Manual Shift Lesson

[TigerNSX]

Hi,

It's been almost 6 years since I have driven a manul car. Even back then, I did not get all the skills down completely. I want to practice manual shift before I receive my car. The clutch in the car is fairly new, and I don't want to burn it fast.

I have called around numerous rental car services, but none of them carried a maual shift car. Plus, I never drive my friends' cars (personal reason). Do you know any place where I can get a POS rental car with a manual shift? Any other alternatives?

Thank you in advance.

 

[fangtl]

This is an expensive route but consider getting a really cheap manual car, learn it with that and once you've accustomed yourself to shifting, just sell the car.

 

[NSX2NV]

You may want to try an exotic car rental place and see if you can get an NSX. A quick google search came up with this site. Not sure if they have any NSX's though.
http://www.exoticcarrental.com/

 

[Joel]

While we're on this subject (I drive an automatic and not accustomed to stick either):

When I come up on a red light during regular street driving, I never bother with downshifting. I just shift it to neutral from 4th or 5th gear and slow to a stop. I do the same thing when going downhill and just shift to the appropriate gear once the road plateaus.

Is this bad for the car (clutch, gears, etc)?

 

[nsxtasy]

Originally posted by Joel:
When I come up on a red light during regular street driving, I never bother with downshifting. I just shift it to neutral from 4th or 5th gear and slow to a stop. I do the same thing when going downhill and just shift to the appropriate gear once the road plateaus.

Is this bad for the car (clutch, gears, etc)?

No. There's no need to downshift when braking to a stop. You can leave it in gear until the point when it might bog (revs below 1500 RPM) and then put it into neutral from there, using the brakes to slow the car down.

I'm not sure I understand the additional question about going downhill. If you're going downhill at the same speed you were driving when level, you can leave it in the same gear. If you are on a very steep downgrade, so steep that the car would accelerate with your feet off both pedals, you can downshift to a lower gear to use the engine compression to keep the car from accelerating, rather than riding the brakes all the way down.

 

[DocL]

Originally posted by Joel:
While we're on this subject (I drive an automatic and not accustomed to stick either):

When I come up on a red light during regular street driving, I never bother with downshifting. I just shift it to neutral from 4th or 5th gear and slow to a stop. I do the same thing when going downhill and just shift to the appropriate gear once the road plateaus.

Is this bad for the car (clutch, gears, etc)?

It's not bad for the car, but it's bad for you if you get into a situation where you need to accelerate. Having the car in neutral means you have no control of the car. There have many times when I needed to get out of someone's way where braking would have caused bigger problems. Such as someone merging onto the road without looking.

Do yourself a favor and always leave the car in gear when it's moving. Plus, you get to hear the sound of the cams and exhaust right behind you all the time!

 

[TigerNSX]

Thanks for the suggestion. I guess that my only option is to rent one from an exotic car place or buy a POS car

 

[nsxtasy]

Your other option is to learn on the NSX. I think that's acceptable - if you can have a friend instruct you - someone who is knowledgeable enough to tell you how to match revs, and to tell you how there's a zone of engagement ("sweet spot") which is progressive in nature when you're starting from a stop. Not just someone who will yell at you: "let out the clutch", "keep your foot on the gas", "you idiot", etc.

Sorry, bad memories...

 

[Lud]

I know not too long ago at least some franchises had some manual transmission cars in their US fleets. Dollar Rent A Car or maybe Budget comes to mind but I'm not positive on that.

If you travel out of the US much, standard transmission cars are COMMONLY available for rent all over the world (in many places they are the norm and automatics are uncommon). I've even rented right-hand-drive standard transmission cars before, which (along with driving on the left side of the road) took about an hour to really get used to.

 

[O-Ace]

I say just learn on the NSX. Considering you've driven/owned a manual before, I don't think you'll do too much damage. And buying a used car just to learn how to drive a manual is kind of a waste (unless you're REALLY bad at it, I guess)

I learned driving on a manual, and I think it's kinda like riding a bike. You don't really forget it, even if you haven't driven one in years.

-Awais

------------------
2001 QuickSilver Corvette Coupe - Not Stock [503 RWHP, 545 RWTQ]

2002 Black Acura 3.2 TL/S

www.RacingFlix.com

 

[chrisvain]

so wait, is it undesirble to downshift when slowing down? when i first started driving stick i was told its better for the engine, and i have been doing it since/its a habit already.

 

[fangtl]

Originally posted by chrisvain:
so wait, is it undesirble to downshift when slowing down? when i first started driving stick i was told its better for the engine, and i have been doing it since/its a habit already.

You can always downshift when slowing down, but then you are using the drivetrain to slow you down rather than the brakes...so the answer to your question is yes and no, if you are slowing down for a turn, then rev match/double clutch and downshift. If you are slowing down to a stop, pop it into neutral and use the brakes.

 

[TigerNSX]

Originally posted by fangtl:
if you are slowing down for a turn, then rev match/double clutch and downshift. If you are slowing down to a stop, pop it into neutral and use the brakes.

What exactly is rev match/double clutch? Is there a FAQ for this information? I know that rev matching is a way of double clutching, but how do you exactly match the rev?

Thank you.

 

[Lud]

Originally posted by Tiger740:
What exactly is rev match/double clutch?
I know that rev matching is a way of double clutching, but how do you exactly match the rev?
Thank you.

Rev matching is not a way to double clutch, though as part of double clutching you will typically rev match.

People can go on for days about the nuances of all this, but in short...

Rev matching means while you have the transmission between gears during a shift, you use the throttle to match the RPM of the engine to the RPM it will be when you put it into whichever gear you are getting ready to shift into. This is typically done by "blipping" the throttle. See "heel and toe" below.

Double clutching (aka double declutching) is, in my opinion, not really needed in a modern car with a syncrhonized tranny, but you can still do it and some will argue it offers benefits on the race track because it matches shaft speeds, etc. in addition to engine speed. If you ever drive some commercial vehicles, a really old car or truck, or a vehicle with a blown synchro, it can be a very handy skill to know. Basically you:

1) Get off the throttle and disengage the clutch (pedal down).

2) Shift the transmission to neutral

3) Engage the clutch (pedal up).

4) Blip the throttle to match shaft speed to speed of new gear. (see heel and toe below)

5) Disengage clutch (pedal down)

6) Shift from neutral into desired gear

7) Engage clutch (pedal up) and apply throttle as needed

1 - 3 can be done quickly or slowly
4 - 6 must be done quickly
If 7 is done quickly, the engine will be 'rev-matched' to the rest of the drivetrain


Heel & Toe is the somewhat mislabeled technique whereby you use your right foot to both brake and blip the throttle at the same time. I say it is somewhat mislabeled because most people in most modern cars use the side of their foot more than the actual heel to blip the throttle, but do whatever works best for you. To heel and toe, you put the forward part of your foot securely on the right side of the brake and press the brake to slow the car. While doing that, you roll your foot to the right to blip the throttle. The exact position of your feet during all this depends on the car and pedal placement, the size of your feet/shoes, and your driving position. This is how you can double clutch and rev match when it counts most - under braking as you go into a turn.

This all takes practice. I suggest starting with heel-toe rev matching, then work up to double clutching.

 

[O-Ace]

Originally posted by fangtl:
If you are slowing down to a stop, pop it into neutral and use the brakes.

Actually, I'd say leave it in gear, and come to a stop using the brakes, and then pop it in neutral. As a general rule, if the car's moving, keep it in gear.

-Awais

------------------
2001 QuickSilver Corvette Coupe - Not Stock [503 RWHP, 545 RWTQ]

2002 Black Acura 3.2 TL/S

www.RacingFlix.com

 

[TigerNSX]

Originally posted by Lud:
This all takes practice. I suggest starting with heel-toe rev matching, then work up to double clutching.

Thanks, Lud, as always (this applies to other members, too)!

 

[D'Ecosse]

Originally posted by Tiger740:
... The clutch in the car is fairly new, and I don't want to burn it fast....

Back to your original question, the best & simplest advice is just don't ride the clutch partially engaged. Shifting between gears you shouldn't have any problems - starting & stopping & where you can create situations that are wear inducing:
The clutch wears when its "slipping" against the flywheel or plate surfaces - it will not experience any wear either when completely engaged, or completely disengaged. So just get the pedal in & out again in expedient fashion & avoid situations like, for example, when starting on a hill, to slip the clutch & hold it only partially engaged as you start to move off (instead - use your hand-brake to assist you - release it just as the clutch starts to bite, then release the clutch pedal the rest of the way smoothly & efficiently)
For stopping, again as posted above, down-shift through the gears as you approach a stop, then only disengage the clutch at the last possible moment as you come to a halt. I typically down-shift from 5 directly to 3, then 2 then stop: you can engage 1 immediately, ready to move off with clutch disengaged, or just hold in neutral depending on how long your "stop" is likely to be (you won't wear the clutch at stop with gear selected & clutch fully dis-engaged, pedal-down - you leg will just get tired!)
Good Luck!

 

[PHOEN$X]

Driving a manual sure is a good way to build up your leg muscles!

I learned to drive stick on the Stealth that I purchased new, and it didn't cause any undue damage or extra wear & tear. Just go for it, you'll be a natural in no time!

 

[fangtl]

Originally posted by O-Ace:
Actually, I'd say leave it in gear, and come to a stop using the brakes, and then pop it in neutral. As a general rule, if the car's moving, keep it in gear.

-Awais

So if I am in fifth and I am coming to a stop light, I shouldn't just pop it into N and coast to a stop? Instead I should leave it fifth (w/ my foot on the clutch so it wouldn't bog) until the car's not moving?

 

[Joel]

This is confusing.

I've always thought "engaging" a clutch means step on it all the way and "disengaging" it means just letting it go.

So a partially engaged [riding]clutch (which wears it out) means it hasn't been let go all the way or it hasn't been pressed to the floor all the way?

Arrgh. Maybe I should have gotten an automatic. I want to know before my car gets here.

 

[D'Ecosse]

When the clutch is "engaged", it means the clutch is transferring power from the engine flywheel to the transmission. (so when the pedal is "up" that is the default condition - clutch is "engaged")
When you wish to remove the coupling of the engine flywheel to the transmission (i.e to shift gears, or to remove drive from the wheels) you want to "disengage" the clutch (by depressing the pedal)

 

[JoeSchmoe]

Back to your original question of what to do about manual transmission practice.

Maybe you should call up your local driving school and sign up for a couple hours of stick shift "lessons". Tell them you already know how to drive but want a refresher course. The instructor will just be along for the ride -- but he might also notice your bad habits, etc and give pointers. The best part is you get to beatup his car.

Cost should be ~40-60 an hour. This should be a lot cheaper than grinding gears on your NSX

 

[O-Ace]

Originally posted by fangtl:
So if I am in fifth and I am coming to a stop light, I shouldn't just pop it into N and coast to a stop? Instead I should leave it fifth (w/ my foot on the clutch so it wouldn't bog) until the car's not moving?

Yes, and no. Doing this is still better than popping it in neutral and letting it coast. I wouldn't want to coasting at 40 Mph in neutral. Personally, I would downshift to 2nd or 3rd as I was slowing down to keep the revs up a bit. Then, when the car has almost come to a stop, disengage clutch and pop it in neutral.

 

[TigerNSX]

Thanks all for your help. I have just figured out what I am going to do.

I just noticed that I will be out of the country for a month before my car gets here. The country that I will visit has mainly manual shift cars. I get just get a manual shift rental there, and have someone who is very good with manul shift ride along with me.

I guess that I got lucked out again.

Thanks for your help, and happy holiday!

 

[fangtl]

Originally posted by O-Ace:
Personally, I would downshift to 2nd or 3rd as I was slowing down to keep the revs up a bit. Then, when the car has almost come to a stop, disengage clutch and pop it in neutral.

Okay now you've confused me, was I taught wrong from the very begnning?

Why use the engine to slow down the car when you have the brakes?