Lexus LF-A Supercar still on track for production

[Silver F16]

"Tough times haven’t delayed Lexus LF-A

The current global economic slump has curtailed several future vehicle plans, including Honda’s next-generation NSX supercar, but Toyota has announced the tough economic climate won’t be sidelining its foray into the supercar segment.

Toyota is predicting its first ever operating loss for the fiscal year that ends in March 2009, but the Japanese automaker apparently has enough cash on hand to keep its supercar program up and running. According to Autoexpress, Toyota’s Lexus luxury brand is continuing development of its LF-A supercar, with the hopes of producing at least a few racing-spec models in 2009. Earlier reports had the LF-A delayed until at least 2010.

The news that the LF-A is still on schedule for a 2009 launch also signifies that Lexus engineers may have had a performance breakthrough. Part of the reason for the original delay was that the LF-A couldn’t best the Nissan GT-R’s and Chevrolet Corvette ZR1’s sub 7 minute 30 second ‘Ring lap times. Lexus engineers were adamant about not launching the LF-A until it could match the competition, so the news that it is inching towards production is a good sign the LF-A is closing in on that goal."



http://www.leftlanenews.com/tough-times-havent-delayed-lexus-lf-a.html

 

[theman1990]

In other news, Lexus has developed a system that can only be accessed by technicians utilizing a secret code that will unlock a substantial amount of horsepower and change the transmission's operating parameters. Use will immediately void the warranty, and use more than a few times will result in a catastrophic car explosion...

 

[BD]

In other news, Lexus has developed a system that can only be accessed by technicians utilizing a secret code that will unlock a substantial amount of horsepower and change the transmission's operating parameters. Use will immediately void the warranty, and use more than a few times will result in a catastrophic car explosion...

You forgot to mention six month later, Lexus will move the secret code after loosing its reputation as the most reliable car manufacture, so the car will be as reliable as all 0-60 in 5 second super car. Like the NSX.:biggrin:

 

[WingZ]

Um I thought or remember reading in autoblog that the LF-A did beat the GT-R
http://www.autoblog.com/2007/12/28/lexus-lf-a-unseats-porsche-gt2-as-king-of-the-ring/

 

[Midnight_Raven]

Do you think Toyota initially said they we going to postpone the LF-A due to the Honda super car being just as fast and cheaper? Now that the Honda super car is no longer going to exists they now have a reason to put their car back out since it no longer will have a cheaper rival.

 

[WingZ]

Do you think Toyota initially said they we going to postpone the LF-A due to the Honda super car being just as fast and cheaper? Now that the Honda super car is no longer going to exists they now have a reason to put their car back out since it no longer will have a cheaper rival.

Hmmm possible but the LF-A has always been a mystery to me as it's been around for years and they even made a convertible but never gave a release date

 

[NA1R]

Toyota has made a great choice. With the LF-A concept lurking around for almost 3yrs. To abandon it now would seem silly. As for ASC concept honestly, it's better to be dead than actually making it into production, guys, honestly I am not feeling the new styling from US design house. Just simply boring and not appealing enough in this supercar market. Just look at R8, DBS, DB9, etc. Those are hot. While ASC is not!...
So maybe it's better to have a hot looking Lexus LF-A then the luke warm ASC. I still believe in Honda one day will bring back the NSX replacement. Just not now thats all.

 

[pegi]

I still believe in Honda one day will bring back the NSX replacement. Just not now thats all.

I believe also, someday there will come new "nsx". When times is better...

 

[N Spec]

I believe also, someday there will come new "nsx". When times is better...

I concur and by then I may be 30-40 years old and hopefully I will be much more capable of buying a new one as compared to used ones. Also I believe they will resurrect it the right way next time as in lightweight MR. Very well could be electric/hybrid if not some other alternative fuel. I patiently look forward to it

 

[1SICKLEX]

Toyota still internally wants a serious showing in F1 to celebrate this car with. History as of late has not been kind.:frown:

 

[NetViper]

On autoblog today:

"The rumored demise of the Lexus LF-A is also open to debate – yet again – and according to Lyon's logic, after Toyota made the decision to continue its Formula One campaign, the automaker "still wants to bring its first true supercar to market." The V10-powered luxo-coupe is supposedly 12 to 18 months off and pricing is expected to retail for close to $340,000."

$340,000!! Are they insane.

 

[WingZ]

On autoblog today:

"The rumored demise of the Lexus LF-A is also open to debate – yet again – and according to Lyon's logic, after Toyota made the decision to continue its Formula One campaign, the automaker "still wants to bring its first true supercar to market." The V10-powered luxo-coupe is supposedly 12 to 18 months off and pricing is expected to retail for close to $340,000."

$340,000!! Are they insane.

I just saw that. Plus Nissan is making a GTR sedan and SUV while Honda is redoing the "Beat" ??? WTF!

This article says the S2K replacement is still a go though... for late 2011 Come on now give me a break!

http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/News/articleId=139967

 

[TC]

On autoblog today:

"The rumored demise of the Lexus LF-A is also open to debate – yet again – and according to Lyon's logic, after Toyota made the decision to continue its Formula One campaign, the automaker "still wants to bring its first true supercar to market." The V10-powered luxo-coupe is supposedly 12 to 18 months off and pricing is expected to retail for close to $340,000."

$340,000!! Are they insane.

Setting the current economy off to the side for a moment. It's 2011 and a person has $340k burning a hole in their pocket. Will they want a car that has been running around the car show circuit and Internet for the past 6 years or something new that has just hit the market? There is a reason why car companies go to great lengths to hide their cars from the public until they are ready (or about ready) to launch - because the excitement for just about ever car goes down with time. The hottest car in 2011 will be on sprung on the public in 2010.

 

[Silver F16]

That Edmunds articles is one of the only sources confirming S2000 is still a go. This conflicts with what many other reports are saying. Nevertheless, I hope Edmunds is right.

As for the $340K, don't believe everything you read, Toyota is not that dumb.

 

[NSXGMS]

I just don't understand all the secrecy. What's wrong with saying xyz car is going to happen and the price will be x but obviously now's not the right time to release it or even direct our energy towards it. We want to make money.

The V-10 idea is frankly just stupid. I will always believe for the rest of my days (unless proven otherwise) that Honda found that out the hard way. I cannot for the life of me figure out why Toyota and Honda are pushing for a V-10 so hard. The V-8 can be made to do just about anything the V-10 can do and is exponentially easier to work with. Sure, with enough money you can do anything but what you get is a ludicrous price like $340K.

I promise you anyone with $340K to blow on a car most likely will not be buying an Acura or Lexus. It just doesn't work that way. That would be like pricing the original NSX at $170K in 1991 dollars or about twice the price of the F348 since $340K is about 2x the price of an F430.

Personally, I don't think it's a stretch to think that either Honda or Toyota could make a V-8 car that's better looking and faster than the GT-R. Just lay it out and tell us the real scoop or pack it in and tell us to wait 3 years. At this point I do not believe one word about the status of these cars. I'll believe it when I see it.

 

[swerve2007]

the v-10 issue is purely for marketing purposes as a feature that ties it to the F1 effort- plus it is different.

 

[NSXGMS]

the v-10 issue is purely for marketing purposes as a feature that ties it to the F1 effort- plus it is different.

I'm aware of why but those reasons are lame. V-10 may sound cool but has it really done that much for the M5/M6 or Gallardo's sales? F1 doesn't use V-10s anymore anyway.

It's different because everyone and their mother knows V-10s are difficult to work with and have essentially avoided them for 90 years. Plus, it ain't cool when it never comes. Trashing this idiotic V-10 idea will remove a huge weight from the engineers' shoulders and allow the development of a world-class high-output V-8 that will be better for the car and for the company.

We all know Honda is capable of 120 hp/L and that's all they'd need in a 4.0L V-8. Small, compact, powerful and reliable and normally aspirated. Same goes for Toyota.

Personally, I think a 4.0L V-8 is much cooler than a V-10. And that engine would have much closer ties to F1 than a V-10 now.

 

[TC]

I'm aware of why but those reasons are lame. V-10 may sound cool but has it really done that much for the M5/M6 or Gallardo's sales?

Lambo sells about 1,700 Gallardo's per year, which is a very respectable number in the $180-220k price segment. Would the sales volume have been higher with a different engine configuration? We'll never know but the V10 Gallardo has to be considered a very successful product.

I think the car to watch is the Audi R8. Will the V10 model outsell the V8 model?

 

[BD]

Lambo sells about 1,700 Gallardo's per year, which is a very respectable number in the $180-220k price segment. Would the sales volume have been higher with a different engine configuration? We'll never know but the V10 Gallardo has to be considered a very successful product.

I think the car to watch is the Audi R8. Will the V10 model outsell the V8 model?

You will probably see a flock of R8 enthusiasts who bought the V8 put them up FS and go after the V10 model; therefore, yes. However, they will also find out the hard way when every one tries to get out of the V8 car and the value will plunge even more than already a tough used car market - not to mention it's a super car.

As for the argument of V10 from Honda and Toyota, there is no point of follow Ferrari's foot step. I'm for one have always found V12 to be stupid, too big and heavy and cause balance issues of a car during the design process.

If you have a 5 plus liter V10, you can hyper rev it to get the same HP potential of V12 with weight similar to that of V8.

Regardless of the talk of marketing, I do believe there is a great reason why F1 teams choose V10 as a standard platform for over 10 years.

In fact, even though this is race engine talk, Ayrton Senna used to tell McLaren and Honda to put the V10 back into the car and get rid of the V12.

 

[NSXGMS]

Lambo sells about 1,700 Gallardo's per year, which is a very respectable number in the $180-220k price segment. Would the sales volume have been higher with a different engine configuration? We'll never know but the V10 Gallardo has to be considered a very successful product.

I think the car to watch is the Audi R8. Will the V10 model outsell the V8 model?

I don't think there's any doubt that the V-10 has helped M5/M6 and Gallardo sales and will help the sales of the "RS8" variant.

Audi and BMW have admittedly had a fair amount of success with their V-10s. I don't suggest they haven't. But there are certainly a few differences between these companies and Toyota/Honda and my point is that the V-10 is not a worthwhile project for Honda and/or Toyota.

I think it's fair to say that any engine that comes from Toyota or Honda is going to be built to a higher standard (as it will be expected to be) than anything BMW or Audi is going to release. Ever. Many of the world's top engine experts have gone on record saying the current high-output V-10s are likely to have serious problems past approximately 60K or so miles. We're just now beginning to see some M5s approach that territory and it will still be quite some time before we see any Gallardos get there.

I have no reservation in saying that I believe it is very possible that BMW and Audi would release an engine that they knew would have an average lifespan of less than 100K miles before major problems, particularly in the specific cars that use those V-10s. Both the BMW E60/61 and Gallardo are cars that probably won't be owned by the original owners at that mileage point. In addition, the high price of those cars, particularly the Gallardo, offsets much of the substantially higher cost of developing a worthy V-10 (as opposed to a V-8 or V-12). If the RS8's V-10 turns out to be a great engine it will only have been possible by virtue of the Gallardo offsetting the costs of development. Lamborghini has afforded Audi that luxury.

People will typically pay the higher cost associated with a Lamborghini but they typically will not for a Acura or Lexus. Anything can be done with enough money but my position is that a successful V-10 built to Honda's or Toyota's standards is simply cost prohibitive. I believe it's almost certainly the case that both Honda and Toyota discovered that it was virtually impossible to create a V-10 that would be as reliable as any other given engine in their lineup without breaking the bank--either in terms of designing a better engine or eating future repairs. And they don't have a platform to hone their V-10 and offset their costs like Audi's Lambo. Honda and Toyota are going to want to hit the ground running and early problems will not be looked upon kindly and will further hurt Honda's bottom line which is already hampered by the inability to price a car as high as Lambo and have it sell well. Honda's and Toyota's warranties will ostensibly be longer than BMW and Lambo and these potential major engine repairs are going to brutalize them.

At least Toyota has multiple V-8s in their lineup and the time and money to tinker around with goofy projects. But since this is a Honda forum I rail on them the hardest. I just cannot comprehend how or why Honda would spend a dime on developing a V-10 before a V-8.

Again, nothing against V-10s personally. I'm for all types of engineering and development and would think it was very cool to see Honda develop a 550+hp 5.0L V-10 that would last 200K miles but from a company and business standpoint it is nothing but dumb and unnecessary. Which is fine--it ain't my money. But I, as an NSX and Honda enthusiast, want a finished product and the further they go with this asenine V-10 idea the further they drift from a finished product, I fear.

 

[NSXGMS]

Regardless of the talk of marketing, I do believe there is a great reason why F1 teams choose V10 as a standard platform for over 10 years.

In fact, even though this is race engine talk, Ayrton Senna used to tell McLaren and Honda to put the V10 back into the car and get rid of the V12.

That very well may be but racing applications and regular road-going production applications are two completely different things entirely. The problems associated with V-10s, from what I have read, appear to be long-term issues. Those issues can be dealt with when an engine is only supposed to last for one race weekend as all the F1 V-10s were.

The design approach for an F1 engine is essentially night and day from a production engine where it counts. Also, since all the teams have to abide by the formula and frequently get their engines from the same place it's not any more cost prohibitive for any constructor to dump money into a particular engine. They are all spending the same amount and are all playing on the same level field.

In contrast, Honda and Toyota can't spend as much as Audi, for example, on engine development for a particular regular-production car. Lamborghini offers a very unique platform for something like this and is an excellent way to offset the cost of something like engine development. And to be sure, regardless of whether the Audi V-10 evolves into an engine that is great the cost of the RS8 will be astronomical, further offsetting development costs.

 

[BD]

That very well may be but racing applications and regular road-going production applications are two completely different things entirely. The problems associated with V-10s, from what I have read, appear to be long-term issues. Those issues can be dealt with when an engine is only supposed to last for one race weekend as all the F1 V-10s were.

The design approach for an F1 engine is essentially night and day from a production engine where it counts. Also, since all the teams have to abide by the formula and frequently get their engines from the same place it's not any more cost prohibitive for any constructor to dump money into a particular engine. They are all spending the same amount and are all playing on the same level field.

In contrast, Honda and Toyota can't spend as much as Audi, for example, on engine development for a particular regular-production car. Lamborghini offers a very unique platform for something like this and is an excellent way to offset the cost of something like engine development. And to be sure, regardless of whether the Audi V-10 evolves into an engine that is great the cost of the RS8 will be astronomical, further offsetting development costs.

I agree with you on pertty much every thing. As for the cost, I don't think Honda or Toyota is thinking about cost effectiveness. Honda could have stick the C30A/C32B into another car and call it a day, but they didn't to protect the prestige of NSX ownership.

I think they'll be fine with the V10, if Audi and BMW can do it, Honda/Toyota can do better.

For laughs and giggles, I found this on Youtube. I personally don't believe Honda completely killed the NSX replacement, I believe they simply shelf it. There is no reason to completely scrap a project that is almost product ready. I bet you if the economy start to recover by the end of this year, they will bring it back in a year or two.

I'm sure this was taken before the announcement, but the video was not posted till January 1st of this year. I can't get over that sound. If you listen to the exhaust sound carefully, it has a greater dynamic range than the LF/A prototype. Deeper and higher depend on RPM range. More than one octave.
<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/iO3lSPsAaY0&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/iO3lSPsAaY0&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

 

[NSXGMS]

I agree with you on pertty much every thing. As for the cost, I don't think Honda or Toyota is thinking about cost effectiveness. Honda could have stick the C30A/C32B into another car and call it a day, but they didn't to protect the prestige of NSX ownership.

I think they'll be fine with the V10, if Audi and BMW can do it, Honda/Toyota can do better.

I can't really believe cost is a non-issue--even in the development of the original NSX.

True, Honda didn't use the C30/32 for anything other than the NSX but they did develop the C30 from the Legend. Also, I highly doubt Honda would have continued to pursue the development of the NSX as fervently had the approaching economic crisis been known. A project like the NSX was even riskier then. A Japanese performance car and $60,000? No one thought it would work, let alone sell in poor economic times.

And yes, Honda/Toyota can do anything that anyone else is doing better but at what cost? The NSX was still an extremely costly project and clearly no manufacturer wants to lose money. While Honda surely knew the NSX wasn't going to be a profit machine I do believe that Honda expected to lose much less. At some point Fukui, who wasn't interested in spending any more money on the NSX, just decided to ride it out since it was the flagship and was able to remain relevant for a remarkable amount of time.

The NSX project was done right in just about every way. The innovations the NSX introduced were cost-effective and smart and addressed many areas the competition lacked. The V-6 was the perfect engine at the time and they even used an existing platform. Things like VTEC and Ti connecting rods could be adapted to other cars and accomplished things that nothing else could. That's not the case for a single-platform V-10.

The V-10 idea is one that just makes absolutely no sense for Honda or Toyota--especially Honda. There are so few advantages to such an engine and so many drawbacks. From the start the engineer is swimming against the current. Honda could easily accomplish the same or better results starting from even ground with a V-8. The marketing benefits for a V-10 surely do not offset the enormous development costs and liabilies of creating a lightweight, high-output, extremely reliable V-10. And at the end of the day Honda still has no V-8 and a V-10 that probably can't be used in any other car.

Again, at least Toyota already has V-8s and the resources to tinker with stuff like this. They also have a similar (but far from equal) luxury as Audi-Lambo to sell cars for a higher price through Lexus. Acura has a far less respected brand and will get hurt if it tries to sell an ASCC for $150K. The LF-A has a much better chance of returning money at $150K or even $200K than any $150K+ Acura.

So, in conclusion, I'm not against the V-10 as a concept. I think it's a poor idea for Toyota and an inane and disastrous idea for Honda. As I said, I'm mainly frustrated because I'm convinced that the longer Honda pursues this dead-end the longer it will be before anything comes to fruition.

I want to buy from Honda. I have money to spend and if Honda actually produces something I like they'll have my money. I have no problem with the ASCC necessarily, and even though it's not my cup of tea, at least it's a choice. But forcing a V-10 in the ASCC is only going to delay its production or kill it. My logic tells me that a better company direction in terms of creating a performance car the more likely it is to happen. The V-10 is the wrong direction, IMO.

 

[BD]

There you go, a car with sensible engine choice:biggrin:
http://www.nsxprime.com/forums/showthread.php?t=117102

 

[NSXGMS]

There you go, a car with sensible engine choice:biggrin:
http://www.nsxprime.com/forums/showthread.php?t=117102

I think both the M3 and R8 V-8s are great but Honda could do so much more. It's just beyond reason that Honda has no V-8 and seems hell-bent on a V-10.