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Gulf War 2

Joined
10 January 2003
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http://www.idleworm.com/nws/2002/11/iraq2.shtml And scarily close to how the situation may just play out...
Its a very different situation this time around because rather than just pushing the Iraqis back beyond a certain point,America really wants to invade Iraq...

If you had the choice between having your country invaded and destroyed,or using chemical weapons (or whatever else is in your arsenal) to stop it happening,which would you choose ?

That is why i think any invasion of Iraq is insane...


[This message has been edited by HOLLYWOOD (edited 01 February 2003).]
 
So...Hollywood...

Where do YOU think all the missing Anthrax, Botulism, etc went?

Perhaps you believe that Saddam wouldn't cheerfully give those materials to the terrorist community?

I know this.

If and when something bad happens, the same people (like you) who are now wrongly criticizing Bush for rushing into a war, will then criticize him for not doing enough.

-J
 
Originally posted by HOLLYWOOD:
That is why i think any invasion of Iraq is insane...

First, this attitude is exactly the sort of capitulation that they are looking for. It is exaclty why they violate international agreements and make and use those types of weapons. Your stance is the equivalent of the police saying "we've decided not to go arrest those criminals - they might have guns."

Seondly, we tried sanctions - they didn't work. We had them sign an agreement to dispose and account for them - it didn't work. They repeatedly break every agreement and impeed the UN efforts to make them conform ('no fly' zone, etc.)

What is your solution? Don't just tell us what the wrong move is - impress us. Do something constructive. Step up to the plate and tell us what WILL work.

[This message has been edited by David (edited 01 February 2003).]
 
David. How can we win a war against people with a mind set such as this? We may win the battle but not the war. BAGHDAD (Reuters) - Immediate popular reaction in Baghdad on Saturday to the loss of the U.S. space shuttle Columbia and its seven-member crew -- including the first Israeli in space -- was that it was God's retribution.

"We are happy that it broke up," government employee Abdul Jabbar al-Quraishi said.

"God wants to show that his might is greater than the Americans. They have encroached on our country. God is avenging us," he said.


[This message has been edited by HOLLYWOOD (edited 01 February 2003).]
 
Yeah, and there was a time when the Nazi rhetoric was loud and unified too.

Thank god wiser people back then didn't think like you.

So, where did all that Anthrax and Botulinin toxin go?

I guess, 9/11 wasn't damaging or vile enough for some people to understand that we need to take pro-active measure to ensure our security.
 
Jimbo...I am stating only that I hate War.I was in a war four years that may explains my feelings and by the way my son was killed in the last Gulf War. How would you feel? The thing that bugs me are the people who have an opinion on the up comming war and think that "Hans Blix and the weapons inspectors" are a band.
Originally posted by Jimbo:
Yeah, and there was a time when the Nazi rhetoric was loud and unified too.

Thank god wiser people back then didn't think like you.

So, where did all that Anthrax and Botulinin toxin go?

I guess, 9/11 wasn't damaging or vile enough for some people to understand that we need to take pro-active measure to ensure our security.
 
Hollywood,

I am sorry for your loss. I lost friends in 9/11 too.

War is terrible. There is no doubt of that.

But there are some things worse than war.

I keep hearing about how we're (Bush) rushing into war with Iraq. It's been 12 years. The current administration doesn't seem to be rushing into anything at all. It would seem that we're giving Iraq every possible chance to disarm and to come clean.

Make no mistake my friend. There are countries, people and regimes that want to destroy this country and our way of life.

They will think nothing of killing thousands or millions of American citizens if only they had the means.

You hate war?

Well, I hate needless death. And there's no doubt that the missing Anthrax, Botulinin, etc could very easily find its way into this country delivered by any one of those rogue groups who hate us.

At some point the driving factor has to be how to minimize the loss of life. At what point does the risk of action outweigh the risk of not acting.

If you go back in history there were many people who hated war and did not want us to get involved in the war against Hitler. There were even those who didn't want us to respond after were attacked at Pearl Harbor.

Thank god we didn't listen to those voices.

-Jim
 
I understand what you are saying there are so much mixed emotion in our country today I am really getting tired of looking over my sholder. I am not lambasting the pres don't get me wrong I was just putting out some food for thought and I know all of us have had plenty of that these days.I don't know about you but some days I don't know If I should scratch my watch or wind my ass. Ha
Originally posted by Jimbo:
Hollywood,

I am sorry for your loss. I lost friends in 9/11 too.

War is terrible. There is no doubt of that.

But there are some things worse than war.

I keep hearing about how we're (Bush) rushing into war with Iraq. It's been 12 years. The current administration doesn't seem to be rushing into anything at all. It would seem that we're giving Iraq every possible chance to disarm and to come clean.

Make no mistake my friend. There are countries, people and regimes that want to destroy this country and our way of life.

They will think nothing of killing thousands or millions of American citizens if only they had the means.

You hate war?

Well, I hate needless death. And there's no doubt that the missing Anthrax, Botulinin, etc could very easily find its way into this country delivered by any one of those rogue groups who hate us.

At some point the driving factor has to be how to minimize the loss of life. At what point does the risk of action outweigh the risk of not acting.

If you go back in history there were many people who hated war and did not want us to get involved in the war against Hitler. There were even those who didn't want us to respond after were attacked at Pearl Harbor.

Thank god we didn't listen to those voices.

-Jim
 
Huh?

First you say that an invasion of Iraq is insane...

And then when someone tries to debate the point you seem to shy away and claim you were just putting out food for thought. And what does the "I am really getting tired of looking over my sholder" mean?

If you want to put out these kind of statements and discuss this topic fine, but at least try to offer a cogent and reasoned point of view.

-Jim
 
If you had to fly on the average three times a week you would start paying attention of your surroundings also.Yes I still say its insane but I trust our Pres will hopefully make the right decision.
Originally posted by Jimbo:
Huh?

First you say that an invasion of Iraq is insane...

And then when someone tries to debate the point you seem to shy away and claim you were just putting out food for thought. And what does the "I am really getting tired of looking over my sholder" mean?

If you want to put out these kind of statements and discuss this topic fine, but at least try to offer a cogent and reasoned point of view.

-Jim
 
Here's a fascinating article...

http://www.nationalreview.com/hanson/hanson092701.shtml

It shows me that nothing much changes. Even after 60 odd years.

Even after the day we were viciously attacked at Pearl Harbor there were no shortage of apologists and handwringing. For example...

"...Secretary of State Cordell Hull, however, this morning cautioned the nation about such "jingoism." He warned, "The last thing we want is another Maine or Lusitania. We wouldn't want to start something like a Second World War and ruin the real progress in Japanese-American relations over the last few years."

Simply amazing. After such a dastardly attack there were people concerned that we shouldn't do anything in response to damage our relations with Japan! Heaven forbid!

If you read the article you'll also see people who didn't want to act against the Japanese because it might hurt our economy (i.e. Morgenthau).

And of course, there were the leftists in the arts community (just like today) who said we shouldn't do anything in response to the Japanese as well.

If there were people on December 8, 1941 who thought we shouldn't do anything in response to the attack at Pearl Harbor, then it's certainly no surprise to see that we now have individuals who feel the same way about Iraq.
 
Seeing the parallels on this subject and acknowledging your convictions makes me wonder why you are driving a Jap car.
Originally posted by Jimbo:
Here's a fascinating article...

http://www.nationalreview.com/hanson/hanson092701.shtml

It shows me that nothing much changes. Even after 60 odd years.

Even after the day we were viciously attacked at Pearl Harbor there were no shortage of apologists and handwringing. For example...

"...Secretary of State Cordell Hull, however, this morning cautioned the nation about such "jingoism." He warned, "The last thing we want is another Maine or Lusitania. We wouldn't want to start something like a Second World War and ruin the real progress in Japanese-American relations over the last few years."

Simply amazing. After such a dastardly attack there were people concerned that we shouldn't do anything in response to damage our relations with Japan! Heaven forbid!

If you read the article you'll also see people who didn't want to act against the Japanese because it might hurt our economy (i.e. Morgenthau).

And of course, there were the leftists in the arts community (just like today) who said we shouldn't do anything in response to the Japanese as well.

If there were people on December 8, 1941 who thought we shouldn't do anything in response to the attack at Pearl Harbor, then it's certainly no surprise to see that we now have individuals who feel the same way about Iraq.
 
Hollywood,

Excuse me?!

Seeing the parallels on this subject and acknowledging your convictions makes me wonder why you are driving a Jap car

Are you just flamebaiting or do you really believe the words you write?

As if I had to explain...

Yes, I do think we were justified in our response to the Japanese after Pearl Harbor.

However, I hold no grudge against the Japanese people. In case you hadn't heard, the war was over in August of 1945.

And what any of this has to do with my purchasing habits and admiration of Honda products is far beyond me.

(By the way, the term "Jap" is considered to be derogatory by many people.)
 
Hollywood, Excuse me Also. Just so you know, You can leave Auschwratz and Warsaw, Just for your Info.

------------------
"So your Honda Civic has 1.6 Litres, Yet my Mountain Dew bottle has 2 Litres."
 
I'm all for giving Iraq a second chance, it's the third through 77th (last I heard) chance that bother me.

It really burns me that a useless waste of human flesh like Edward M. (bought his way out of intoxication manlaughter) Kennedy can put out a press release (during the State of the Union Address) saying that the President is "rushing" into conflict with Iraq -- 12 years and 77 UN resolutions later, we've still got an unstable individual over there with countless weapons of mass destruction.
 
oh man... not another flame war about Iraq...
frown.gif
 
Please spare me. Dont you understand Power and Money that is the bottem line.
Originally posted by NSXism
frown.gif
750 words)

by Richard N. Draheim, Jr.


Richard Draheim is a policy analyst and speaker. He is a featured columnist for The Dallas Libertarian Post.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Why has Presidential candidate George W. Bush been able to raise uncounted tens of millions of dollars? It can't be because of his positions on the issues; he has scrupulously avoided taking many. It can't be because of his knowledge of world events; he thinks being asked such questions is a trick." (He will embarrassingly lie, saying that he knows the answer to a question, and half a sentence later admit that he doesn't.)

No, George "I'm No Longer Drunk" Bush's support is because the Bush family fortune is old, and it's big, and comes from a century old alliance with the most powerful interests on Wall Street and in industry. Worse, part of Dub-a-Ya's money comes from grandfather Prescott Bush's financial alliance with the Nazis.

On October 20, 1942, the US Alien Property Custodian, under the "Trading With the Enemy Act," seized the shares of the Union Banking Corporation (UBC), of which Prescott Bush was a director and shareholder. The largest shareholder was E. Roland Harriman. (Bush was also the managing partner of Brown Brothers Harriman, a leading Wall Street investment firm.)

The UBC was established to send American capital to Germany to finance the reorganization of its industry under the Nazis. Their leading German partner was the notorious Nazi industrialist Fritz Thyssen, who wrote a book admitting much of this called "I Paid Hitler."

Among the companies financed was the Silesian-American Corporation, which was also managed by Prescott Bush, and by his father-in-law George Herbert Walker, who supplied Dub-a-Ya with his name. The company was vital in supplying coal to the Nazi war industry. It too was seized as a Nazi-front on November 17, 1942. The largest company Bush's UBC helped finance was the German Steel Trust, responsible for between one-third and one-half of Nazi iron and explosives.

Prescott Bush was also a director of the Harriman Fifteen Corporation, (this one owned largely by Roland's brother, Averell Harriman), which owned about a third of the Consolidated Silesian Steel Corporation, the rest owned by Friedrich Flick, (a member of Himmler's "Circle of Friends" who donated to the S.S.).

Republican Presidential candidate Bush's great-grandfather, Bert Walker, helped organize the Harriman investment in the Hamburg-America Line of ships, of which grandfather Prescott became a director. It was seized on August 28, 1942 because it was used to give free passage to Nazi propaganda and propagandists, and had earlier shipped guns to the Nazi's private armies to assist their takeover of Germany.

Further examples would be more tedious than shocking. But, given these evil financial dealings, how did Prescott later become a Republican Senator, and George H.W. become President? Well,the two leading attorneys for these Bush-Harriman-Nazi deals were John Foster Dulles, later Secretary of State under Eisenhower, and Allen Dulles, future head of the CIA.

Prescott's father, Samuel P. Bush, owned Buckeye Steel Castings Co. which made parts for the Harriman brothers' father's (E.H. Harriman) railroads. Harriman's financing for the railroads came largely from William Rockefeller. These shipped the oil of his brother John D. Rockefeller, the founder of Standard Oil. (This was the origin of the two Georges' involvement in the oil business.)

Samuel Bush became a leader in President Woodrow Wilson's "War Socialism" as director of small armaments and ammunition on the War Industries Board (which set up coercive price-fixing cartels over American industry during World War I). There, Bush assisted Percy Rockefeller (son of William) in his takeover of small arms manufacturers.

The elder George Bush continued the family tradition of support for totalitarian governments by supporting the Communist Chinese in the UN, and by directly aiding its military as President.

Will the younger George Bush continue to support big government, or will he support free markets? His first political act was a tax increase to subsidize his baseball stadium. When libertarians and conservative Republicans were opposing the bailout of American banks that loaned money to the Mexican government, the Texas Governor supported it, because of his connections to those Wall Street Banks.

This is in keeping with the actual history of the Republican Party. It was founded in the 1850's explicitly as the party of high taxes to subsidize politically connected businesses, (then known as "internal improvements"). All Republican Presidents in the last fifty years have continued to increase the size of the government, and claims of support for free markets and lowered taxes are mere rhetorical cover. Texas Governor George Bush will continue that tradition.


Hollywood, Excuse me Also. Just so you know, You can leave Auschwratz and Warsaw, Just for your Info.

 
Yeah, just as I thought.

A flamebaiting troll.

BuhBye.
 
Originally posted by Jimbo:
Yeah, just as I thoug






Yeah whatever I'm just trying to understand American foreign policy. To me it's like oil-painting on a trampoline, but makes less sense. I'm not sure anybody could do it--not even if you took St. Augustine and Jimmy the Greek and Carl Friedrichs Gauss and wired them together in parallel.

It seems that we're going to blow up Iraq. Some folk will call it a war, but it'll be more like drowning a litter of puppies. Iraq is a primitive country and hasn't got a chance. That's convenient, and lots of fun, but it ain't war.

Now, understand: I'm patriotic, and believe in blowing up as many people as possible, wherever we can find them. But…why Iraq? It's mysterious. Sure, Hussein is a good, serviceable, every-day sort of monster and ought to be shot. So are about half the rulers in the world. Why this one? Bobby Mugabe needs it more, I reckon. Have we thought about Zaire?

Explain it to me. A ratpack of Saudis blew up New York, so we're going to wreck Iraq. We're going to do it because Hussein has Weapons of Mass Destruction, except that he doesn't, as far as anyone can tell. The more he doesn't have them, the more we want to blow him up because he does, or doesn't, or would if he did. Maybe.

I don't understand Weapons of Mass Destruction either. Actually, I do. They're a PR package, nice ribbon, pretty wrapping paper, but with nothing inside, to make it sound like we have a reason for attacking. Americans fortunately don't distinguish between a bumper sticker and a policy.

Now, if Iraq had nuclear weapons, blowing them up might be reasonable. But it doesn't. I don't care whether it has chemical weapons, and if it has smallpox, bombing won't help. So why do it? To grab the oil? Make the world safe for Israel? Historical codpiece for George? What's the scam, really?

It never stops. We're always bombing, invading, meddling, or embargoing. Nobody else does. Grenada, the Philippines, Panama, Vietnam, Cambodia, Afghanistan twice, Laos, Lebanon twice, Iraq almost twice, Yemen, Angola, Kosovo, Cuba, Libya. We're maybe about to get into a war with North Korea. In fact we have troops there as a tripwire, to be sure we get involved. What could be a better plan?

Why? Why always us? Can't we just, you know, spend an occasional Saturday night at home? North Korea is South Korea's problem, not ours, and South Korea is an industrial power. If it wants to defend itself, fine. If it doesn't, I don't care. Is Japan upset about North Korea? Then let Japan do something about it. Why are we always the International Mother?

What possible reason did we have for bombing Yugoslavia? Last I heard, Yugoslavia was in Europe. Granted, I haven't looked for a while. Maybe it moved to Mississippi or the outskirts of Detroit. Continental drift is like that. But if it's in Europe, I say it's Europe's problem. Let them bomb Yugoslavia till it squeaks. Or not. Why do I care? It's time Europe learned to diaper itself.

For that matter, why do we have troops in Europe? I don't get it. NATO was supposed to fight the Soviet Union, I thought, which we don't have one of.

Could we stop meddling for even a week? We're in Colombia and Mexico and Peru and God knows where because these folk work in the drug trade, and we have A Drug Problem. We have a drug problem because Americans want drugs. It's not Colombia's problem. It's our problem. Why don't we leave Colombia the hell alone?

Think about it. Suppose a Colombian crept up to you in a raincoat, peering around furtively, and whispered, "Hey, Meester, wanna buy some really good polio virus? Great stuff. You'll never walk again. Iron lung, guaranteed. Five bucks."

You would probably indicate that you didn't really need any polio just now. The Colombian would run off and starve, or jump his visa and get a job in construction. You can't sell what people won't buy. It's an economic law. (Unless you're the federal government, which consists of the compulsory sale of unwanted services. But Colombia isn't.)

Americans love drugs. Middle-schoolers through assisted living, black, white, blue collar, guttural lawyers in pricey turtle-neck sweaters, funny-looking urbanites, suburbanites with the little bag in the closet, country boys cutting ditchweed, growing hydroponic, cooking that righteous crank.

It's one of the biggest businesses in America. We'll pay any price, risk jail, do anything for our drugs. The cartel is just a service industry. Half the country wants them, and the other half doesn't have to take them. Why do we expect other countries to let us bomb their peasants to solve our problem?

If we have to poke our nose everywhere, could we at least stop being the Moral Nanny?

It's embarrassing. Europe fought world wars to get the Germans off its back. We fought The War to End All War, and then to Make the World Safe for Democracy. The Soviet Union was the Evil Empire, and now Iraq and Korea are the Axes of Evil.

Why are we embargoing Cuba? When the Soviets wanted to put runways and missiles there, it made sense. Now we're making life miserable for perfectly decent Cubans because we don't like that tiresome gas bag with the beard. Yes, I know. We're rally doing it because Castro runs an oppressive communist tyranny. Like China, with whom we trade like starving encyclopedia salesmen. Consistency and churchy moralism go so well together.

I give up. It's beyond me.



A flamebaiting troll.

BuhBye.



[This message has been edited by HOLLYWOOD (edited 02 February 2003).]
 
I was in the first Gulf War. Until Saddam tells us where the chemical warfare is, we have to go in and overthrow him. That shit is going to wind up in the hands of terrorists. You thought that 9/11 was bad??? Imagine someone dropping a few ML's of Anthrax in a ballpark or a ventalation system in a mall.

There are alot of things that people don't realize. The chemicals are more dangerous than a plane. I really feel sorry for the people of Iraq who have to go through another war because of a few people. I hope we get Saddam and not punish the people of Iraq for his stupidity.

I totally agree with Jim...
 
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