Health Reform Bill.........

[Jimbo]

The cynic in me says there's a reason that the fine is relatively low so as to allow this practice.

The Obama admin wants people to do just this. If rates go thru the roof because of it, then they win because people will demand public option or single payer. Or, insurance companies will go out of business because they can't afford the increased cost.

It's a win-win for the Dems to have the fines low. This is a long-term struggle for them and the end goal is/was always single payer government run health care.

 

[steveny]

The cynic in me says there's a reason that the fine is relatively low so as to allow this practice.

The Obama admin wants people to do just this. If rates go thru the roof because of it, then they win because people will demand public option or single payer. Or, insurance companies will go out of business because they can't afford the increased cost.

It's a win-win for the Dems to have the fines low. This is a long-term struggle for them and the end goal is/was always single payer government run health care.

Well whoa wait a minute the fines aren't going to go to the insurance companies?

 

[swerve2007]

in all honesty there should be 2 healthcare systems- one private and one federal. that way you get the care you pay for and 'they' get the care they pay for (or not).
my 'liberal rant' was targeted at showing that it is pretty much impossible to satisfy both sides with a single approach and not sentence people to death even if they 'deserve' it. i suspect that such scenario will eventually establish itself when doctors / hospitals will not take medicare / medicaid payments and those patients will gravitate toward county / city medical centers.

 

[DocL]

in all honesty there should be 2 healthcare systems- one private and one federal. that way you get the care you pay for and 'they' get the care they pay for (or not)...

We already have a system like that. It's called fee for service(FFS), insurance, or medicaid.

 

[swerve2007]

We already have a system like that. It's called fee for service(FFS), insurance, or medicaid.

it is not what i had in mind- i mean a total separation of services where there would be no admission at all and no services unless you had coverage- that way the shortcomings of one side would not affect the other, if you have 'free' government coverage then you get what the feds are able to provide you at 'government hospital'. obviously this is all an utopian idea.

 

[docjohn]

lets not forget workers comp...thats a real beauty...no abuse there

 

[Jimbo]

in all honesty there should be 2 healthcare systems- one private and one federal. that way you get the care you pay for and 'they' get the care they pay for (or not).
my 'liberal rant' was targeted at showing that it is pretty much impossible to satisfy both sides with a single approach and not sentence people to death even if they 'deserve' it. i suspect that such scenario will eventually establish itself when doctors / hospitals will not take medicare / medicaid payments and those patients will gravitate toward county / city medical centers.

Swerve,

I would say that we already had/have such a system and I would also say that unlike the current Obamacare plan, people would have been more willing to look at changes to the current system. For example, instead of some new trillion dollar government institution, why not fix Medicaid?

Of course the problem with a separate Fed health care system is that could compete with private insurance so it would have to be done in such a way to prevent this.

 

[swerve2007]

yes, i understand that in reality there are 2 parallel systems.
the point i am trying to make is for that to really work, those 2 systems would have to be completely independent of each other- if you have private healthcare you go to the private institution with all the perks and 'best care' you can afford. if you have 'federal' coverage, you are only accepted by federal institutions, not private, and the level of care corresponds to what you can afford. cruel? maybe but it beats people dying on the doorstep or taxpayers paying for the 'losers'.
no matter how we look at it, i still think that we are paying for lack of attention to the issue over the last few decades and the extreme democratic approach is directly proportionate to republican response. like i said 'we' had a chance to do it 'our' way, we didn't and we are paying for it.

 

[swerve2007]

lets not forget workers comp...thats a real beauty...no abuse there

no kidding. i guess the more 'humane' your system is the more opportunity for abuse exist. in reality, like steveny points out, you can't make anyone do the right thing.

 

[steveny]

it is not what i had in mind- i mean a total separation of services where there would be no admission at all and no services unless you had coverage- that way the shortcomings of one side would not affect the other, if you have 'free' government coverage then you get what the feds are able to provide you at 'government hospital'. obviously this is all an utopian idea.

Something that actually rewards those who are productive and punishishes those who are deadbeats?


Someone would have to choose between having ten kids and one kid? Edit, and they better correctly raise kids that they do have because those kids will be taking care of them when the parents are old.

So people who are really productive could exit early and open up positions for others who also want to be productive?

Sounds like a plan to me.

 

[steveny]

Of course the problem with a separate Fed health care system is that could compete with private insurance so it would have to be done in such a way to prevent this.

Kinda like the post office and UPS. I not sure if I have ever seen registrations and license plates on USPS vehicles but I know I have seen them on FEDEX and UPS trucks. Which one makes a profit AND has additional expenses?

 

[steveny]

no kidding. i guess the more 'humane' your system is the more opportunity for abuse exist. in reality, like steveny points out, you can't make anyone do the right thing.

You can make people do the right thing it just may not be in a kind way (humane).

 

[swerve2007]

I think the bill has a couple of positive points. The fact that an insurance company can't deny your care due to a preexisting illness is a good thing IMHO. Most people switch jobs and insurance companies in their lifetime so having a preexisting illness could be potentially catastrophic. Other than that --- Well I can't think of another good point.

not to deviate, but they actually 'piggy-backed' a pretty decent student loan reform.

 

[Jimbo]

Government intervention (i.e. laws, mandates, regulations) into Health Care is one of the primary reasons health care costs are so high (not because health care insurance companies are SO much greedier than other companies).

This same type of Government meddling is the reason for the soaring costs in higher education. The moment the government tries to "help" the situation by sticking their noses into natural economic law, the system becomes perverted and then only more and more deeper involvement is the answer. Once you start down that path there's no end.

So, while this student loan change may sound good, it's only a natural continuation of government involvement in all aspects of our lives where financial purchases come into play. Think about. All of the major purchases in a person's life have the government's fingers all over them...

Buying a home? - Yep, the government is totally involved.

Buying a car? - Now, the government owns car companies and can dictate who runs them too.

Buying a college education? - Now it's the government's job.


http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/o...-and-federal-loans-will-cost-us-87848727.html

.

 

[drtruong]

Buying a home? - Yep, the government is totally involved.

Buying a car? - Now, the government owns car companies and can dictate who runs them too.

Buying a college education? - Now it's the government's job.


http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/o...-and-federal-loans-will-cost-us-87848727.html

.

Smell and sound like a socialist ruler

 

[Jimbo]

Sure it sounds Socialist to me as well. But that's a dirty word and you often get chastised for using it.

So, I often resort to using the terms "Progressive" or "Statist".

A rose by any other name would smell as sweet.

It is what it is.

 

[swerve2007]

So, while this student loan change may sound good, it's only a natural continuation of government involvement in all aspects of our lives where financial purchases come into play. Think about.
.

oh come on, they simply took out the bank as a middleman and lend straight to the students- nothing wrong with that, if anything it decreased the burocracy.

 

[DrVolkl]

Sure it sounds Socialist to me as well. But that's a dirty word and you often get chastised for using it.

So, I often resort to using the terms "Progressive" or "Statist".

A rose by any other name would smell as sweet.

It is what it is.

To be fair, the gov't is selling it's Citibank bailout stock for a nice $7-8bil profit.

Sounds like good economics to me. Lets see if they can profit off GM.... and btw- if GM had failed (or citibank) we'd (imo) be in a whole lot worse mess.

I think we were under some special circumstances a few years ago... and hopefully we learned a thing or two.

Sounds like the Pres is about to open some new drilling as well, which makes sense to me.... that should piss off a few tree huggers.

 

[Jimbo]

oh come on, they simply took out the bank as a middleman and lend straight to the students- nothing wrong with that, if anything it decreased the burocracy.

No, nothing wrong with that if you want a government run economy. :frown:

You could make that same argument over any for-profit private business. Let's take out all that nasty profit making and make everything provided by the government at cost. Ahhh...No. I think not. In fact, let's have the government sell off the Post Office assets while we're at it.

And no, I don't want the government buying and selling company stocks to realize a profit. Hello, If GM failed?....HUH? It did fail and it declared bankruptcy. That's what happens when a business fails. It's not like the entire company and its assets disappears into a black hole. In fact the money we loaned them to originally avoid bankruptcy was a huge waste because it didn't work anyway.

And yes, I guess I'm guilty of employing the slippery-slope argument. But this student loan takeover by the government when combined with all of the other power grabs in the automotive, banking, health care segments has me extremely worried.

Enough is enough. We need the government for national defense and....uh...what was that other crucial thing that only the government can do? Uhhh...it escapes my mind at the moment but given a year or so it will come to me. :tongue:

 

[DrVolkl]

Well, if I remember my history correctly, income tax was created to help pay for WWII.

Last time I checked that war is long over and paid for....

Our Gov't needs to shrink big time, that includes military spending... and this whole health care mess is just another step to us working into slavery.

 

[steveny]

No, nothing wrong with that if you want a government run economy. :frown:

You could make that same argument over any for-profit private business. Let's take out all that nasty profit making and make everything provided by the government at cost. Ahhh...No. I think not. In fact, let's have the government sell off the Post Office assets while we're at it.

And no, I don't want the government buying and selling company stocks to realize a profit. Hello, If GM failed?....HUH? It did fail and it declared bankruptcy. That's what happens when a business fails. It's not like the entire company and its assets disappears into a black hole. In fact the money we loaned them to originally avoid bankruptcy was a huge waste because it didn't work anyway.

And yes, I guess I'm guilty of employing the slippery-slope argument. But this student loan takeover by the government when combined with all of the other power grabs in the automotive, banking, health care segments has me extremely worried.

Enough is enough. We need the government for national defense and....uh...what was that other crucial thing that only the government can do? Uhhh...it escapes my mind at the moment but given a year or so it will come to me. :tongue:

Makes me think of this quote


When the Nazis came for the communists,
I remained silent;
I was not a communist.

When they locked up the social democrats,
I remained silent;
I was not a social democrat.

When they came for the trade unionists,
I did not speak out;
I was not a trade unionist.

When they came for the Jews,
I remained silent;
I wasn't a Jew.

When they came for me,
there was no one left to speak out.

 

[Texas91Brent]

To be fair, the gov't is selling it's Citibank bailout stock for a nice $7-8bil profit.

Sounds like good economics to me. Lets see if they can profit off GM.... and btw- if GM had failed (or citibank) we'd (imo) be in a whole lot worse mess.

I think we were under some special circumstances a few years ago... and hopefully we learned a thing or two.

Sounds like the Pres is about to open some new drilling as well, which makes sense to me.... that should piss off a few tree huggers.

I would like to see where the 7-8 billion profit goes......It will disappear into some bullshit project and never be seen again.....Maybe his daughters could get a new swingset and hire Miley Cyrus for a birthday party with it!!

 

[Texas91Brent]

And just for the record, I voted which gives me a right to bitch!!!

 

[Biscuit]

oh come on, they simply took out the bank as a middleman and lend straight to the students- nothing wrong with that, if anything it decreased the burocracy.

And in the process helped eliminate the profit of a student loan (Sally Mae) organization that now will have to lay of 2500 people. Profit is not evil, no matter how many imes you're told it is. Companies have to make profit to survive and hire workers. It seems to me that this administation is doing wvryrhing it can to eliminate jobs not create them.

 

[Jimbo]

Steve,

Yes. I was thinking of that quote too. It's that bit-by-bit creeping loss that happens over a period of time. But taken individually like the student loans, heck it doesn't seem all that bad, does it?

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