Ignition Key Mystery

[Old Guy]

When I purchased my 2000 NSX, it only came with two keys (thank - you some previous owner!). Recently, I thought I should look at getting another key made up. When examining the keys, I noticed that they are not identical.

The key with the red Acura markings clearly lacks some of the indents for engaging the pins in the lock cylinders. However, both keys work just fine in the doors, trunk, glove box and the ignition (the immobilizer accepts both keys). It is also clear from the wear markings on the key with the red Acura symbol that it has been used a lot. Does anybody have any idea what is going on here? Would the original key on a 2000 model year have the silver marking or the red marking? Although both keys appear to work just fine, I am in a bit of a quandary as to which key to use when I get a new key cut.

I initially thought that the key with the red Acura symbol might be the learning key referred to in the owners manual, hence the different cutting. However, the Acura dealership advised me that the learning key would be all red and they were at a loss as to why two different keys with different cuts (neither of which is cut as a valet key) would work on my car. The only take away that I have so far is that the key I have with the red symbol is not a learning key.

Although they were a bit fuzzy since nobody at the dealership had dealt with key replacement for an Acura model with a learning key (sometimes it looks like all of their employees were born after the NSX was brought to market), their general consensus was that they could not produce a replacement key without the learning key and the key tag number. I know from searches on Prime that other owners have been able to get keys with immobilizers cloned. What I couldn't find out was whether they used their learning key in the cloning process or whether they were able to get a clone just using their regular key and whether they required the key tag number.

I talked to a locksmith about cloning a key with an immobilizer chip and he said sure, what kind of car. When I told him an Acura, his response changed to 'maybe, depending on the model and vintage'. Naturally, he was not familiar with the NSX specifically; but, he did say that if it was an Acura with the separate learning key, he thought he could successfully clone the key and that he did not require the learning key to generate the clone. The latter comment makes me wonder what the purpose of the learning key was, unless it has just been supplanted by newer cloning technology

So, aside from what is going on with my two keys and which one I should use for cutting the blank, can anybody confirm that you can clone the chip on a 2000 model year key using just the regular key without the key tag.

Thanks for any help.

 

[CStricker]

Perhaps a stupid question, but do they both work?

 

[jwmelvin]

Are they both the same color?

 

[Old Guy]

Perhaps a stupid question, but do they both work?

Are they both the same color?

You guys are too quick - I had to answer the phone so I saved the post. Full details included in the edit!

 

[jwmelvin]

My 2000 car came with two keys with red markings like yours and an all-gray valet key. Interestingly, I cannot see any difference between the valet key and the others but it does not fit in the glovebox keyhole and does not open the trunk.

Since I do not have a red learning key, I am most interested in what you can find out regarding the cloning process.

 

[NSaneXr]

I can tell you about my experience and it might help. I have a 1997 which I think was the first year with the immobilizer. I was only given the valet key when I purchased the car. When I took it to the Acura dealer they cut a new key for me but only then they realized that they needed the red learning key to program the system to recognize the new key's chip. That key opens all the locks but will not start the car as the immobilizer doesn't recognize the chip.

I then took the valet key to a locksmith and they cloned the valet key's chip code onto a blank and then cut the key. The locksmith's key works in all the locks and starts the car. I've been using that key for 4 years now.

So my understanding is the Acura blank key has a chip that is already programmed with a code. The red key is used to program the immobilizer to recognize the key with the pre-programmed code. The locksmith actually programs a key with an already existing code (that code is already recognized by the immobilizer).

For what it is worth, I was told by Acura that the only way to get a new red key is to replace the immobilizer. I think when it was all said and down it was going to be about $1000 from the dealership for parts and labour. I also talked to somebody that said it was possible to reprogram the immobilizer to recognize a new red key (in other words hack the system) but I didn't look too much further into that option.

 

[Old Guy]

I can tell you about my experience and it might help. I have a 1997 which I think was the first year with the immobilizer. I was only given the valet key when I purchased the car. When I took it to the Acura dealer they cut a new key for me but only then they realized that they needed the red learning key to program the system to recognize the new key's chip. That key opens all the locks but will not start the car as the immobilizer doesn't recognize the chip.

I then took the valet key to a locksmith and they cloned the valet key's chip code onto a blank and then cut the key. The locksmith's key works in all the locks and starts the car. I've been using that key for 4 years now.

So my understanding is the Acura blank key has a chip that is already programmed with a code. The red key is used to program the immobilizer to recognize the key with the pre-programmed code. The locksmith actually programs a key with an already existing code (that code is already recognized by the immobilizer).


For what it is worth, I was told by Acura that the only way to get a new red key is to replace the immobilizer. I think when it was all said and down it was going to be about $1000 from the dealership for parts and labour. I also talked to somebody that said it was possible to reprogram the immobilizer to recognize a new red key (in other words hack the system) but I didn't look too much further into that option.

That kind of jives with the various story lines that I received, particularly the bit about the red key putting the ECU into a learning mode. The owners manual does warn against trying to use the red key to operate the ignition with words to the effect that you may make the original keys inoperable (perhaps you erase the stored code if the ECU is not capable of storing more than one immobilizer code). In fact, because of that I was leery about trying my red key in the ignition until I had confirmed that it was not 'the red key'.

I also received a similar story from the dealership that in the absence of a learning key, I had to purchase a completely new set of keys and immobilizer (presumably they meant the immobilizer daughter card in the ECU). Although, if you know the key code for the new keys, the dealership should be able to reprogram the ECU immobilizer board with the new codes and the new learning key since this is something that they have to do if there is an ECU failure. You don't have to buy new keys if you get a new ECU, although maybe you do if you lack the learning key to reprogram the new ECU with your existing codes!

The fact that the locksmith was able to read the code off of your valet key and create a clone key is excellent news. I will try a trip back to the locksmith I talked to and advise as to whether I am equally successful. Now I just have to figure out which of my two non identical keys I want to use as a master to cut the clone.

Update:

Just because I was curious, I looked up the NSX parts catalogue. Part # 04809-SZ3-A04 is a new immobilizer complete with new learning key. I am guessing that if my ECU ever dies, I will also be on the hook for a new learning key and immobilizer. To further feed my curiosity, I will have to check the service manual to see exactly what the procedure is for installing a new ECU and getting it to recognize the existing keys.

Further update:

Apparently the immobilizer box that comes with the learning key sits within the steering column. These guys offer an interesting service:

http://www.ezcarkeys.com/Honda-Acura-Lost-Key-Service-HON-Immo.htm

 

[simplife]

I have never seen an "all red learning key" and always assumed it was the key with the red markings as shown in the original post. Can someone please clarify and possible post a photo of this all red key?

 

[jwmelvin]

I do not have mine any more, as it went with my prior car (a '97) but "the red key" is clearly different from a black key with red markings. The plastic on it is all red and it comes in something like a blister pack. It looks special and different.

Here:
http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f238/99rs/3079977_9.jpg

 

[CStricker]

I do not have mine any more, as it went with my prior car (a '97) but "the red key" is clearly different from a black key with red markings. The plastic on it is all red and it comes in something like a blister pack. It looks special and different.

Here:
http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f238/99rs/3079977_9.jpg

I have supposedly all the keys that originally came with my car (2000).

The keys (besides the remotes) look like what jwmelvin posted, except that the two "regular" keys have the red Acura logo, like the left key in the picture the OP posted.

 

[99 rs]

I do not have mine any more, as it went with my prior car (a '97) but "the red key" is clearly different from a black key with red markings. The plastic on it is all red and it comes in something like a blister pack. It looks special and different.

Here:
http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f238/99rs/3079977_9.jpg

Use the codes and it will appear in the forums ;)
[URL=http://s48.photobucket.com/user/99rs/media/3079977_9.jpg.html][IMG]http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f238/99rs/3079977_9.jpg[/URL]

 

[vivanshah]

everything I've read says that if you get an acura T5 key, any locksmith should be able to clone a working key to the blank & cut it, and it should work just fine.

I wonder if it is possible to get a valet key made given that I only have the 2 regular keys.

 

[Old Guy]

everything I've read says that if you get an acura T5 key, any locksmith should be able to clone a working key to the blank & cut it, and it should work just fine.

I wonder if it is possible to get a valet key made given that I only have the 2 regular keys.

The info about the T5 blank is interesting. My key with the silver marking has T5 stamped on the blade, the key with the red marking has nothing on the blade. Perhaps as jwmelvin notes, the red key is original and a previous owner acquired a new key. The key with the silver marking certainly has a lot less wear on it than the one with the red marking.

I did a little reading in the service manual. As NSaneXr noted, in the Honda system, each key from Acura comes with a unique code. The Immobilizer unit can store up to 5 key codes according to the service manual. The red learning key is used to put the immobilizer into the learning mode to learn a new key code. When the immobilizer is put into the learning mode, all of the key codes are erased and have to be re entered if you want to continue to use those keys. Hence the warnings in the owners manual and the service manual about never attempting to use the red key to start the car. Do that and the car will be dead, although if you have the red key you could presumably use it to reprogram the immobilizer with your key codes (if you didn't lose the keys).

The external immobilizer system with the learning key only seems to have been used on 3 Honda products, the NSX, one other Acura and the Honda Prelude (the guy at the Acura dealership kept on talking about the red key in the Prelude system). There are some discussions on the web that you can use the red key to put the immobilizer into the learning mode and then program new and existing codes back into the immobilizer; however, the service manual says you need to use the Honda PGM tester to do that and I could not find any procedure in the service manual for doing the reprogramming. The short answer appears to be that if you use the red key to try a start, your going to be calling a flat bed to haul the car to the dealership (and hope that there is somebody old enough at the dealership to remember how this now obsolete system works).

What remains a bit of a mystery to me is that even though the immobilizer is separate from the ECU, the service manual clearly states that if the ECU is replaced, the new ECU needs to be programmed with the vehicles existing codes using the Honda PGM tester. I could not find any reference as to whether they need the learning key to do this. If they do, and my ECU ever dies, I am screwed as I will likely have to buy a new immobilizer with its matching learning key.

Its no wonder that Honda only used this system on 3 models.

 

[Old Guy]

Just to bring this to some closure, the locksmith was able to successfully clone and cut a replacement key which works just fine. The cost was $47 Cdn or around $36 US at the current exchange rate.

The locksmith made an interesting observation. I had given him the key with the silver marking for cloning. His first observation was that this was not an original key which I had suspected. He based this on the fact that the key had those two extra little tits which the key with the red marking lacked. He said that the Honda keys never have this and it is a result of being duplicated in a particular type of machine (can't remember what he called it). He said if there was a problem with the key, we could recut using my red key; however, the duplicate seems to work just fine. His final comment is that if you want to get the best quality duplicate key, bring in your key code. He said that in the past, even with customers that have missing key codes (me!), Honda has been good about providing the key code based upon the VIN.