Excuse my ignorance, but how great was Senna as a race car driver? Was he the best ever? How critical was he truly in the NSX's development? May this inspiration to all us NSX drivers rest in peace. God Bless you, Aryton Senna!
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How Great was Senna?
- Thread starter AcuraNSX
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It is impossible to judge who the "best ever" driver is. Senna was certainly among the bests of the bests. I doubt he would be thought of being "best ever" if he were still alive today. There have been so many awesome drivers through the years. As far as I have read, Senna had some inputs on the fine tuning of the car but he was not heavily involved in the development of NSX.
Steve
Steve
Well, back in Senna's heyday, I was still in Junior High and that was when I first became aware of F1. I remember staying up late at night to catch the F1 races on ESPN (the only time they broadcast them back then).
My first memory of being aware of Senna was when he was doing a lap to qualify for his starting position. He had the best time so far, until a slower driver doing practice laps didn't let him pass and slowed down his time. I remember the camera being inside his car and seeing him raise his fist in the "I'm going to beat the hell out of you as soon as I finish this lap" manner to the other driver. I can remember thinking that this Senna guy had some balls.
I remember staying up at weird hours of the night watching the races, and being truly amazed at Senna's skill. When Senna raced, he was truly a cut above the other drivers on the field and I honestly believed that he was the best that ever was. Senna was my favorite driver, and I wanted to see that rivalry he had with Alain Prost. Senna, Prost, (Nigel) Mansell... those were the big name drivers I cared about.
I heard about Senna's death the day after it happened. I believed it was a 10 second blurb on the news. I was in SHOCK. To me, he was the best. How could this happen to SENNA? I suppose it is the same feeling that the previous generation had when Jim Clark died, or more recently, when Dale Earnhardt passed away. These guys weren't just driver's, they were deities. In regards to Senna, what was worst, was the utterly senseless manner in which he died. If you don't know, the big controversy was that, at that time, in order to make things more competitive for the less well funded teams, F1 outlawed some safety mechanisms in regards to braking and traction control. Alot of people believed that if Senna had been allowed to use these things on his car, he would have lived.
After Senna's death, Formula 1 meant little to me. After what happened, I really didn't want to watch it anymore. The driver's who tried to assume Senna or Prost's place were pale immitators (that is until Schumacher came along). The fact that was brought home to me is that Formula 1 racing is the deadliest sport period. I guess the post is a little long winded, but to answer your original question is "Yes, he was THAT GOOD."
My first memory of being aware of Senna was when he was doing a lap to qualify for his starting position. He had the best time so far, until a slower driver doing practice laps didn't let him pass and slowed down his time. I remember the camera being inside his car and seeing him raise his fist in the "I'm going to beat the hell out of you as soon as I finish this lap" manner to the other driver. I can remember thinking that this Senna guy had some balls.
I remember staying up at weird hours of the night watching the races, and being truly amazed at Senna's skill. When Senna raced, he was truly a cut above the other drivers on the field and I honestly believed that he was the best that ever was. Senna was my favorite driver, and I wanted to see that rivalry he had with Alain Prost. Senna, Prost, (Nigel) Mansell... those were the big name drivers I cared about.
I heard about Senna's death the day after it happened. I believed it was a 10 second blurb on the news. I was in SHOCK. To me, he was the best. How could this happen to SENNA? I suppose it is the same feeling that the previous generation had when Jim Clark died, or more recently, when Dale Earnhardt passed away. These guys weren't just driver's, they were deities. In regards to Senna, what was worst, was the utterly senseless manner in which he died. If you don't know, the big controversy was that, at that time, in order to make things more competitive for the less well funded teams, F1 outlawed some safety mechanisms in regards to braking and traction control. Alot of people believed that if Senna had been allowed to use these things on his car, he would have lived.
After Senna's death, Formula 1 meant little to me. After what happened, I really didn't want to watch it anymore. The driver's who tried to assume Senna or Prost's place were pale immitators (that is until Schumacher came along). The fact that was brought home to me is that Formula 1 racing is the deadliest sport period. I guess the post is a little long winded, but to answer your original question is "Yes, he was THAT GOOD."
Some people believe that the track itself (uneven undulations) caused his car to lose control, causing the crash. My understanding is that a portion of the front suspension that had broke loose flew up and penetrated Ayrton's face sheild. I guess your explanation could fit within what I mentioned as well.paulviriyapan said:
How good was he? Still today, some of his peers regard him as the best ever. At least that is what has been reported.
KGP,
I am still a bit hazy as to what exactly everyone believed caused the accident. I do know that at that time, F1 had outlawed some technology which would have helped teams with more money, and I recall people arguing that if Senna had the brakes, he would have avoided the accident. As this is 10 years ago, my memory of the specifics is a bit hazy. It very well may be that the track or the suspension failure caused the accident. I dunno. I think that the general consensus was that something had to have gone wrong with the equipment or the track...Senna was just TOO GOOD to have been taken out the way he was.
I am still a bit hazy as to what exactly everyone believed caused the accident. I do know that at that time, F1 had outlawed some technology which would have helped teams with more money, and I recall people arguing that if Senna had the brakes, he would have avoided the accident. As this is 10 years ago, my memory of the specifics is a bit hazy. It very well may be that the track or the suspension failure caused the accident. I dunno. I think that the general consensus was that something had to have gone wrong with the equipment or the track...Senna was just TOO GOOD to have been taken out the way he was.
As stated above, it's difficult to compare drivers from different eras. But, in his time he was considered the best. Prost was a close second and Schumacher was the young buck whom everyone knew would eventually be World Champion. Senna won 3 World Championships, 41 races in 161 starts (3rd all time) and 65 pole positions in 161 starts (1st all time.)
When he died he was leading the race. There is a lot of controversey over how he died. Some think there was a bump on the track that launched him into the wall at a strange angle, there may have been something wrong with the front suspension and the theory that may be closest to the truth has to do with the steering column having a defect, or being installed improperly. This theory goes that the steering column actually broke moments before the impact with the wall, implying that he couldn't steer the car to avoid the collision.
Regardless of what happened, as someone who has followed F1 for 19 years I believe there hasn't been another driver who combined his skill, charisma and sheer tenacity for victory. And there probably never will be. The sport lost a true champion and the world lost a good man. It was a dark day for motor racing.
When he died he was leading the race. There is a lot of controversey over how he died. Some think there was a bump on the track that launched him into the wall at a strange angle, there may have been something wrong with the front suspension and the theory that may be closest to the truth has to do with the steering column having a defect, or being installed improperly. This theory goes that the steering column actually broke moments before the impact with the wall, implying that he couldn't steer the car to avoid the collision.
Regardless of what happened, as someone who has followed F1 for 19 years I believe there hasn't been another driver who combined his skill, charisma and sheer tenacity for victory. And there probably never will be. The sport lost a true champion and the world lost a good man. It was a dark day for motor racing.
prior to the 94 season, F1 cars had ABS, traction control, and active suspension--just about everything but a coffee warmer. these were not safety devices, these were competitive devices, which may have made some of the backmarkers feel a little safer as their pay-drivers toddled around the track acting as mobile chicanes.
senna had his share of arrogance and narcissism, just as prost and mansell, and schumacher, and alan jones, carlos reutemann, jackie ickx, and any other F1 champ ever had. senna was not much of a team player, and his technical input was limited. he could get in a less-than-average car and make it do things it shouldn't. that makes him a great driver, but really doesn't prove anything toward being the best.
do you suppose he could jump in a lotus 49 and run rings around jim clark? or a ferrari 156 and trounce phil hill? or maybe walk away from jackie stewart in a tyrell? that's like asking "how many angels can dance on the head of a pin?" who cares? and what would you do with that knowledge if you had it?
senna was a product of his time. at any given moment, there are probably 10 000 senna's or schumi's or hill's out there, flipping burgers, playing drums in a rock band, or performing neurosurgery instead of driving an F1 car, but still trying to be the best at what they do. senna just had the opportunity to do his in a car.
as far as what caused the crash, no one on this board has put forward diffuser stall as a possibility. i think that was a factor... cars with flat bottoms, exhaust running through big diffusers, low ride height, and undulating track could have combined to momentarily reduce downforce going into a fast sweeper. no amount of ABS, traction control, or active suspension would have helped that problem.
however, today's safety devices might have...wheel tethers,
higher cockpit sides, drivers feet outside the suspension envelope, side, front and rear crash protection. these are senna's legacy, not that he won X races or Y poles. influencing the sport is what makes an athlete great.
senna had his share of arrogance and narcissism, just as prost and mansell, and schumacher, and alan jones, carlos reutemann, jackie ickx, and any other F1 champ ever had. senna was not much of a team player, and his technical input was limited. he could get in a less-than-average car and make it do things it shouldn't. that makes him a great driver, but really doesn't prove anything toward being the best.
do you suppose he could jump in a lotus 49 and run rings around jim clark? or a ferrari 156 and trounce phil hill? or maybe walk away from jackie stewart in a tyrell? that's like asking "how many angels can dance on the head of a pin?" who cares? and what would you do with that knowledge if you had it?
senna was a product of his time. at any given moment, there are probably 10 000 senna's or schumi's or hill's out there, flipping burgers, playing drums in a rock band, or performing neurosurgery instead of driving an F1 car, but still trying to be the best at what they do. senna just had the opportunity to do his in a car.
as far as what caused the crash, no one on this board has put forward diffuser stall as a possibility. i think that was a factor... cars with flat bottoms, exhaust running through big diffusers, low ride height, and undulating track could have combined to momentarily reduce downforce going into a fast sweeper. no amount of ABS, traction control, or active suspension would have helped that problem.
however, today's safety devices might have...wheel tethers,
higher cockpit sides, drivers feet outside the suspension envelope, side, front and rear crash protection. these are senna's legacy, not that he won X races or Y poles. influencing the sport is what makes an athlete great.
I agree that it is not easy who was the best, but in my opinion Senna is in the top 5-6 F1 drivers of all time.
In no particular order:
Juan-Manuel Fangio
Jim Clark
Aytron Senna
Michael Schumacher
Tazio Nuvolari
Gilles Villeneuve
Alain Prost
Since there are different eras/cars involved it is impossible to make a real ranking...
In no particular order:
Juan-Manuel Fangio
Jim Clark
Aytron Senna
Michael Schumacher
Tazio Nuvolari
Gilles Villeneuve
Alain Prost
Since there are different eras/cars involved it is impossible to make a real ranking...
"How critical was he truly in the NSX's development?"
Excerpt from "The NSX - Honda's Super Sports Car" ISBN 0951775103
Chapter: Senna (page 96)
"I came to Suzaka to test the NSX," he explains. "To test a road car on a circuit is not ideal, but it was possible for me to see the progress it was making. Even as a prototype it already had strong performance, but in the 18 months after that up to when I drove a production model at the Canadian Grand Prix in 1990, it was a lot better in all areas."
At Suzaka, Senna spent a whole day with the NSX project team led by Shigeru Uehara. He started in the morning listening intently to a briefing on the NSX prototype by Mr Uehara and his team. After carefully and methodically familiarising himself with the car, sitting in the driving seat and having its features pointed out by the team, he took to the track. For the project team, it meant a nervous wait for his return.
But his first impression was positive. He like the "feel" of the car, its acceleration - this even before the VTEC engine had been installed - and general design. There was room for improvement though. He was a bit concerned about the braking, in which he found slight instability, a tendancy for the car to wander when hauling itself down from the highest speeds, expecially when stamping hard on the centre pedal on the way into Suzaka's bends. The engineers listened carefully to his analysis, and when Senna next drove the NSX some 18 months later in Canada (no longer a prototype) he noted that the engineers had made a lot of progress. "When I hit the brakes hard at 167mph (270km/h) the car stopped dead straight, with no sign of the car changing direction."
During Senna's four or five stints driving the NSX at Suzaka, he closely analysed tyre effects as the mechanics made a number of changes throughout the day trying out various combinations of sizes. Also, while Senna was fairly complimentary at Suzaka about the car's low level of wind noise, he was slightly troubled about some roar coming from behind his head. Once again, the engineers paid attention, and he found this had been eliminated on the Canadian car. Senna's other concern was the gear linkage, which he found prone to stickiness on engaging second, and again the engineers listened and acted.
Why does this Grand Prix ace admire the roadgoing NSX? "At high speed it is very comfortable; the NSX is a good combination of comfort and sportiness. I believe that the car will be highly successful. One of the things I really like about it is the high standard of its finish - normally, sports cars aren't well finished. Compared to a Ferrari, it rides better over bumps; the Ferrari is harsher and not so quiet."
The engine impresses Senna. "It's very progressive, very gentle. The NSX is a sports car but anybody can drive it. You have the feeling of 'sportive' car but with the comfort of a car you can drive every day of the week. You could make long trips in this car. Most other sports cars you can only drive for a couple of days a week because they are rough, heavy and noisy. The NSX is totally different."
Excerpt from "The NSX - Honda's Super Sports Car" ISBN 0951775103
Chapter: Senna (page 96)
"I came to Suzaka to test the NSX," he explains. "To test a road car on a circuit is not ideal, but it was possible for me to see the progress it was making. Even as a prototype it already had strong performance, but in the 18 months after that up to when I drove a production model at the Canadian Grand Prix in 1990, it was a lot better in all areas."
At Suzaka, Senna spent a whole day with the NSX project team led by Shigeru Uehara. He started in the morning listening intently to a briefing on the NSX prototype by Mr Uehara and his team. After carefully and methodically familiarising himself with the car, sitting in the driving seat and having its features pointed out by the team, he took to the track. For the project team, it meant a nervous wait for his return.
But his first impression was positive. He like the "feel" of the car, its acceleration - this even before the VTEC engine had been installed - and general design. There was room for improvement though. He was a bit concerned about the braking, in which he found slight instability, a tendancy for the car to wander when hauling itself down from the highest speeds, expecially when stamping hard on the centre pedal on the way into Suzaka's bends. The engineers listened carefully to his analysis, and when Senna next drove the NSX some 18 months later in Canada (no longer a prototype) he noted that the engineers had made a lot of progress. "When I hit the brakes hard at 167mph (270km/h) the car stopped dead straight, with no sign of the car changing direction."
During Senna's four or five stints driving the NSX at Suzaka, he closely analysed tyre effects as the mechanics made a number of changes throughout the day trying out various combinations of sizes. Also, while Senna was fairly complimentary at Suzaka about the car's low level of wind noise, he was slightly troubled about some roar coming from behind his head. Once again, the engineers paid attention, and he found this had been eliminated on the Canadian car. Senna's other concern was the gear linkage, which he found prone to stickiness on engaging second, and again the engineers listened and acted.
Why does this Grand Prix ace admire the roadgoing NSX? "At high speed it is very comfortable; the NSX is a good combination of comfort and sportiness. I believe that the car will be highly successful. One of the things I really like about it is the high standard of its finish - normally, sports cars aren't well finished. Compared to a Ferrari, it rides better over bumps; the Ferrari is harsher and not so quiet."
The engine impresses Senna. "It's very progressive, very gentle. The NSX is a sports car but anybody can drive it. You have the feeling of 'sportive' car but with the comfort of a car you can drive every day of the week. You could make long trips in this car. Most other sports cars you can only drive for a couple of days a week because they are rough, heavy and noisy. The NSX is totally different."
I've been following F1 fo nearly 30 years and have seen all of Senna's F1 races on TV (and one in person). In his time, he was clearly the fastest driver. I think his qualifying record and number of pole positions justifies this.
As far as being the bet driver, even in his generation, that would be up for debate. Alain Prost would rarely be up to Senna's pace in qualifying but it was a different story in a race where they matched up very evenly.
Prost was a master tactician getting he most out of his car while still preserving it. Senna's was just all out fast, with less intention of pacing the car through out the race.
That being said, Senna is on the top my list for fastest driver. Greatest? He is on the list with a group of others.
As far as being the bet driver, even in his generation, that would be up for debate. Alain Prost would rarely be up to Senna's pace in qualifying but it was a different story in a race where they matched up very evenly.
Prost was a master tactician getting he most out of his car while still preserving it. Senna's was just all out fast, with less intention of pacing the car through out the race.
That being said, Senna is on the top my list for fastest driver. Greatest? He is on the list with a group of others.
Exactely my feeling: if you see my list of the greatest above, Senna and Prost are the only one from the same period... impossible to decide a clear winner.
Prost was slightly Senna's elder, and it showed, I think in their later battles. I too put those two on the all-time best list. I have Schumacher on there as well, but I bet Senna would take him if they had been the same age.
I think Montoya is there as well IMHO.
Senna once took boxing lessons, and shortly thereafter punched someone out at one of the races with his "new talent." He lost some of my admiration after that. Probably gained some admiration from NASCAR fans (sorry, couldn't help it).
Bill
I think Montoya is there as well IMHO.
Senna once took boxing lessons, and shortly thereafter punched someone out at one of the races with his "new talent." He lost some of my admiration after that. Probably gained some admiration from NASCAR fans (sorry, couldn't help it).
Bill
IMHO Schumacher is at least the equal of Senna. I've been fortunate enough to have seen both Senna and Schumacher drive many times as a spectator sitting in the grandstands. Although you have a reduced understanding of what strategies are playing out during the race compared to watching on TV, you do actually observe driving technique more closely especially on street courses like Monaco and Phoenix back when the GP was held there. You can actually see the driver's hands work and hear the throttle modulation as he goes through a turn.
When Senna went by you knew you were seeing something special, however the most amazing drive I ever saw ( in any series anywhere ) was Schumacher in Monaco in 1997. It was raining and he put 1.5 to 2 seconds on the entire field per lap. He was no more than 2 to 3 inches from the guardrail every lap and each lap was identical to the last one; everyone else allowed themselves at least twice to three times the margin. He was on the limit at all times and with one exception absolutely digital in his precision.
I wish I had been at Donington Park in 1993 to watch Senna, because I think that with few exceptions anybody driving in an F1 race is so astoundingly good that as a mere spectator you can only really sort them out in the rain - the driver's car control is more evident due the reduced level of grip.
When Senna went by you knew you were seeing something special, however the most amazing drive I ever saw ( in any series anywhere ) was Schumacher in Monaco in 1997. It was raining and he put 1.5 to 2 seconds on the entire field per lap. He was no more than 2 to 3 inches from the guardrail every lap and each lap was identical to the last one; everyone else allowed themselves at least twice to three times the margin. He was on the limit at all times and with one exception absolutely digital in his precision.
I wish I had been at Donington Park in 1993 to watch Senna, because I think that with few exceptions anybody driving in an F1 race is so astoundingly good that as a mere spectator you can only really sort them out in the rain - the driver's car control is more evident due the reduced level of grip.
With all this attention coming 10 years since passing I have heard people trying to draw comparisons.
I think he was the best ever given the time period and level of competition. No burn on Schmi, he is good, one of the best ever but I cannot discount how superior the Ferrari equip. is and has been for more than a few years. History will never tell us what he could have done IMO but his death changed so much, even track configuration which is seldom mentioned.
I think he was the best ever given the time period and level of competition. No burn on Schmi, he is good, one of the best ever but I cannot discount how superior the Ferrari equip. is and has been for more than a few years. History will never tell us what he could have done IMO but his death changed so much, even track configuration which is seldom mentioned.
tucsonsx said:
I was at the first US Grand Prix in Phoenix. Were you there as well?
senna
I remember an article from senna's teammate Damon Hill.He felt rule changes made the williams car undriveable. When F 1 took away the tracton control and active suspension Williams took a step backward. Senna had his work cut out for him. He drove everything to the absolute edge. Damon Hill blamed F1 for taking away safety for a more thrilling season. The car senna died in was not a better car than the one Prost drove the year before.
I remember an article from senna's teammate Damon Hill.He felt rule changes made the williams car undriveable. When F 1 took away the tracton control and active suspension Williams took a step backward. Senna had his work cut out for him. He drove everything to the absolute edge. Damon Hill blamed F1 for taking away safety for a more thrilling season. The car senna died in was not a better car than the one Prost drove the year before.
SoCalDude said:
I was at all 3 races in Phoenix - IMHO the revised course used for the last race was better than the course used the first 2 years. Going from memory ( always a dodgy concept ) the stands at turns 8, 9 & 10 ( Madison and 6th area ) let you watch all 3 turns really close to the cars; these were the type of stands I was referring to in the post. You could see the driver's faces and watch them work the wheel. I remember watching a rookie named Haakinen and thinking this kid won't be driving that backmarker Lotus for long and listening to the exhaust note of the Porsches in the Footwork cars and thinking that things a dud.
I've always thought that the race would have been a success if Bernie had given it a few more years. The final year (1991) you could see the race gaining a following. It had been moved to March so the weather was great, and unlike the first two years we met a lot of Asians who had made the race part of a vacation that included Las Vegas and Scottsdale and Mexicans and South Americans who already had an affinity for the local culture. Downtown Phoenix has been transformed in tha past 10 years; there is now nightlife scene and people who live there. If Bernie had left the race in Phoenix I truly believe that the USGP would be in better shape than it is now; it could have been like Long Beach in the desert
Those were truly great years for us Arizonans. We had F1 back when the cars were pretty and were on real racing slicks and CART back when it was bigger than NASCAR ( if you can imagine that ) all in the space of one month.
Senna, one of the greats.
My fondest memory of Ayrton was almost being run over by him as he was running from a rather large group of rabid fans trying to get an autograph. This was in the pits at PHX. That, and when he used the "F" word after his win in Detroit one year on National TV. The announcers were in shock.
Senna had extreme car control that was especially evident in the rain. When it was raining no one could really touch him. He wasn't the best at saving his car or driving just fast enough to win, like the Professor, (Prost), but in qualifying he was in a league of his own. I was never impressed with his "win at all costs" attitude, similar to Schumi. But there was no denying he had driving talent that was awe inspiring to watch, especially when he had a few minuets left in qualifying and always went out and pulled out P1 with seconds to spare.
I lived in Phx for all three years of the GP and stayed at the track Thurs-Sun. It was the greatest thing that ever happened to that town. But when the papers ran front-page articles about the Ostrigde festival out pulling the GP, Bernie had enough.
For those who haven't seen it,
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/default.stm#
has a good article on the crash. The two things they don't mention was that William's had the car setup very low trying to correct aerodynamic issues and the fact that the tires were cold after running yellow laps which probably dropped the car further, making it bottom even harder than the previous laps at speed.
Was he the best? At Qualifying I would have to say yes. As a racer, he was among the top 10.
My fondest memory of Ayrton was almost being run over by him as he was running from a rather large group of rabid fans trying to get an autograph. This was in the pits at PHX. That, and when he used the "F" word after his win in Detroit one year on National TV. The announcers were in shock.
Senna had extreme car control that was especially evident in the rain. When it was raining no one could really touch him. He wasn't the best at saving his car or driving just fast enough to win, like the Professor, (Prost), but in qualifying he was in a league of his own. I was never impressed with his "win at all costs" attitude, similar to Schumi. But there was no denying he had driving talent that was awe inspiring to watch, especially when he had a few minuets left in qualifying and always went out and pulled out P1 with seconds to spare.
I lived in Phx for all three years of the GP and stayed at the track Thurs-Sun. It was the greatest thing that ever happened to that town. But when the papers ran front-page articles about the Ostrigde festival out pulling the GP, Bernie had enough.
For those who haven't seen it,
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/default.stm#
has a good article on the crash. The two things they don't mention was that William's had the car setup very low trying to correct aerodynamic issues and the fact that the tires were cold after running yellow laps which probably dropped the car further, making it bottom even harder than the previous laps at speed.
Was he the best? At Qualifying I would have to say yes. As a racer, he was among the top 10.
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