Iffy vendors

[RSO 34]

My experience with him has been the best one... he always goes over his head to fullfill my requests (sometimes crazy ones).

I will ask you to do the same thing I have asked others with a great relationship with him. Make this your next crazy request: Ask him to respond to all those who have claimed to be entitled to refunds and clear up those outstanding debts. I would suggest he start with this one: http://www.nsxprime.com/forums/showpost.php?p=282291&postcount=1

I believe there are still people in the community who have not been burned by him. However, every time someone has come forward to support him and question another member who claims to have been ripped off, I have suggested repeatedly that the "friend" of Dali use their friendship to inquire on behalf the of the community as to the status of claims made by the membership. Sadly, no one has ever used their friendship in that fashion.

 

[UnhuZ]

I will ask you to do the same thing I have asked others with a great relationship with him. Make this your next crazy request: Ask him to respond to all those who have claimed to be entitled to refunds and clear up those outstanding debts. I would suggest he start with this one: http://www.nsxprime.com/forums/showpost.php?p=282291&postcount=1

I believe there are still people in the community who have not been burned by him. However, every time someone has come forward to support him and question another member who claims to have been ripped off, I have suggested repeatedly that the "friend" of Dali use their friendship to inquire on behalf the of the community as to the status of claims made by the membership. Sadly, no one has ever used their friendship in that fashion.

Let's deal with the blue words:
- "great relationship", "friend"... i don't think i'm a friend of Mark, and i think de doesn't see me as a friend also... i don't ever even met him...it takes a lot to call someone friend...at least for me... we just have good business and communication between us.
- "support him"...i didn't... i just presented my experience with him...it's far from supporting him... there is more in the world than bash and support... if others bash and attack him, it doesn't mean that i'm supporting him by stating opposite experiences... but if you want, i can present my experience with SOS :wink:
- "question another member"... false...i didn't question anyone... i simple did say that there are more to it than we can know...in a dispute, if both are right, either there is no dispute or one of the 2 is lying....there is no third option.

Don't get me the wrong way....but i can't point him a gun and make him do whatever... and i already talked with him, a long time ago (i just didn't brag about it here), about these problems...there is nothing more i can do from across the planet..... i'm a third party to any business i'm not envolved, so i feel like i'm invading someone else's property...i bring the issue up...if i'm not welcome or the talk leads other way, i can't force it ...

all i ask is that i don't get misunderstood here...

 

[RSO 34]

My suggestion was worded in the most general sense and did not mean you specifically in any context other than suggesting that since you "have his ear" that the issue might be raised. And just to avoid me not making myself clear again, when I say you "have his ear" that simply means he actually answers your emails and delivers what you have paid for. The rest of my post refers to conversations I have had with members over the years who have told me they actually are "friends" with Mark but none of them wanted to get involved.

And I believe I may have also suggested this once before to you many moons ago since I seem to recall you commenting way back when that you did speak with him. Your note that you spoke with him seems to be refreshing my memory so thank you for that as well as making the effort previously.

 

[UnhuZ]

My suggestion was worded in the most general sense and did not mean you specifically in any context other than suggesting that since you "have his ear" that the issue might be raised. And just to avoid me not making myself clear again, when I say you "have his ear" that simply means he actually answers your emails and delivers what you have paid for. The rest of my post refers to conversations I have had with members over the years who have told me they actually are "friends" with Mark but none of them wanted to get involved.

And I believe I may have also suggested this once before to you many moons ago since I seem to recall you commenting way back when that you did speak with him. Your note that you spoke with him seems to be refreshing my memory so thank you for that as well as making the effort previously.

There is no need to thank me....i just want the utopic "let's all get along good with eachother" thought to come closer to reality as it can...

Believe....what is in my hands to do for the next guy, i'll do it...Prime is more than a addict....it's almost like family....i find myself here many times a day... soon i'll start giving back the community some of the good i've had from it... i'm just waiting for my life to settle a little...

Thanks,
Nuno

PS - I too suffered scams....local ones... and know what is seeing our hard earned money freely in other hands but ours...so...i feel sympathetic with fellows that in way or another were parted from their money in a bad way

 

[UnhuZ]

There is no need to thank me...."

what i wanted to write was something more like:

"There is nothing to thank me about, so there is no need to thank me..." :wink: :wink:

I understand very well English language, almost like Portuguese...but i shoot myself in the feet with some verbs, some words or even the meaning i'm trying to pass to you...i try my best...i hope you all can understand me well enough :tongue:

 

[Aiken Drum]

but i know for sure that if the vendor isn't always right, the customer also isn't always right for sure ....

Do NOT make this generalization. I did NOTHING wrong:

- I paid for an item.

- Mark told me he didn't have it in stock and had no one to make more for him.

- I suggested a refund until things changed.

- He said he didn't mind, but didn't actually give me a refund.

- I specifically said I wanted a refund.

- He has never, ever said anything to me since, despite multiple attempts to contact him.

I especially want to point out that I was over-the-top cheerful and friendly with him up until the point that I had to file a dispute with paypal.

So... what did *I* do wrong, other than giving money to a bad person?

Go on, I'm listening.

 

[nicholas421]

You've been a member of Prime since 2003. Did you not know of Dali's reputation when you placed your order?

 

[Mike-san]

If I were in your shoes, I would simply keep bumping my thread in the buyer/seller experience section w/ daily updates until I received my refund. That way, your personel dissatisfaction w/ the vendor is always present on the forums page.

 

[Mike-san]

If I were in your shoes, I would simply keep bumping my thread in the buyer/seller experience section w/ daily updates until I received my refund. That way, your personel dissatisfaction w/ the vendor is always present on the forums page.

Wait, Admin has to approve posts in that section.....Oh well, that's my unsolicited solution.......

 

[UnhuZ]

Do NOT make this generalization. I did NOTHING wrong:

Please... understand that the generalization its truth...it's not absolute.... in everything in life there are always good and bad...as in good and bad vendors .... good and bad friends.... good and bad women... and good and bad clients...

so... the generalization is not wrong....what is wrong is that you applied it to yourself, when i never sayed nothing near you being wrong...

i was talking about my experience with Mark, not yours.

If you feel you're right, go to the end of what you can do....that's all i can advise you to do....we must always fight for our reasons and beliefs, but never offending anyone, even if they're wrong and we are right...violence, offenses and disrespect never give us reason, i think it's all the way arround..it takes it away from us...

 

[docjohn]

As it stands now If Mark did start personaly responding to his ripped off detracters I can only imagine how those threads would go The admins would need to be policing the threads continuously,,and we'd probably end up with the donkey cart again I think RSO's atempt at a internet solution requiring a written response to each dispute a start.Mark has so many unresolved events that in his particular case we would have to get past the past to progress with RSO's plan.I see no problems with his ideas with most of our other regular vendors.Again though the whole mode4 synergy mess and Yay"s tirades give us pause..

 

[Aiken Drum]

Mark has so many unresolved events that in his particular case we would have to get past the past to progress with RSO's plan.

Wouldn't that be a good thing?

I don't see any problem with Mark being confronted with the history he created.

 

[john@johnhudakracing]

Very well. Basically you are asking me to research something I am already aware of and make a judgment call which I have already made. Do you really think I am unaware of major vendor issues? I personally approve all the complaints in the Buyer/Seller/Vendor Experiences forum. If you search this NSX Prime Discussion forum you will see vendor discussions have come up several times over the years in here as well. I have been to the last 9 NSXPOs and a number of other NSX owner meetings for the past 11 years and met / talked to many owners in person about all kinds of things including vendor experiences. Add to that a large volume of e-mail, PM, etc. communication from people about various vendor issues. I don't mean this in a condescending way, but I have a pretty good basis of understanding about vendors in the NSX community. I'm sure many others do as well - it's not a big community so it's not very hard.

So really you just disagree with the fact that I have not banned this vendor and are mad at me. I haven't been ridiculing or sarcastic with you at all, and I'm not sure how you are reading that into my replies other than because you are angry and reading what I write in a negative light. You came here asking about a "policy." I don't think "look at it and make a call" is what most people think of when they hear the word "policy," so I was trying to get you to outline what you had in mind. That is all.

If you want to provide further constructive input you are always welcome to do so as I outlined above But understand that while everyone has an opinion and can provide input it is simply not possible to run the site the way every individual would like. Ultimately I have to make some decisions and not everyone is going to agree with all of them. In fact there are probably few if any decisions that everybody in a group this large and diverse agrees with.

My constructive input, to which I am certain you are already aware- is that the ITrader feedback system is easily manipulated. It's not difficult to run/manipulate threads and request feedback on every little thing so as to gain the appearance with one tenth of the work. Their are a lot of cases whereas people work to garner trust before commencing with their dirty work. Look for the red flags- they are often starting right back at you.

As I tell everyone, the true test of customer service/ethics is not when things go right, it's when things don't go right and/or when advantageous opportunities arise. In short, assume everyone is out to dick you over until they prove over a long course of time and finally prove otherwise.

That said, I consider the system a dual edged sword. In some instances it may be better than nothing and give some insight into prior experiences, while in others it might give a prospective customer confidence that they really shouldn't have.

Ultimately as you said, people have to use common sense, ask the hard questions, and not let people jerk them off. If someone is having a problem, and in doubt- start a thread in the buyer and seller forum. No matter how insignificant the loss might seem. Call it out.

Let the community help you, that's what it is here for. A lot of members with a crap ton of experience buying/selling/modifying/racing can be found here that have been around the block so to speak.

As to the implication behind the thread... while the forum can't be responsible, it wouldn't hurt to use caution as advertising often leads new users to assume promotion.. which seldom is the case.

 

[docjohn]

Wouldn't that be a good thing?

I don't see any problem with Mark being confronted with the history he created.

The problem will be the sensless back and forth between his supporters and detracters.Happens every time there is a pro dali thread or a nay.The other side chimes in and we blabber along people getting all hot.RSO used to chime in on his threads when he was freshly burned,heck any of us who are regulars hate to see members take the plunge and come up empty.I'de be pissed as you are.Those of us who don't have the emotional investment in wanting to see him punished can look objectively at this,,and If he has'nt been banned yet, then that seems to be an unlikely event in the future.He obviously uses prime and logs on so If Lud can accept some variation of RSO's paradigm I'd like to see that.

 

[NSX Prime]

I'm allowed to picket a bad vendor's B&M store in real life; I would have hoped this concept would transfer to Prime. However, here I'm restricted to the equivalent of reporting the store to the BBB, and we all know how much good that does. Being unable to picket the seller where the buyers actually are, while the seller is still allowed to advertise where the buyers actually are, seemed rather unbalanced to me, and that's what raised/raises my ire. It was especially off-putting to have it pointed out that it was I who was in danger of losing access to Prime, and not the other way around.

Analogies between the online world and the real world can be difficult things. One popular example would be people who claim that downloading copyrighted music/movies is the same as stealing the CD/DVD from a store. The two acts are significantly different for very fundamental reasons, making that a deeply flawed analogy which does nothing useful to further serious discussion about intellectual property rights and electronic file sharing.

Likewise I think there are some problems with your analogy between replying to every thread a vendor posts with a "beware of this vendor" warning and your right to picket a business in the real world. In my opinion the real-world equivilent of being allowed to picket in protest is being allowed to post a complaint in the Buyer/Seller/Vendor Experiences forum and leave negative iTrader feedback which is linked directly to their profile.

What you are wanting to do - post a warning as a reply to every thread from a vendor in the Vendor forum - would be more analogous to being allowed to go into the store and interrupt every conversation a customer was having with a salesman to inform them that the store ripped you off. I am fairly certain doing so is not within your rights and that you will be arrested for trespassing. Again this is not a perfect analogy by any means but from my perspective it is a lot closer.

Anyway, it is not really my intention to get into an analogy debate. But I believe it is safe to say you and I do not seem to hold the same views on this issue so I thought I would make an effort to point out where we appear to differ in the hope you may understand my position better. We may still disagree, but that is life.

 

[nicholas421]

You've been a member of Prime since 2002. Did you not know of Dali's reputation when you placed your order?

Can you answer this? If you knew, and still ordered... do you still think you did "NOTHING wrong"?

 

[Aiken Drum]

Can you answer this? If you knew, and still ordered... do you still think you did "NOTHING wrong"?

Sorry, I missed that one. I knew there'd been a few problems with Dali, but my knowledge was just from passing by a couple of threads and was not terribly specific. I was not aware there were as many problems as there were.

Normally, with a new vendor, I would have researched them at length. However, as others have also said, I had previously done business with Dali when I first got my car years ago, and it seemed fine at the time. I don't think he had the extensive history then that he has now, but I'm not sure. All I know is at the time I felt okay purchasing something from him. Anyway, based on that, and a general feeling of imperfection-but-not-impropriety since then, I ordered again. Sure, I should have re-checked his history, but I didn't.

I'd like to point out that an unwise mistake may be foolish, but it's not actually wrong. I've not done wrong. Taking someone's money and not giving it back is wrong.

Wise vs. foolish is not the same thing as right vs. wrong, and absolutely does not balance the scales between me and Mark.