cross]

If you mean value in terms of price per performance (or absolute performance), I think the C7 Z06 will be hard for it to beat apart from 0-60, dues to NSX AWD.

I'm thinking of value not in terms of dollars per 0-60 times but the amount of R&D, technology, build quality, reliability, innovation, performance etc.
I think the NSX is a lot of car for the money.
Much like the first generation when it was launched.

 

[Hothonda]

Whenever the new NSX topic comes up in forums I frequent (usual competing brands) consensus is
that it's a good looking, quality & apparently competent car, but still a Honda.

Number 1 negative @ approaching $200K, "it's overpriced" - not a little, but a lot
and interest level w/readers appears commensurate - like "it will
be interesting to see how it stacks up, but it's still a Honda" (number 2 negative).

Pretty much the same reaction I received with my Gen 1 NSX(s).

 

[Superfluous]

I doubt the NSX will beat everything else

I am not expecting the NSX to "beat everything else." Rather, I am expecting the NSX to either be very close to, equal or surpass the performance of its competitors (Turbo Porsche and R8). Whether the NSX is close to, equals or surpasses its competitors will depend on the individual performance metrics.

If you mean value in terms of price per performance (or absolute performance), I think the C7 Z06 will be hard for it to beat

The C7 ZO6 is undeniably the bang for the buck leader in super car performance. The GT-R is not far behind.

I think the NSX is a lot of car for the money.

Completely agree.

Whenever the new NSX topic comes up in forums I frequent (usual competing brands) consensus is that it's a good looking, quality & apparently competent car, but still a Honda. . . . it's still a Honda" (number 2 negative). . . . Pretty much the same reaction I received with my Gen 1 NSX(s).

Meanwhile, the resale for the Gen 1 "its just a Honda" blows away the resale for the more prestigious Porsches (with few exceptions).

They said the same thing about the GT-R . . . "its just a Nissan." What they were really saying is: "Damn, that superior engineered Nissan just annihilated my much more expensive _______, . . . . yeah, but its just a Nissan."

 

[Hothonda]

Meanwhile, the resale for the Gen 1 "its just a Honda" blows away the resale for the more prestigious Porsches (with few exceptions).

They said the same thing about the GT-R . . . "its just a Nissan." What they were really saying is: "Damn, that superior engineered Nissan just annihilated my much more expensive _______, . . . . yeah, but its just a Nissan."

You're leaving out one little detail.....$200K (in my case on the NSX config site w/TTL in WA State) about $208K.

Good friend in the PNW purchased a slightly used 1992 in 1994 for $41K.....recently offered $55K. He'll only need another $153K for a new NSX.

Additionally compare the 1994 Honda resale to the equiv 1994 993 air cooled 911 Porsche.....

 

[JD Cross]

Meanwhile, the resale for the Gen 1 "its just a Honda" blows away the resale for the more prestigious Porsches (with few exceptions).
They said the same thing about the GT-R . . . "its just a Nissan." What they were really saying is: "Damn, that superior engineered Nissan just annihilated my much more expensive _______, . . . . yeah, but its just a Nissan."

Ah yes, the always lurking "marque superiority".
Very difficult, if not impossible for Honda, to overcome its everyman image compared to Porsche, Ferrari and so on.

However if Honda can manage to keep supply very tight and an image of exclusivity is retained there could be a sort of oxymoron develop.
A Japanese car that's hard to buy?
Nothing adds to cachet more than not being able to get something.

Meantime if one is buying a car not a marque, the NSX looks like a gem.

 

[Benjamite777]

I do not view that the NSX is a “Honda” as a negative. It is true that Honda is not a marquee that specializes in supercars for its bottom line, but that doesn’t mean that they can’t build w/ the best of them. The talent pool is there for Honda, especially when they can leverage their experience from building motorcycles to jets, that says a lot about talent. So yes, the new NSX is a Honda, but it’s my $200k Honda. If the new NSX had a Ferrari or a Lamborghini badge next to its name, then I am certain some people will not view it as “overpriced” but rather a “bargain”. I am happy w/ the Acura badge because I know I am getting a great deal, because had this car come from Ferrari, I wouldn’t be able to afford it.

 

[Hothonda]

I do not view that the NSX is a “Honda” as a negative. It is true that Honda is not a marquee that specializes in supercars for its bottom line, but that doesn’t mean that they can’t build w/ the best of them. The talent pool is there for Honda, especially when they can leverage their experience from building motorcycles to jets, that says a lot about talent. So yes, the new NSX is a Honda, but it’s my $200k Honda. If the new NSX had a Ferrari or a Lamborghini badge next to its name, then I am certain some people will not view it as “overpriced” but rather a “bargain”. I am happy w/ the Acura badge because I know I am getting a great deal, because had this car come from Ferrari, I wouldn’t be able to afford it.

Agree with you - owned many Hondas (Acura) , but it takes a certain amount individuality to pony up $200K on a Honda.

Even back in 2005 my final NSX had a MSRP of $89,765. Got lots of eyebrow raising from enthusiast friends on that.....

 

[Superfluous]

The NSX with a Ferrari badge would cost more than twice as much.

With my GT-R, the only "marque superiority" I experienced was from an occasional Ferrari or Lambo owner. For example, my neighbor, who collects Ferraris and Lambos, including an Enzo and a LaFerrari, openly mocked my GT-R. The vast, vast majority of people were overtly complimentary of the GT-R, without the slightest notion of "marque superiority." In fact, my GT-R received far, far more positive attention and comments as compared to my 996TT and 997TTs. The one exception was women -- they preferred the Porsches. On the other hand, my wife -- who much preferred my 997TTs over my GT-R, and has a "marque superiority" streak in her -- loves the NSX, and prefers it over the 991TT, R8 and MB GTS. The NSX is much better looking than the GT-R and looks the part of a supercar. This will likely counter-act some of the "marque superiority" (not all, but some).