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how much income per year is 'enough'?

And I value the innovator, not neccessarily the researcher.

Researchers are innovators. In fact, innovators aren't people any more. They are giant conglomerate corporations and huge money fueled industries made by greedy corporate types. Where do you think most of our medical drugs come from? Some mad scientist in a basement lab? Where do you think stealth fighters and spacecraft come from? A junkyard inventor with a welder? The days of Da Vinci and Edison are gone. The days of a single innovator with the funds and ability to come up with a life changing development don’t happen anymore. I work in a VERY niche industry and is as fertile a breeding ground for innovative development as any other. There a few individuals that make minor innovative developments that plod the industry a micrometer at a time, but nothing near on the grand scale to which you refer to as “respectable”. The vast majority of the major development are made by faceless companies with large pockets of cash to throw a lot of R&D, using a TEAM of people all doing only a fraction of the actual development and incidentally doing it concurrently with their mundane day to day work. Innovations aren’t sprung forth in a flash. They slowly developed over years and years, often changing through many hands.

I don’t know how old you are, or how long you’ve been in the workforce, but you have a very simplistic and idealistic view of what it is like out in the industry. It is a dirty, gritty world where lines between greed, innovation, advancement, selfishness, development and cruelty are all blurred. The very same type of “innovators” and “entrepreneurs” you say you respect, are the very same type of people who stepped on or took advantage of people beneath them on their way up. You have to because it is a dog-eat-dog world.
 
Researchers are innovators. In fact, innovators aren't people any more. They are giant conglomerate corporations and huge money fueled industries made by greedy corporate types. Where do you think most of our medical drugs come from? Some mad scientist in a basement lab? Where do you think stealth fighters and spacecraft come from? A junkyard inventor with a welder? The days of Da Vinci and Edison are gone. The days of a single innovator with the funds and ability to come up with a life changing development don’t happen anymore. I work in a VERY niche industry and is as fertile a breeding ground for innovative development as any other. There a few individuals that make minor innovative developments that plod the industry a micrometer at a time, but nothing near on the grand scale to which you refer to as “respectable”. The vast majority of the major development are made by faceless companies with large pockets of cash to throw a lot of R&D, using a TEAM of people all doing only a fraction of the actual development and incidentally doing it concurrently with their mundane day to day work. Innovations aren’t sprung forth in a flash. They slowly developed over years and years, often changing through many hands.
You are not presenting new information to me. I understand how modern technology development occurs. Like I said, I value an Electrical Engineer with three semi-conductor patents than the average physician. That is not a slight, it's merely a rank order preference.

I don’t know how old you are, or how long you’ve been in the workforce, but you have a very simplistic and idealistic view of what it is like out in the industry. It is a dirty, gritty world where lines between greed, innovation, advancement, selfishness, development and cruelty are all blurred. The very same type of “innovators” and “entrepreneurs” you say you respect, are the very same type of people who stepped on or took advantage of people beneath them on their way up. You have to because it is a dog-eat-dog world.
I'm not sure what your point is. I don't care if someone is greedy/selfish/cruel. I care if they innovate. Do they create value.
 
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You are not presenting new information to me. I understand how modern technology development occurs. Like I said, I value an Electrical Engineer with three semi-conductor patents than the average physician. That is not a slight, it's merely a rank order preference.

Apparently I am because you are still missing the point. You keep thinking there is "an" electrical engineer with three semi-conductor patents. Maybe 100 years ago. That electrical engineer isn't a single person anymore. You are choosing to respect a phantom, a figment of your imagination. Corporations own patents, innovations, new life saving drugs, new technology, not single people. Again, I'm sure there is "an" electrical engineer out there with patents or innovations, but they are minor and hardly life changing. I seen it with my own eyes; I've worked at the PTO.

I'm not sure what your point is. I don't care if someone is greedy/selfish/cruel. I care if they innovate. Do they create value.

Well that's fine, but it's awfully myopic. Think about it, why do you care so much if they innovate? Because they create value? Value to whom? The people. You care about the greater good of helping people. Philanthropic values. But I'm arguing that there are people who help people far greater and deeper than simply creating values. There are people who have far more value to life and society than just innovators. A doctor who saves the life of multiple children spawns generations of future innovators, life savers and people to carry on our future. A collection of protestors for civil rights create more value than innovators. Soldiers, who innovate nothing, protect your freedom and livelihood also should be respected as much as these innovators you choose to respect so much.
 
Apparently I am because you are still missing the point. You keep thinking there is "an" electrical engineer with three semi-conductor patents. Maybe 100 years ago. That electrical engineer isn't a single person anymore. You are choosing to respect a phantom, a figment of your imagination. Corporations own patents, innovations, new life saving drugs, new technology, not single people. Again, I'm sure there is "an" electrical engineer out there with patents or innovations, but they are minor and hardly life changing. I seen it with my own eyes; I've worked at the PTO.
You act like I'm talking about the person who owns the patent. I've never said that. I'm talking about the person(s) who develops it. You mention that patents are developed on teams, I've never disagreed with that. However, teams do not create 100% of patents. It's also missing the point entirely - which is that I value those who innovate. You seem to be picking on technicalities on a hypothetical situation I presented (basically the definition of missing the point).

Well that's fine, but it's awfully myopic. Think about it, why do you care so much if they innovate? Because they create value? Value to whom? The people. You care about the greater good of helping people. Philanthropic values. But I'm arguing that there are people who help people far greater and deeper than simply creating values. There are people who have far more value to life and society than just innovators. A doctor who saves the life of multiple children spawns generations of future innovators, life savers and people to carry on our future. A collection of protestors for civil rights create more value than innovators. Soldiers, who innovate nothing, protect your freedom and livelihood also should be respected as much as these innovators you choose to respect so much.
The reason it's better to live in 2009 as opposed to 1959 is technology development. For the same reason it'll be better to live in 2059 than the present.

First world economies are those which generate the newest and best technologies (and yes, it requires a lot of capital). Doctors in 3rd world countries make less than plumbers in 1st world economies - and the reason is almost entirely traced back to technology generation.
 
Wow this has gone way off track.

I did realize until recently that a lot of people are constantly sizing up other people and placing them in categories. Pretty sad really. I guess I even do it myself but once someone gets out of the leech off the system category they are the same as everyone else to me.

I don't know about you guys but for me, one day I might be hanging around with a physician and the next day a back woods factory worker and I might go Four Wheelin' in the mud. I enjoy myself with either person equally. Hell I can even have fun going to a fair with a bunch of tattooed bikers, did that to this summer. Those guys are a hoot.

I think it's unfair to say one person is worth more than another if both people are at least trying.
 
You act like I'm talking about the person who owns the patent. I've never said that. I'm talking about the person(s) who develops it. You mention that patents are developed on teams, I've never disagreed with that. However, teams do not create 100% of patents. It's also missing the point entirely - which is that I value those who innovate. You seem to be picking on technicalities on a hypothetical situation I presented (basically the definition of missing the point).

Well this is all pointless until you realize that any innovation worth a lick of salt isn't made by a single person with philanthropic motivations. The cure for cancer will be made by a greedy corporation paying a team of people all to a ton of spray and pray research. The person who actually "discovers" it will be some lab tech doing hundreds of mundane iterations as instructed through a corporate ladder. It's not going to be some "eureaka" moment by one guy ina lab. As stated yourself, you are talking about a hypothetica situation; it doesn't exist but only in your mind.

The reason it's better to live in 2009 as opposed to 1959 is technology development. For the same reason it'll be better to live in 2059 than the present.

First world economies are those which generate the newest and best technologies (and yes, it requires a lot of capital). Doctors in 3rd world countries make less than plumbers in 1st world economies - and the reason is almost entirely traced back to technology generation.

Well there's your first mistake. You say it's better to live now? Uhh, what's the definition of better? You live longer? You have more plasma TV's? Many studies have shown that the actual quality of life has not improved, nor has gotten better over time. People are taking more anti-depressants than ever. Divorce is at its highest rate. It's been shown that we actually have less lesiure time than our ancestors. I don't think life is any better now than it has been before.
 
back on track,
I just need $36,000/year more to race a full season next year.
nothing nebulous there.
anyone interested in sponsoring a middle-aged, mid-pack running formula car racer? I'm sure that with more seat time I can be a contender...:biggrin:
 
I think the $5,000,000 I will make this year should finally allow me to stop living paycheck to paycheck. That is unless I buy more toys :cool:
 
Interesting article and it certainly illustrates the impact of relative income based on one's geographical home. I wish the govt would use zipcodes to give cost of living adjustments to federal income taxes. Never going to happen. 249k a year in Topeka, KS would be like 1m a year in the Northern Fairfax County, VA (DC Suburbs)... yet only the Topeka resident would dodge future Obama tax hikes if 250k ends up being the cutoff. Oh relativity, I wish everyone saw you as I do.
 
Money after a certain point say 100k,doesnt make a shit of difference if you are not happy. Being happy,healthy,having people that love you, and with enough money to own a NSX is about enough...:wink:..
 
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