New NSX vs Nismo GT-R (same tires)

[RYU]

Thought this was interesting.

https://youtu.be/B3CuB6k5FaA

 

[NSX-SA]

Ive driving this track many times with my NA1 NSX best time 1:58 only 13 secs slower than NSX 2.0

 

[2015 NSX]

Pull the 500 lbs of batteries and electric motors out of the NSX and I bet it will make up those 3 seconds...

 

[fastaussie]

i'm surprised the GTR was significantly quicker than the NSX at Phillip Island honestly, i would have thought it the other way around.

this track should play more to the Honda and less to the Nissan...

 

[iforyou1109]

Given that this is a Nismo GT-R, which is comparable to Honda Type R, I'd totally expect the Nismo GT-R to win. Compared to even the GT-R Track edition, the Nismo gets an extra 55hp, an aero package that increases downforce by 220lb@186mph, stiffer dampers, springs, rear sway bar, etc. Given its super harsh ride, it better be outperforming the smooth riding base NSX.

 

[fastaussie]

the GTR is an aging car, a 9 to 10 year old design now. the NSX is as new as it gets, with a lot of high tech fanciness. it should be the other way around...

 

[iforyou1109]

the GTR is an aging car, a 9 to 10 year old design now. the NSX is as new as it gets, with a lot of high tech fanciness. it should be the other way around...

Yea, I understand the GTR is an aging car. But we also know that Nissan has been updating and fine tuning the car every year or 2. While the performance has increased, its ride comfort is still far from ideal, especially the Nismo version. The NSX is much more supple and easy to live with as a daily driver. I'm sure many 2G NSX owners can attest to that. Many reviews out there also mentioned this - you know, everyday's super car, so to speak.

It's like my 20 year old EK hatchback. It has a B16+B20 frankenstein engine with some coilovers. It can make short work of the latest Audi S3, Golf R, etc on a track. But I wouldn't say my EK is as comfortable as those cars.

I'd imagine the Nismo GTR is pretty much a maxed out version of the R35 GTR platform. On the other hand, like you said, the NSX is as new as it gets. It's just the beginning. Who knows what kind of potential it has.

You are right, it should be the other way around - provided that it's a 2G NSX Type R that we are talking about. Otherwise, it's a little bit of an apple to orange comparo I'm afraid.

 

[fastaussie]

there is no Type R, nor will there be a Type R in the foreseeable future. so the NSX you get today is the best there is for now.

it's been said before on this forum many times, any new model coming to market needs to be a few steps ahead of what's currently available. because we all know the next successive models (458 to 488, Gallardo to Huracan, etc.) will only get better.

apples, oranges, watermelons, whichever fruits you'd like to compare? car versus car, the old GTR beat the new NSX. by the time Honda makes a Type R, if they ever do, how much better do you think the next wave of Supercars will be?

 

[iforyou1109]

Sorry, but I think there's a bit of misunderstanding.

My point isn't to say whether there will be a Type R version or not. Granted, if you google Ted Klaus Type R, you will find many links about this possibility. But let's assume there's no Type R, then it just means there's no apple to apple (or orange to orange, watermelon to watermelon, whichever you prefer) comparison. One is a track car, one is a everyday's super car.

The Nismo GTR would smoke a R8 V10 too, even though the R8 is a much newer car, and it's the best there is now.

 

[fastaussie]

i dunno about that? the R8 is consistently 2+ seconds a lap faster than the NSX at most tracks in all of the comparison tests i've seen (which is all of them) over the last year. that should bridge the gap to the GTR in lap times at Phillip Island quite easily. the Audi also pulls much stronger than either car, from the bottom to the top. Phillip Island is a very flowing, high speed circuit, which will not favour the low-speed point-and-shoot style i think the GTR is more suited for. i've been around Phillip Island myself many times, i honestly thought the NSX would have been as quick if not faster there. it's a smooth flowing track.

for example, a track like Laguna Seca let's say, where the average speed is relatively low (compared to Phillip Island), if the R8 is consistently running laps 2.1 seconds quicker than the NSX, the gap in lap time will increase at a longer, faster track, especially one with a very long straightaway where the R8 will even further stretch it legs over the NSX. i'd expect 3+ seconds a lap difference there. accelerating out of MG, turns 11 and 12 onto the aforementioned long straight, the faster car will only be pulling further away. every mile per hour gained at the beginning, will magnify to 3 at the end of that straight. can't really make an absolute judgement without physically doing it on the same day, but i doubt the GTR Nismo is going to smoke an R8 Plus, especially at the island. granted, it does have a lot of fancy track bits on it, and the GTR does have a way of doing unthinkable things. i think the R8 would blaze around this track. it accelerates quicker, is lighter, and has a significantly higher top speed than the Nismo or Honda.

my original point, was that the newest incarnation of one car, should be at least equal with the highest performing variant of an outgoing one. especially what is now being sold as a virtually 11 year old model. think about that for a second...

 

[iforyou1109]

I wouldn't be surprised if the R8 is may be faster than the NSX and/or GTR on some tracks. But at the very least, C/D VIR test and R&T Performance car of the year test, the R8 V10+ was slower than both.

Agreed the Audi R8 V10 Plus would pull stronger than both NSX and GTR in a straight line.

I think the Laguna Seca lap times you are referring to are from the Motor Trend Driver's Car of the Year test. Unfortunately for the NSX, it had a bad rear alignment issue. You were in that discussion:
http://www.nsxprime.com/forum/showt...C1-Track-Review-Laguna-Seca-Randy-Pobst/page6

Not sure what the time is like after fixing the alignment and I guess we won't find out now...lol

I perfectly understand your point. So now if we go by C/D VIR figures, we can say the same thing about the R8 V10+ vs the Nismo GTR too. This is why I don't agree that the newest incarnation of one car should be at least equal with the highest performing variant of an outgoing one. It just doesn't quite work that way if the goal of one car is totally different.

A 2008 Viper SRT10 ACR coupe did 2:48.6 at the VIR by C/D. It's faster than many newer cars such as 2015 Nismo GTR, 2012 458 Italia, 2015 911 GT3, 2012 Corvette ZR1, 2016 AMG GT S, 2014 911 Turbo S, 2017 R8 V10+, etc. Think about that for a second....as the 4th gen viper was actually based on the 3rd gen viper that came out in 2002....

 

[fastaussie]

I wouldn't be surprised if the R8 is may be faster than the NSX and/or GTR on some tracks. But at the very least, C/D VIR test and R&T Performance car of the year test, the R8 V10+ was slower than both.

Agreed the Audi R8 V10 Plus would pull stronger than both NSX and GTR in a straight line.

I think the Laguna Seca lap times you are referring to are from the Motor Trend Driver's Car of the Year test. Unfortunately for the NSX, it had a bad rear alignment issue. You were in that discussion:
http://www.nsxprime.com/forum/showt...C1-Track-Review-Laguna-Seca-Randy-Pobst/page6

Not sure what the time is like after fixing the alignment and I guess we won't find out now...lol

I perfectly understand your point. So now if we go by C/D VIR figures, we can say the same thing about the R8 V10+ vs the Nismo GTR too. This is why I don't agree that the newest incarnation of one car should be at least equal with the highest performing variant of an outgoing one. It just doesn't quite work that way if the goal of one car is totally different.

it's admirable that you think these cars can't directly be compared to each other. perhaps not for you, and maybe other members of this forum also. but to 99.9% of the general public, Supercars are about one thing. speed. end of discussion.

the NSX went no quicker after the realigning of its tires. i spoke with the individual at the test who drove it personally and that is what he said. and this is why there was no updated faster lap time in any later issues of MT. if the NSX did go quicker, you'd have heard about it.

the Car & Driver test is an absolute rubbish test. they don't have one driver driving each car on the same day in equal conditions. they have multiple drivers of widely varying abilities driving groups of cars assigned to them over the course of several days (three if i recall). i know this also as i asked the EIC of C&D personally. this was the only test in which the NSX has beaten the R8. of the dozens of other comparisons, the R8 has smashed the NSX repeatedly. it is well known that the C&D Lightning Lap is not an accurate measuring stick of much, which as you would also know was discussed after that test came out.

many Primers said before the NSX debuted that it absolutely needed to be faster than the GTR if it was to be a success. how is that now looking in hindsight?

if you don't think that an incoming model should be better than the competition's outgoing model (especially the GTR which has been on the market for over a decade now), then it isn't really a competition at all is it?

 

[iforyou1109]

Hmm? I think you missed my point. Sure, most folks want speed for super cars. But, why do car makers make variants of their super cars? Look at Porsche 911. There's the Carrera, the S, the GTS, the GT3, the GT3 RS, the R, the Turbo, the Turbo S, the GT2. Why? If people just care about speed for super cars, why not just build a 911 GT2 and call it a day? 640hp is gonna be smoking fast.

To be honest i don't think the Philips island one is all that good either. Why was there a car blocking in front? Even if it wasn't blocking, all that hot air/exhaust certainly don't help things.

A 2008 Viper SRT10 ACR coupe did 2:48.6 at the VIR by C/D. It's faster than many newer cars such as 2015 Nismo GTR, 2012 458 Italia, 2015 911 GT3, 2012 Corvette ZR1, 2016 AMG GT S, 2014 911 Turbo S, 2017 R8 V10+, etc. Think about that for a second....as the 4th gen viper was actually based on the 3rd gen viper that came out in 2002....

 

[fastaussie]

i would presume the hot laps were done with clear track for each car, and that they just threw in some random video shot throughout the course of the day, otherwise it's obviously completely pointless.

did you really just imply that hot air from the exhaust of a car ahead will slow down a car's lap time?

p.s. do you know what ACR stands for? or know anything about that car?

 

[chrisn]

... to 99.9% of the general public, Supercars are about one thing. speed. end of discussion.

Agreed. As of 6/20/2017, the fastest current general production car (around a road circuit) that you can go buy brand new *today* is the C7 Z06.

 

[fastaussie]

Agreed. As of 6/20/2017, the fastest current general production car (around a road circuit) that you can go buy brand new *today* is the C7 Z06.

which road circuits are you talking about?

there are many different cars, that hold many production lap records, at many different circuits, at many different places around the world. and the Corvette does not hold any that i personally know of...

 

[chrisn]

which road circuits are you talking about?

there are many different cars, that hold many production lap records, at many different circuits, at many different places around the world. and the Corvette does not hold any that i personally know of...

I'm talking about new cars being built and sold now, that I can go buy for MSRP today. Can you think of a faster car around Laguna or VIR or any other track where the Z06 and lots of other fast cars have run.

 

[fastaussie]

i would say the Corvette ZO6 is currently hands down the best value for outright track speed per dollar, for brand new cars able to be bought at MSRP. i believe this is the point you are making?

 

[chrisn]

i would say the Corvette ZO6 is currently hands down the best value for outright track speed per dollar, for brand new cars able to be bought at MSRP. i believe this is the point you are making?

That point and this, stronger, one: The Z06 is the fastest car around most circuits when ranked against any other car that is in current production and can be purchase new TODAY at MSRP. Regardless of price. Not just "best value" but "fastest." Am I wrong on that? I don't see any rankings showing the Z06 slower than cars currently being (generally) produced. I haven't seen the LaFerrari Aperta widely tested-- maybe it's faster and I need to qualify as "under $1M"--- but still, my point stands, right?

 

[fastaussie]

the Hypercars (all three), some Supercars (McLaren 675, 488), and some upcoming Supercars (McLaren 720, Huracan Performante) are faster, on varying tracks. and all are more expensive, from $330,000 on up. so yep, i'll agree with you on your points...

 

[iforyou1109]

i would presume the hot laps were done with clear track for each car, and that they just threw in some random video shot throughout the course of the day, otherwise it's obviously completely pointless.

did you really just imply that hot air from the exhaust of a car ahead will slow down a car's lap time?

p.s. do you know what ACR stands for? or know anything about that car?

I would definitely hope the actual record laps were done with a clear track. I guess we won't find out unless they can confirm themselves.

I was implying that if that was indeed the actual lap, the hot air from the car in front would affect the aerodynamics of the car behind. I think we are all aware that modern cars, especially super cars, rely quite heavily on downforce to get around a track fast. And as you mentioned, that track is a high speed track. So I'd imagine aero would be quite important.

Haha yup, the ACR viper is no joke. Why?

 

[fastaussie]

sounds like you're thinking about F1 cars...

 

[iforyou1109]

Hahah, definitely more so for F1 cars...especially the hot exhaust part.