Khumo Tires vs. OEM

[Paul65K]

OK so I know I'll get flamed for this question but here goes:

I am looking for tire options to run on my 97 NSX with factory wheels. I have read many of the posts and I can see that most "Purists" are certainly recommending the OEM designed Yoko's or Bridgestones, and agree that this will certainly provide the max performance capable of the NSX chassis.

That being understood my question is two-fold:

1. By going to a direction specific but not position specific tire such as the Khumo ECTSA Supra 712 what will be the trade-off in real world street driving

2. Will "plus 1" sizing specifically 225/45/16 & 255/40/17 (vs. 215/45/16 & 245/40/17) respecticely dramatically affect the general feel of the car.

At the risk of sounding like a cheepskate I just got off the phone with Tirerack and they quoted $411 for all 4 tires delivered to me in S. CA. 1/2 price is a compelling reason to at least explore the benefits/detriments of this option.

The comments about these tires is generally favorable, and I realize that there will certainly be some trade-offs vs the OEM specific tires, but I was hoping that we could begin a rational discussion on ths subject and would appreciate any and all experience and opinions.

In my experience there is certainly no "Free Lunch" but there are certainly better lunches for the money than others.

------------------
97 NSX-T Black/Tan
00 Mercedes 430CLK (Cab)
93 Cadillac Allante (Northstar)
98 GMC Sierra
00 HD Dyna WideGlide
83 Cessna 303 (Crusader)

[This message has been edited by Paul65K (edited 13 January 2003).]

 

[Larry Bastanza]

Paul,

I cannot comment about this specific tire, since I have never had them on the car. I do know some folks have been happy with them. My experience was with a different tire, Yoko AVSi's and they were a bad choice for me.

One other comment is "Plus 1" sizing is not a change in width, but rather a change in rim size. So 16/17 changed to 17/18 is "Plus 1" as it is used anytime I have heard it.

In your tire size data you did not change the aspect ration of the tires, just the width. In your specific case mentioned I would see little difference based on the sizes, mainly the tire choice.

I am sure some folks that use these will comment. I have a 1991 with 15/16 and I just will not compromise the OEM tires for the street. If my car got heavy track use, I am sure I would be looking at other tires though.

HTH,
LarryB

 

[matteni]

I just bought a set of OEM 16/17 Yoko's for $650 from Discount Tire Direct.

Assuming the OEM tires will last a year and the Khumo's will last 2 years - does $37/month sound like a good deal for inferior tires that are the most imporant "performance" part of the car?

I am a convert as I have tried most of the cheaper alternatives and can tell you it is worth it IMO.

That said I must admit there are some on this board with more Khumo experiance and have used OEM that seem very happy. Most of these people have much bigger wheels and can no longer get OEM.

------------------
Nick M

91' Red/Black with Many Mods
99' Honda Odyssey with Many Kids

 

[jlindy]

If you look at the rating of the Kuhmo's vs. the Yoko's, Kuhmos actually have a higher rating and are $59 per for the fronts and $78 per for the rears. (vs. $165 and $205) However, not being designed for the car changes things some, but is 3 times the price for Yoko's worth it for pleasure driving? Not to me when these tires only last 10k at best on the NSX. I would go with the Kuhmos. I have heard good things about these tires.

 

[nsxtasy]

It doesn't make sense to spend $30-90K in order to get the supercar performance of an NSX, and then compromise that performance in order to save $37 a month in tires.

 

[nicholas421]

Originally posted by nsxtasy:
It doesn't make sense to spend $30-90K in order to get the supercar performance of an NSX, and then compromise that performance in order to save $37 a month in tires.

you're assuming we all bought an nsx purely for its supercar performance. some of us bought it because it's just a cool car. to us, the extra $37/month does not make the nsx any cooler.

to answer paul's question:
i have had oem, toyo, and now kumho tires on my nsx. in "real world street driving", i have not noticed any differences. however, i should mention that i am not an experienced driver on the track, and i do not push my car to the limit on the streets.

[This message has been edited by nicholas421 (edited 15 January 2003).]

 

[Ponyboy]

It kinda depends on the owner's intention with the car doesn't it? I mean if all you're concerned about is getting to work and/or going to do some errand then I'd think the Kumho's would be fine. All I'd be concerned about for that use is braking and wet weather performance. Both of which, the Kumho's are fine at.

That said, don't ever buy Nitto 450's. I bought some extra rims and these tires came with. Being the cheapo I am, I couldn't see wasting a set of tires just b/c they were the hardest, worst traction, ugly tires I've ever seen or rode on. After 17,000 miles they still have tread. Lovely. Demon Nitto's give my nightmares.

As with all things, choosing a tire is a process of evaluating and balancing various criteria. For those who those the less expensive Kumho, you now have more money to buy the Kumho R compounds.

 

[ncdogdoc]

If you have never had OEM type tires (Yokos or Bridgestones), then you will not necessarily notice the difference. If your car now has OEM tires, you will definitely notice the difference. Is the difference worth the money? Only you can answer that question.

Now having stated the obvious, let me go farther. I used the RE010's for over one year on my car, and loved them every minute. I do track my car and got tired of the rapid wear and lack of interchangability. I am now using SO3's, which in my opinion are the best all around tire made. Now that I have a track only car and will be using R compound tires, I will probably go back to RE010's on my street cruzer, just because of the crispness in handling, and the fact that I want the best for that one in a million situation where the tire saves my ass!!

If you are looking for something that works for everyday driving back and forth to work, etc., then look at the SO3's. Last almost as long as the Kuhmos, are great in the rain, and handle 90% of the OEM's. Also look at Bridgestone RE730's. Wear forever, handle rain or shine, and have a very aggressive looking tread pattern to go with your "cool looking car", plus the right sizes are there. JMHO.

------------------
Gary Yates
1995 Red/Tan Boooleevard Cruzer
1992 White/Black Track Rat
2002 Red and White Cooper S - for sale, please inquire

 

[nsxtasy]

Originally posted by Ponyboy:
It kinda depends on the owner's intention with the car doesn't it? I mean if all you're concerned about is getting to work and/or going to do some errand then I'd think the Kumho's would be fine.

If all you're concerned about is getting to work and/or going to do some errand then I'd think an Accord would be fine.

 

[john576]

Just my .02
Replaced my Integra Type-R oe(potenza re010 195/55VR-15) with Kuhmo Supra 712 205/50 VR-15. Well they were great in the rain, but I could not wait for them to wear out. I felt they compromised handling limits of the car.

I replaced by NSX oe(pots) with Pilots and love them.

 

[NSXT]

If you look through the TireRack's survey and user reviews, I think you'll find that the Yoko ES100 gets better ratings for heavier vehicles like the NSX, and cost is very similar to the Kumho 712.

As far as those A022 purists, that tire design is almost 15 years old. Newer designs such as the AVS Sport, S03, etc, have more grip, last significantly longer, have excellent turn in response, and cost much less.

 

[Lud]

Kumho 712s are in the same class as tires like Dunlop SP8000.

These tires generally have considerably less grip than OEM or comparable tires. They also tend to last longer and be less expensive.

Tires like that compromise the car's dry handling without a doubt, but if that is not a concern, try a set.

 

[NSX Prime]

I used Kumho's on my turbocharged Lexus with great results. Main reason for choosing them was because they were cheap, and I would go thru a set every 3-5k miles. (606hp + 4k LBS doesn't work well..lol) They would stick very well on dry pavement....but forget even trying to shift while the ground is wet. That's just my personal opinion.

I haven't tried them on the NSX yet, I have some Goodyear Eagles that came with it, but as soon as these wear out, I'll be putting some Kumho's on it to see how they work on this car.

 

[ncdogdoc]

Originally posted by NSXT:
As far as those A022 purists, that tire design is almost 15 years old. Newer designs such as the AVS Sport, S03, etc, have more grip, last significantly longer, have excellent turn in response, and cost much less.

I take it you have never driven on these tires? Even if they are 15 years old, they are made specifically for the NSX and no other vehicle, which still puts them in a league by themselves. I like the other tires you mention, but there are compromises no matter what you choose.

------------------
Gary Yates
1995 Red/Tan Boooleevard Cruzer
1992 White/Black Track Rat
2002 Red and White Cooper S - for sale, please inquire

 

[darcon]

I purchased my car with Falken Ziex on the rims. Being aware of the tire wear issues confronting the NSX, I was immedietely on the lookout for a replacement tire. I found the tires wore longer than I expected them to. As my driving skills improved [with attendance at several racing schools] I was curious about the performance I might gain with OEM tires. I had resolved to purchase a set this past spring when taking my car out of its winter hibernation. Frankly my finances dictated that I consider other options. [We're not talking politics here so I won't get into why] I learned from my parents that I will always be "too poor to buy cheap stuff"! But sometimes you just have to get the best that you can afford. I decided on Kuhmo tires and I can tell you without a doubt that they are a DAMN GOOD TIRE. I do not do burnouts or donuts, but I will drift through an off ramp every so often, and the grip of these tires is significantly better than the Falkens I was used to. I feel that they wear a bit more quickly than the Falkens but in the wet they are also significantly better. The February issue of Road & Track has an article comparing Kuhmo's to Michelins Pilot and I think a BF Goodrich tire, the results are quite impressive. I have never had a set of OEM tires on my car. but for what it's worth the decision to go with Kuhmo has been a very pleasing one.

[This message has been edited by darcon (edited 17 January 2003).]

 

[NSXT]

Hehehe. That's right, you got me dogdoc. Actually I've never driven on any tires at all, the SP8050 isn't my favorite of the 'NSX Spec' tires, and I my lap times aren't less with AVS Sports compared to the A022. And, yes, the A022 is in a league by itself, particularly in the rain.

Back to Paul's original questions,
1) Real world street driving on a 712 will be cushier, the car won't follow pavement irregularities so much, and will be slower responding. Not bad, just slower. That feel of the rear helping you through a turn will also be reduced if not go away completely.

2) The 225/45/16 and 255/40/17 sizes will not dramatically affect the feel of the car. The softer sidewalls and less grip of the 712 will be more noticable than the small size difference.

Should you decide on the 712 or ES100, please let me know how you like them...or not.

 

[nsxtasy]

Originally posted by NSXT:
As far as those A022 purists, that tire design is almost 15 years old.

No, it's not.

Originally posted by NSXT:
Newer designs such as the AVS Sport, S03, etc, have more grip, last significantly longer, have excellent turn in response, and cost much less.

Wrong again.

The A022H tires have more grip than the AVS Sport and about the same as the S-03.

The turn-in response on the A022H exceeds that of the AVS Sport or the S-03.

And the AVS Sport doesn't even come in stock sizes for the NSX.

 

[Lud]

Originally posted by nsxtasy:
The A022H tires have more grip than the AVS Sport and about the same as the S-03.

Just out of curiosity, are you basing that on "seat of the pants" or are you comparing some sort of test numbers? I was thinking about trying a set of S-03's next time.

 

[nsxtasy]

Seat of the pants. There aren't many tire-to-tire measured test results out there, even fewer that are specific to the NSX and its OEM tires.

No sleight against the S-03, which many folks believe to be the best general-application tire on the market today. But they're not designed for the NSX and they're not corner-specific and they don't have the built-in bias in each tire to work with the NSX alignment to maximize precise turn-in.

Try 'em and let us know how you like 'em.

 

[Lud]

OK, I was wondering if you discovered some cool new test data or something! I'm surprised Tire Rack doesn't do it. Maybe testing tires like that does not translate to real-world results?

I keep hearing good things about the S-03 so I think I'll definitely have to try them next. Thanks.

 

[matteni]

Originally posted by Lud:
OK, I was wondering if you discovered some cool new test data or something! I'm surprised Tire Rack doesn't do it. Maybe testing tires like that does not translate to real-world results?

I keep hearing good things about the S-03 so I think I'll definitely have to try them next. Thanks.

Really? I have followed threads on other boards and with maybe the exception of the old/new G-Force tires - I have never seen so many people bash the s03's vs the s02's or be down on the s03's vs some of their competitors.

I think the BMW guys are particularly hard on the S03's especially since they loved the S02's so much.

I have been hearing that the NSX folks who have tried them do like them - but maybe they didn't have as much experiance with the S02's. In either case - be very carefull with the S03's for the first 100 or so miles as apperently they are VERY slick until you break them in.

Keep us posted on how you do like them.

 

[project13nsx]

Hi guys, i'm new to this forum.

well anyways, in my experience, i'm using Kumhos on my daily driver(integra). Dry pavement is ok but when it pours, i sometimes get hydroplaning.

Personally, i love falkens 451. they grip well in wet or dry seasons.

 

[Paul65K]

Well I did it!

I installed the Khumos yesterday. I had a chance to take the car down to San Diego for a meeting today and put approx. 200 miles on the new tires. What a great day, 74 degrees so I took the top off, but I digress.

I had a chance to give them a good run and the best part is that I got a chance to run them over the Ortega Highway during the last part of the trip. For those of you unfamiliar with this Southern CA road it is a superb ~20 mile stretch of very curvy road going from Sea level to 2500 and back to sea level. We had an NSX get together last weekend which I had the good fortune to lead so I have a pretty good comparison.

I had Michelin Pilots in the factory sizes (215/45/16 & 245/40/17) previously and installed the Khumos in 225/45/16 & 255/40/17 respectively. Here are my observations:

Ride comfort: No Perceptible difference

Slow Speed: Khumos seem to turn easier at very slow speeds (Could be the newness of the tires).

Freeway: Less wandering and following of lines in pavement

Curves: Probably 95% of the stickiness of the Pilots. Hard to compare 100% tread with 20% tread, but these are my observations.

I plan to attend the Camarillo Autocross next month so this should give me a chance to really ring out the new tires, I'll report back later.



------------------
97 NSX-T Black/Tan
00 Mercedes 430CLK (Cab)
93 Cadillac Allante (Northstar)
98 GMC Sierra
00 HD Dyna WideGlide
83 Cessna 303 (Crusader)

 

[coolnsx]

I'm glad to hear you going to the autocross, I look forward to seeing you, Jean and the new treads. I'm glad your having fun with the car.

 

[nsxtasy]

Those of you who are describing Kumho tires should be more specific and state which model of tire. Like most tire companies, Kumho makes an entire line of different tire models, everything from R compound track tires that will stick like glue, to family car tires that will last 80,000 miles on your Accord. Different tires for different purposes, with different design criteria. Tell us which one you're talking about.