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Mr. Kerry, War Hero
- Thread starter Spencer
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nkb said:
Here are some links about other countries that also provided information about WMD before the war.
Australlia:
http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=sto...q_australia_attacks_intelligence_040722162919
Denmark:
http://www.spacewar.com/2004/040419181733.x7tow1jx.html
I also remember information from Russia and other countries, but I am too lazy to look them up right now.
Here is the link where Kerry said even knowing everything we know today he still would of voted to go to war with Iraq:
http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20040810/ap_on_el_pr/kerry_24
So it is amazing to me that so many people are blaming everything on Bush when Kerry himself says even with what we know now he would of still invaded.
nkb said:
Absolutely, I think we might of tried more diplomatic solutions as there wouldn't be a huge hurry if Iraq wasn't amasing a fortune in oil. If we didn't keep them out of Kuwait what is to stop them from continuing to concur that region? Iraq didn't expect us to stop their invasion of Kuwait, even with the oil.
I will agree it was a more urgent matter because they also generate a lot of oil that would give Iraq even more resources to increase their army and make them more dangerous.
Both of these links talk about intelligence reports used for each respective country to justify joining the Iraq war. Nowhere is it stated that our government used this intelligence. In fact, in the first article, it states:Carguy! said:
That implies that Australia did not contribute information, but rather analyzed the same information as the US and UK.
Carguy! said:
Sounds like we better worry about ourselves then, because no other country comes close on any count. Our economy is huge, we spend almost as much as the rest of the world combined on military, we are the only ones who have used nuclear weapons on other people, and we have certainly invaded more countries than anyone else in recent history.
But let's say for some reason the US is special and we should only apply those criteria to OTHER countries (hmm, I wonder why we are sometimes viewed as arrogant). Based on the "ability and intent" WMD argument, how can you possibly put together a case for invading Iraq over North Korea, other than the fact that North Korea could actually fight back?
While North Korea is poor, they are dumping huge amounts of money into military spending and as a result they have both serious conventional forces plus they have publically stated that they are ignoring various nuclear proliferation bans and are actively working to develop nuclear weapons, and they are known to be well ahead of anything Iraq was suspected of in that regard. That is much more serious and immediate than anything Iraq was ever charged with in the WMD arena. Oh yeah, they also hate the US and their leader is a total wacko.
And isn't that a lesson to every tin pot dictator to build up their military and pursue development of WMD with all possible haste? If I were running Iran I would be working like crazy to build and hide a little stockpile of nukes right about now while the US is not really able to do anything about it both due to being over-extended as well as for political reasons.
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NKB: I'm not even going to answer your crap you copy and pasted about me. You ask me to back up my claims with facts, yet you do not.
As for other countries claiming they have or could have WMDs, the UN was one of the sources for that link I posted...that would qualify as several countries.
And wasn't there traces of weapon grade plutonium found in Iraq?? asking a question...
As for other countries claiming they have or could have WMDs, the UN was one of the sources for that link I posted...that would qualify as several countries.
And wasn't there traces of weapon grade plutonium found in Iraq?? asking a question...
If you don't have links to post about the "fishy" comment, or the paint-throwing, then just say so.Brian2by2 said:
Your statement implies that I have made unreasonable statements about you. Have I? All I'm asking is that you back up what you have stated, or admit that you don't really have a valid source for it.
As far as backing up my claims with facts, I don't think I've made many claims, so I'm not sure what you want me to back up.
When it comes to claims about the subject of this thread (Kerry's war record), I have offered the following links:
Dallas Morning News article
http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcon...tbox.a4584.html
FactCheck.org analysis
http://www.factcheck.org/article.aspx?docID=231
Have you read them? What are your thoughts, especially on the 2nd one?
nkb said:
www.georgewbush.com...you can find it there. didn't think you' dbe interested because it was his site.
I didn't mean you're talking personal attacks or anything, i was just referring to you copy and pasting everything i said. i'm on my way to the beach right now to go surf before Charley gets too strong so I'll post a little more later.
I was born in Texas in 1955. I registered for the draft in 1973. I still have my draft card. I voluntarily joined the US Air Force in 1974, immediately after I graduated high school. Had I not joined USAF, I very likely would have been drafted.
The US began its Viet Nam pullout in 1973, and was "officially" out of Viet Nam by 1975.
I did not serve in Viet Nam, but rather in California, with a few trips to Okinawa.
I was in Germany with Uncle Sam when the Soviets invaded Afghanistan. I was in Germany when the Shah of Iran was deposed and our fellow Americans and other allies were taken hostage in Iran.
I did not fight in Afghanistan. In fact, all we did was report for "alert duty" for a couple of days.
I did not participate in the failed hostage rescue attempt at Desert One, but again stood "alert duty".
I left the Air Force in 1982.
I joined the AF Reserve in 1987. I was in active reserve during Gulf War I. I was in active reserve during Desert Shield/Desert Storm.
I volunteered for duty in Desert Storm but was not selected.
I missed a few reserve weekends for various reasons.
I left the Reserves in July 1991.
Did I serve my country?
Am I capable of being President of this great nation?
The US began its Viet Nam pullout in 1973, and was "officially" out of Viet Nam by 1975.
I did not serve in Viet Nam, but rather in California, with a few trips to Okinawa.
I was in Germany with Uncle Sam when the Soviets invaded Afghanistan. I was in Germany when the Shah of Iran was deposed and our fellow Americans and other allies were taken hostage in Iran.
I did not fight in Afghanistan. In fact, all we did was report for "alert duty" for a couple of days.
I did not participate in the failed hostage rescue attempt at Desert One, but again stood "alert duty".
I left the Air Force in 1982.
I joined the AF Reserve in 1987. I was in active reserve during Gulf War I. I was in active reserve during Desert Shield/Desert Storm.
I volunteered for duty in Desert Storm but was not selected.
I missed a few reserve weekends for various reasons.
I left the Reserves in July 1991.
Did I serve my country?
Am I capable of being President of this great nation?
Brian2by2 said:
That link doesn't work. Going to the main website, I was not able to find anything when searching for "Kerry paint veteran". Please repost the correct address for that link.nkb[/i] [B]Please post that link said:
Looking forward to your elaboration on the "fishy" comment and the paint throwing allegation, and your views on the links I posted.
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Carguy! said:
Why did we not do anything when Indonesia invaded East Timor and killed over 100,000 people? Or when Israel invaded Syria and took over the "occupied territories"? Not only didn't we "hurry", but we didn't do anything at all, ever.
In both cases, there were numerous UN Security Counsel resolutions passed which condemmed these acts, and in both cases, the condemmed country did not follow the orders of the resolutions. Why did we not invade these countries as we did with the case of Iraq invading Kuwait?
And don't give for a reason that these other countries were our allies, because so was Iraq at the time.
Carguy! said:
Perhaps that is because a week before they invaded Kuwait, our assistant secretary of state visited Iraq and in a meeting with Saddam, told him that "the united states has no opinion on the matter of Iraq exanding their territory". This is with the knowledge that Iraq had been threatening Kuwait with invasion for over a year and had accused them of stealing Iraq's oil by "cross-drilling" over (under) the border.
Video recordings of this meeting exist and have been shown on TV, and you can see a big smile come onto Saddam's face after she told him that. It was her way of saying "go ahead and invade Kuwait -- you have our blessing".
Perhaps you should know that we did not have any type of sanctions against Iraq at this point in time. Iraq had been purchasing weapons from American companies for years. In fact, between 1984 and 1990, our government guaranteed loans to Iraq for over $10 billion -- meaning that if they failed to repay, the US taxpayers would repay the loans.
What was this money used for? Well, in 1984 they purchased Chemical agents from the Washington-based company American Type Culture Collection. In July 1988, four months after the incident in Halabja where the Iraqi army was accused of gassing 5000 Kurds to death, Bechtel was hired by Saddam Hussein's government to build a huge petrochemical plant that would give Iraq the ability to generate chemical weapons (before this, all their chemical weapons had been purchased from Europe and the US). Did the Reagan Administration attempt to block this deal? Of course not.
I copied and pasted your comments to show your inconsistencies.Brian2by2 said:
1. You implied that you believed the "foot fungus" story, then claim you were just asking.
2. You post that Kerry threw paint on returning veterans, then fail to back it up.
3. You make a statement implying that you know what it takes to dispose of WMDs, then turn around and admit you did not know.
4. You question every aspect of Kerry's military service, then claim that nobody is criticizing Kerry's service.
If you consider that "crap", then you have yourself to thank for it.
Eric5273 said:
This reminds me of what a friend of mine told me. He was an Iranian and a veteran of the Iran-Iraq war. He said that the only reason George W. Bush knows that Saddam has weapons of mass destruction is because his father (George senior) gave them to him.
As I quoted earlier, "The problems of today will not be solved by the minds of those who created them".
So let's review…
It seems that the facts, as some potentially partisan folks portray them, are that John Kerry put in for at least one or more of the Purple Hearts himself...that they were for very minor injuries…none of which required more than a few minutes stopping by the sick bay...and then he became apparently the only swiftboat commander during the entire Vietnam War to use the little known "three purple hearts and your allowed to go home" rule.
Good golly Miss Molly. If only we KNEW the real truth about it!
Well guess what?
You guys can argue all day long whether it's a partisan attack squad doing it, but what nobody has answered is the simplest question of all…
"WHY DOESN'T KERRY JUST FILL OUT THE STUPID FORM AND RELEASE ALL OF HIS RECORDS?"
If this is a bunch of crap, you'd think he'd be more than antsy to get the unvarnished truth out there.
(At least Bush has apparently released all of his available records. And in any case, it's a far more complete record than Kerry has ever provided. Gee, maybe the New York Times will get indignant and attempt to get Kerry to do the same. Nah…why bother…we all know it's just right wing misinformation about Kerry…heck, everyone knows that when the attacks were against Bush it was "objective" journalism in action. What a joke!)
It seems that the facts, as some potentially partisan folks portray them, are that John Kerry put in for at least one or more of the Purple Hearts himself...that they were for very minor injuries…none of which required more than a few minutes stopping by the sick bay...and then he became apparently the only swiftboat commander during the entire Vietnam War to use the little known "three purple hearts and your allowed to go home" rule.
Good golly Miss Molly. If only we KNEW the real truth about it!
Well guess what?
You guys can argue all day long whether it's a partisan attack squad doing it, but what nobody has answered is the simplest question of all…
"WHY DOESN'T KERRY JUST FILL OUT THE STUPID FORM AND RELEASE ALL OF HIS RECORDS?"
If this is a bunch of crap, you'd think he'd be more than antsy to get the unvarnished truth out there.
(At least Bush has apparently released all of his available records. And in any case, it's a far more complete record than Kerry has ever provided. Gee, maybe the New York Times will get indignant and attempt to get Kerry to do the same. Nah…why bother…we all know it's just right wing misinformation about Kerry…heck, everyone knows that when the attacks were against Bush it was "objective" journalism in action. What a joke!)
Spencer said:
I agree. Let's see all of the records. Let's see Rush Limbaugh's records so we can find out more about the drug addict he was. Let's see George W's records as governor, the records of how much money his family has received from the Saudis. Let's see all of the records from the 9/11 investigation. Let's see all of the records from the energy meetings with Dick Cheney. Let's see all of the records of George W. in relation to his multiple failed companies and the failed savings and loan. Let's see the Haliburton records from when Cheney was at the helm and they defrauded the government. (They recently admitted to this and paid a >$7million fine.) Let's see all of George W's criminal record. Let's just put it all on the table and clear up this whole big mess.
Never mind, I'll just post George W's record:
"I attacked and took over 2 countries.
"I spent the U.S. surplus and bankrupted the US Treasury.
"I shattered the record for the biggest annual deficit in history (not easy!).
"I set an economic record for the most personal bankruptcies filed in any 12 month period.
"I set all-time record for the biggest drop in the history of the stock market.
"I am the first president in decades to execute a federal prisoner.
"In my first year in office I set the all-time record for most days on vacation by any president in US history (tough to beat my dad's, but I did).
"After taking the entire month of August off for vacation, I presided over the worst security failure in US history.
"I set the record for most campaign fund raising trips by any president in US history.
"In my first two years in office over 2 million Americans lost their jobs.
"I cut unemployment benefits for more out-of-work Americans than any other president in US history.
"I set the all-time record for most real estate foreclosures in a 12-month period.
"I appointed more convicted criminals to administration positions than any president in US history.
"I set the record for the fewest press conferences of any president, since the advent of TV.
"I signed more laws and executive orders amending the Constitution than any other US president in history.
"I presided over the biggest energy crises in US history and refused to intervene when corruption was revealed.
"I cut health care benefits for war veterans.
"I set the all-time record for most people worldwide to simultaneously take to the streets to protest me (15 million people), shattering the record for protest against any person in the history of mankind.
"I dissolved more international treaties than any president in US history.
"I've made my presidency the most secretive and unaccountable of any in US history.
"Members of my cabinet are the richest of any administration in US history. (The poorest multimillionaire, Condoleeza Rice, has a Chevron oil tanker named after her.)
"I am the first president in US history to have all 50 states of the Union simultaneously struggle against bankruptcy.
"I presided over the biggest corporate stock market fraud in any market in any country in the history of the world.
"I am the first president in US history to order a US attack AND military occupation of a sovereign nation, and I did so against the will of the United Nations and the vast majority of the international community.
"I have created the largest government department bureaucracy in the history of the United States, called the "Bureau of Homeland Security"(only one letter away from BS).
"I set the all-time record for biggest annual budget spending increases, more than any other president in US history (Ronnie was tough to beat, but I did it!!).
"I am the first president in US history to compel the United Nations remove the US from the Human Rights Commission.
"I am the first president in US history to have the United Nations remove the US from the Elections Monitoring Board.
"I removed more checks and balances, and have the least amount of congressional oversight than any presidential administration in US history.
"I rendered the entire United Nations irrelevant. I withdrew from the World Court of Law.
"I refused to allow inspectors access to US prisoners of war and by default no longer abide by the Geneva Conventions.
"I am the first president in US history to refuse United Nations election inspectors access during the 2002 US elections.
"I am the all-time US (and world) record holder for most corporate campaign donations.
"The biggest lifetime contributor to my campaign, who is also one of my best friends, presided over one of the largest corporate bankruptcy frauds in world history (Kenneth Lay, former CEO of Enron Corporation).
"I spent more money on polls and focus groups than any president in US history.
"I am the first president to run and hide when the US came under attack (and then lied, saying the enemy had the code to Air Force 1)
"I am the first US president to establish a secret shadow government.
"I took the world's sympathy for the US after 9/11, and in less than a year made the US the most resented country in the world (possibly the biggest diplomatic failure in US and world history).
"I am the first US president in history to have a majority of the people of Europe (71%) view my presidency as the biggest threat to world peace and stability.
"I changed US policy to allow convicted criminals to be awarded government contracts.
"I set the all-time record for the number of administration appointees who violated US law by not selling their huge investments in corporations bidding for gov't contracts.
"I have removed more freedoms and civil liberties for Americans than any other president in US history.
"I entered office with the strongest economy in US history and in less than two years turned every single economic category heading straight down.
"RECORDS AND REFERENCES: I have at least one conviction for drunk driving in Maine (Texas driving record has been erased and is not available).
"I was AWOL from the National Guard and deserted the military during time of war.
"I refuse to take a drug test or even answer any questions about drug use. (wink,wink)
"All records of my tenure as governor of Texas have been spirited away to my fathers library, sealed in secrecy and unavailable for public view.
"All records of any SEC investigations into my insider trading or bankrupt companies are sealed in secrecy and unavailable for public view.
"All minutes of meetings of any public corporation for which I served on the board are sealed in secrecy and unavailable for public view.
"Any records or minutes from meetings I (or my VP) attended regarding public energy policy are sealed in secrecy and unavailable for public review.
I presided over the first overall loss of jobs since before World War I.
I presided over the first overall drop in the standard of living since 1953.
I oppose affirmative action and legacy admissions except when they benefit me.
I sat like a deer in headlights for seven minutes when told we were under attack.
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...like I said, you cannot answer the simplest question of all.
Spencer said:
You're right, I can't, how could I possibly know why John Kerry, a complete stranger, won't release personal information? How could I possibly know why any person I don't know, does anything? Why don't you ask him?
SCS2k said:
1. It's not 'personal' information when you run for that office.. He is running for the PRESIDENCY, for Pete's sake! When you run for President, the public expects, (as they did with Bush) to release everything...health records, driving convictions (remember Bush's DUI), educational records, etc.
2. It has become an issue because HE has made it so, by making it the centerpiece of his campaign.
3. Why don't I ask him? I don't need to. He has BEEN ASKED AD NAUSEUM BY PLENTY OF PEOPLE and he apparently refuses.
Like I said, you cannot offer any logical reason why he hasn't released the records. And you can attempt to deflect it all you want with the usual anti-Bush stuff. But in the end, you have no answer.
Snoopes has a record on this one as well:
The URL for this page is http://www.snopes.com/politics/bush/resume.asp
It is amazing how people will believe anything they read about someone they don't like!
Most of those statements are very misleading and can be construed multiple ways. They are missleading you, get a grip on reality.
The URL for this page is http://www.snopes.com/politics/bush/resume.asp
It is amazing how people will believe anything they read about someone they don't like!
Most of those statements are very misleading and can be construed multiple ways. They are missleading you, get a grip on reality.
SCS2k said:
"RECORDS AND REFERENCES: I have at least one conviction for drunk driving in Maine (Texas driving record has been erased and is not available).
"I refuse to take a drug test or even answer any questions about drug use. (wink,wink)
"All records of my tenure as governor of Texas have been spirited away to my fathers library, sealed in secrecy and unavailable for public view.
"All records of any SEC investigations into my insider trading or bankrupt companies are sealed in secrecy and unavailable for public view.
"All minutes of meetings of any public corporation for which I served on the board are sealed in secrecy and unavailable for public view.
"Any records or minutes from meetings I (or my VP) attended regarding public energy policy are sealed in secrecy and unavailable for public review.
[/B][/QUOTE]
Assuming you are correct that all records should be public (which I don't agree with) why won't Dubya release any of these? By the way you have yet to dispute or disprove anything posted by me above. The truth hurts doesn't it? I suggest you take off your partisan blinders and look at the person you support. Unless your name is Ken Lay or you are part of the Saudi royal family I can quarantee he doesn't give one lick about you.
"I refuse to take a drug test or even answer any questions about drug use. (wink,wink)
"All records of my tenure as governor of Texas have been spirited away to my fathers library, sealed in secrecy and unavailable for public view.
"All records of any SEC investigations into my insider trading or bankrupt companies are sealed in secrecy and unavailable for public view.
"All minutes of meetings of any public corporation for which I served on the board are sealed in secrecy and unavailable for public view.
"Any records or minutes from meetings I (or my VP) attended regarding public energy policy are sealed in secrecy and unavailable for public review.
[/B][/QUOTE]
Assuming you are correct that all records should be public (which I don't agree with) why won't Dubya release any of these? By the way you have yet to dispute or disprove anything posted by me above. The truth hurts doesn't it? I suggest you take off your partisan blinders and look at the person you support. Unless your name is Ken Lay or you are part of the Saudi royal family I can quarantee he doesn't give one lick about you.
Carguy! said:
I suggest you take a look at this:
http://idontfeelsogood.blogspot.com/2003_08_01_idontfeelsogood_archive.html
It's from the snopes page you referenced. I really don't care to argue any further. You are not going to convince me to vote for Dubya and I am not going to convince you either. We just have to agree to disagree and see what happens in November.
Well, that's the problem with your entire argument. They aren't facts. No matter how often you, Brian and others reiterate them, it doesn't turn them into facts.Spencer said:
All unsubstantiated allegations, albeit stated many times in this post as if they were true.Spencer said:
I'm not sure what form and what records you are referring to. What is Kerry refusing to sign? Are these records required to be released?Spencer said:
If releasing records is your litmus test as to whether someone is truthful, your candidate is, at best, in the same boat as Kerry.Spencer said:
If I have read correctly, there have been allegations about Bush never reporting to duty for the 3 months in Alabama. As far as I know, the attendance records have not been made public for those 3 months (no idea whether Bush needs to sign a release or not). The payroll records for the 1st quarter of '69 and 3rd quarter of '72 were reportedly accidentally destroyed by the Pentagon, shortly after a request from the Associated Press was made to obtain them. 3rd quarter of '72 happened to be the 3 months in question. Two weeks later, they were found, but shed no light on the situation either way.
The refusal of Cheney and the Bush administration to provide notes from the public energy policy meetings has been well documented.
As for the other allegations in SCS2k's post, about records being kept secret, I do not have any information either way, so I won't comment. If someone has unbiased links about that, I would love to see them.
I won't get into the other points in Dubya's "resume", but some are undisputed (record deficit, vacation days, for example), while others are unsubstantiated (AWOL from NG), and yet others are open to interpretation (whose fault is the downturn in economy).
A lot of this list is no better than the attacks on Kerry.
http://www.dallasnews.com/s/dws/news/dmn/stories/082204dnpolswiftboat.19760.html
This is a story from yesterday's Dallas Morning News, which originally ran in the Chicago Tribune.
Does this guy have more credibility than O'Neill?
This is a story from yesterday's Dallas Morning News, which originally ran in the Chicago Tribune.
Does this guy have more credibility than O'Neill?
