The two cars that I did had CTSC on them and they both had a hesitation sometimes. When you would hit the gas very hard it almost felt like it did not have enough accel fuel and it was right when the car was leaving closed loop in to boost. Tried everything on these cars and could never get it to go away. I think it has something do with nature of the supercharger introducing air very quickly to the engine unlike turbochargers that don't have that instant air right at the intake port. I made the customers aware of the problem and they said they would just deal with it. But as a tuner in made me cringe. The weird thing was is the cars would only do it every now so it was very hard to pinpoint. Have you had anything like this. I would love to offer this to my customers due to California emissions but I will not give my customers a product that I am not completely satisfied with. Maybe it works very well on turbo systems only.
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HKS F-Con or AEM FIC for OBII Experience?
- Thread starter drmanny3
- Start date
FWIW, my experience being from a non technical standpoint here..
I had the fic for about 20,000 miles on my bbsc nsx at varying levels of boost. The car drove without any sort of hesitation--ever. It started at temperatures between 115F and probably 30F, without fail.
My end user experience was very satisfactory. I have a 2000 nsx.
The only issue i recollect was taking place at the track.
I would get a CEL for "random misfire"... I didn't matter how many times i hit redline on the street, it only occured under track (presumably harder) conditions. Never got it figured out. Once i'd go home from the track (sometimes for months at a time), the CEL would not recur.
I had the fic for about 20,000 miles on my bbsc nsx at varying levels of boost. The car drove without any sort of hesitation--ever. It started at temperatures between 115F and probably 30F, without fail.
My end user experience was very satisfactory. I have a 2000 nsx.
The only issue i recollect was taking place at the track.
I would get a CEL for "random misfire"... I didn't matter how many times i hit redline on the street, it only occured under track (presumably harder) conditions. Never got it figured out. Once i'd go home from the track (sometimes for months at a time), the CEL would not recur.
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i had a msl on my old car. If the fic was out back then i would probably still own that car.
I have used the FIC on both my OBDI CTSC and my OBDII Twin Turbo Setup and had little issues with either setup. The OBDI was much harder to get there and required more time on the dyno and studying logs than the OBDII setup was. Having played with the OBDII setup made the OBDI setup much easier, and not having the info from a previous OBDII tune would have made the OBDI tune much much harder.
Mike, AEM has a beta version of software and firmware that may address the lean tip-in that I think you are discribing, I have not messed with it yet but am running on the new firmware so I can play with it and see if it will work but here is the added features as described on the AEM Forum for this new firmware:
On top of the updates for internal logging in version 3.05, this update adds the option of a TPS-based fuel map (as opposed to a MAP-based one), increase in RPM so that the maps will go to from 12,000 to 17,000 RPM (aimed at motorcycles), and the addition of an acceleration enrichment pump emulator.
I have noticed in my logs of the '04 OBDII setup that on tip-in the AFR's spike lean before moving rich but in the logs this is measured in milliseconds and I believe it may always be this way as the ECU will have to react to conditions instead of anticipating them. I have not had any issues of hesitation and no unussual logged events durring closed loop or open loop operation. I have not tried to verify the effects of long term fuel trims on open loop conditions, but that is good info to know if the long term trims do not modify the open loop tables.
I have had one issue that is repeatable on the OBDII car, after the car has warmed and is then turned off the engine will heat soak (normal), not every time but upon trying to restart the car sometimes and it is rare the car will have to crank more than normal to start. When it happens the IAT are always over 125 degrees from the heat soak and after starting will work their way back to what I have logged to be normal on my car. This one issue I have not been able to dial out as there are no real adjustments that effect startup in the FIC other than maybe injector responce time but that will have a much larger effect on the entire tune than just start up. It happens maybe once out of every 50 start cycles so it really is not much of an issue for me on my personal car, but if I had tuned a car for someone else this would be an issue for me as I would not want to have a situation that I could not find a solution for.
I would really like to thank those who are willing to participate in a real talk about the FIC and other tuning issues on the NSX, in the past either for risk of giving away some trade secret or for some other reason few have been willing to share. I have tons of logged data and am willing to share, try and report any findings I have. If their are known issues and known solutions I would feel much better about my own setup if everyone that was in know would help everyone else know.
Thanks
Dave
Mike, AEM has a beta version of software and firmware that may address the lean tip-in that I think you are discribing, I have not messed with it yet but am running on the new firmware so I can play with it and see if it will work but here is the added features as described on the AEM Forum for this new firmware:
On top of the updates for internal logging in version 3.05, this update adds the option of a TPS-based fuel map (as opposed to a MAP-based one), increase in RPM so that the maps will go to from 12,000 to 17,000 RPM (aimed at motorcycles), and the addition of an acceleration enrichment pump emulator.
I have noticed in my logs of the '04 OBDII setup that on tip-in the AFR's spike lean before moving rich but in the logs this is measured in milliseconds and I believe it may always be this way as the ECU will have to react to conditions instead of anticipating them. I have not had any issues of hesitation and no unussual logged events durring closed loop or open loop operation. I have not tried to verify the effects of long term fuel trims on open loop conditions, but that is good info to know if the long term trims do not modify the open loop tables.
I have had one issue that is repeatable on the OBDII car, after the car has warmed and is then turned off the engine will heat soak (normal), not every time but upon trying to restart the car sometimes and it is rare the car will have to crank more than normal to start. When it happens the IAT are always over 125 degrees from the heat soak and after starting will work their way back to what I have logged to be normal on my car. This one issue I have not been able to dial out as there are no real adjustments that effect startup in the FIC other than maybe injector responce time but that will have a much larger effect on the entire tune than just start up. It happens maybe once out of every 50 start cycles so it really is not much of an issue for me on my personal car, but if I had tuned a car for someone else this would be an issue for me as I would not want to have a situation that I could not find a solution for.
I would really like to thank those who are willing to participate in a real talk about the FIC and other tuning issues on the NSX, in the past either for risk of giving away some trade secret or for some other reason few have been willing to share. I have tons of logged data and am willing to share, try and report any findings I have. If their are known issues and known solutions I would feel much better about my own setup if everyone that was in know would help everyone else know.
Thanks
Dave
hi Mike --
Is it perhaps temperature dependent? One of my wishes for the F/IC would be to have at least CLT temp offsets. I don't know if this will happen however ... they'd need to offer vehicle specific CLT sensor lookups or tap into the vehicle OBD2 bus which seems out of scope of the "universal" aspect of this product. The cars with the really big injectors - 3x the factory size, 750+cc, are most susceptible to drivability issues as the car's warming up. The only testing we have done however is with the RC injectors - I'd really like to try this with a more linear response injector like the IDs. After a few minutes of bring them up to temperature, this is a non issue. The customers understand that bring the car up to temperature prior to driving them into positive pressure is a must. This would be a nice to have.
I agree, an accel fueling option would be a big plus. We've been able to mitigate this with fuel enrichment right before open loop threshold however it takes a lot of fine tuning to not cause short term trims to be affected.
-- Chris
Very nice to know. I agree Dave, an open collaboration I think will yield the best results for everyone.
-- Chris
I have the FIC (tuned by Chris at SOS) on my '95 (High boost CTSC, autorotor). Runs great, very good driveability. Its been in for a few years, maybe 3k miles or so. As others have mentioned, I believe its all in the tune.
I'm no NSX tuning expert by any means (but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night) but I have a few data points to mention that may be beneficial to the discussion. I'm very interested in learning more and I'm
Following this discussion very closely.
In the two ECUs I'm familiar with, the long term fuel trims were not used in open loop operation. The A/F ratios were consistent even with whacked out long (and short) trim values. The were two non-Honda ECUs but it possibly shows a pattern about how factory tuning takes place.
When it comes to injectors, in my experience I've found RC to be less consistent from set to set (within one set, each injector would behave the same but a separate set would be different from the first set). The flow rates would always be within spec but the flow rate increase was not linear. Also, the dwell time from one set to another would be dissimilar. I've found much better consistency with Denso injectors.
My 02 has had a CTSC installed for the last 20K (currently 40K on the odo). It's a low boost Autorotor using the CT-supplied fueling solution. When it was first installed I had two recurring, nagging problems. The first was the same as ddozier's. The second was that it would sometimes stall when coming to a stop. Very embarrassing on such a nice car and both have gone away. I simply attributed it to the ECU learning about the new circumstances introduced by the CTSC. Two locals had the same exact troubles - one whipple and another autorotor. One guy sold his and the other I haven't asked about in a couple years.
So, that's all I have to say about that. Hope the data points can provide a little more insight for the experts.
J
Following this discussion very closely.
In the two ECUs I'm familiar with, the long term fuel trims were not used in open loop operation. The A/F ratios were consistent even with whacked out long (and short) trim values. The were two non-Honda ECUs but it possibly shows a pattern about how factory tuning takes place.
When it comes to injectors, in my experience I've found RC to be less consistent from set to set (within one set, each injector would behave the same but a separate set would be different from the first set). The flow rates would always be within spec but the flow rate increase was not linear. Also, the dwell time from one set to another would be dissimilar. I've found much better consistency with Denso injectors.
My 02 has had a CTSC installed for the last 20K (currently 40K on the odo). It's a low boost Autorotor using the CT-supplied fueling solution. When it was first installed I had two recurring, nagging problems. The first was the same as ddozier's. The second was that it would sometimes stall when coming to a stop. Very embarrassing on such a nice car and both have gone away. I simply attributed it to the ECU learning about the new circumstances introduced by the CTSC. Two locals had the same exact troubles - one whipple and another autorotor. One guy sold his and the other I haven't asked about in a couple years.
So, that's all I have to say about that. Hope the data points can provide a little more insight for the experts.
J
Is there a time frame for when they went away, miles of use. Also just for my reference was your FIC wired into the factory O2's signal to the ECU. and if so were there any changes made to the O2 offset tables?
For anyone else are you wiring in the OEM O2's? Has anyone played with the O2 Offset tables?
Dave
I had Cody from LoveFab install the Fic and tune my 99 with BBSC. It performs as stock. I was living in Chicago when Cody did the work and now reside in Phoenix. That's a pretty extreme weather variation and after Cody did his magic, I have a very stock running vehicle with more hp. I'm a firm believer that the Tuner is everything!
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