New Racing Brake kit

[john@johnhudakracing]

So "Johnny Trans Am" with the ITA-Super B spec C 1980's Turbocharged Trans Am that weighs 1,800lbs and has 800hp on 385 width racing slicks with 1 year under his belt and barely turns some fast times is the best person to learn from?

I agree with everything else u said.

Well... we are talking about braking Billy. If nothing else- with 800hp I sure hope that "Johnny Trans Am" has at least figured that one out. I am an optimist. So you, never know, you could learn something. That's what always makes my DE days brighter. :biggrin:

 

[stuntman]

Well... we are talking about braking Billy. If nothing else- with 800hp I sure hope that "Johnny Trans Am" has at least figured that one out. I am an optimist. So you, never know, you could learn something. That's what always makes my DE days brighter. :biggrin:

:biggrin:

Hmm..

Isn't Turbo2Go's car Supercharged?

If so his car will probably carry a lot more speed in the straight than a stock NSX, doubt that the stock NSX brakes would be able to handle the abuse, unless he has some serious ductuing going on. Running on non R-compounds tires aggrevates the problem as well.

Just my 2cents.

Yes supercharged, yes more speed, 130 isn't bad into the busstop (not too heavy of a braking zone at Watkins Glen). Non R-comps = less grip to work the brakes, so it wouldn't aggregate hte problem as much as gripppeir tires would.

 

[Daedalus]

They might take off a millimeter or two, nothing substantial, but enough to 'clean' the rotor.

Gah, they better not! 1mm = .039". A typical brand new rotor only has about .100" (.080" on the NSX) of wear/turning before it's done, half that on each face. Again a compromise between longevity, performance and weight. I usually take off around .005" on each side, roughly the thickness of typical copier paper. Of course if it's warped you'll need to cut more. My local Pep Boys charges $10/rotor.

 

[stuntman]

Gah, they better not! 1mm = .039". A typical brand new rotor only has about .100" (.080" on the NSX) of wear/turning before it's done, half that on each face. Again a compromise between longevity, performance and weight. I usually take off around .005" on each side, roughly the thickness of typical copier paper. Of course if it's warped you'll need to cut more. My local Pep Boys charges $10/rotor.

+1 i agree

 

[TURBO2GO]

I'm aware of the differences between unsprung and sprung weight - if you implied otherwise. It is widely-held that 1lb of unsprung weight = 5,6,7,8,10lbs of sprung weight:

What am I missing here? Unsprung weight can be a caliper... a bracket... a suspension component. Right? If it does not spin, it is not rotational mass... and therefore is no different to the engine or brakes than regular sprung weight... How is it that you should multiply non-rotational unsprung weight by ANY number, when the only thing it affects, as long as it is not rotating, is suspension behavior and ride quality?

You are saying "it is a widely held belief that 1lb of unsprung weight =5,6,7,8,10 lbs of sprung weight", but shouldn't that say "rotational mass"? A caliper that is 3 pounds lighter isn't going to affect your acceleration or braking any more than saving 3 pounds by driving around a passenger with smaller boobs. Right?!

I am saying the RB argument is wrong because he is piling in both rotating mass (the rotor) and non-rotating mass (the caliper) under the same category and then multiplying that by 5. This is incorrect.

 

[stuntman]

What am I missing here? Unsprung weight can be a caliper... a bracket... a suspension component. Right? If it does not spin, it is not rotational mass... and therefore is no different to the engine or brakes than regular sprung weight... How is it that you should multiply non-rotational unsprung weight by ANY number, when the only thing it affects, as long as it is not rotating, is suspension behavior and ride quality?

You are saying "it is a widely held belief that 1lb of unsprung weight =5,6,7,8,10 lbs of sprung weight", but shouldn't that say "rotational mass"? A caliper that is 3 pounds lighter isn't going to affect your acceleration or braking any more than saving 3 pounds by driving around a passenger with smaller boobs. Right?!

I am saying the RB argument is wrong because he is piling in both rotating mass (the rotor) and non-rotating mass (the caliper) under the same category and then multiplying that by 5. This is incorrect.

I missed the "Flaws in the RACING BRAKE reply".

Unsprung weight affects handling to a greater extent than straight line braking and acceleration, but yes I agree rotational weight affects acceleration more than unsprung weight alone.

 

[NSXDreamer2]

I have to say if OP is so inclined to have brakes upgrade without going the bling BBK part, I'd suggest the stoptech 2 piece aerorotors. Ken Sax swored by them! it really works.

I used to bleed brake fluid after every track day, they are well burnt to brown. right after i have the aerorotors, I got lazy to minimize bleeding brake fluid every year. Heck I didn't do anything to it from last year, because those motul600 stayed pee yellow the whole time. Despite my 13 seconds lap time improvement over the last few years. (comparing to my brown motul track days)

I had them for a few years and they work great. (heck, I think I bought set of 2 from Hrant?)

 

[WingZ]

We've run the RB 2pc rotor and calipers on the old silver "Factor-X/Seamless" Modified-class NSX. I've also run RB 2pc rotors a few years ago on a Grand-Am Koni Challenge car. Despite losing few lbs, IMO (especially for your application) stick with the stock rotors, we didn't notice huge gains in performance in a very regulated series where 5hp makes a huge difference in competitiveness. Since tenths of the second probably doesn't separate winning from losing for you (and even if it does like it did for our Koni car), we didn't see huge gains. Despite this, we had a catastrophic failure of RB's 2pc rotor, cracked many 2pc rotors from regular use on the FX car, and had noticeable caliper flex under the demands of the FX500 Time Attack car. I was not pleased how RB handled any of these concerns or problems and I do not see any of their products in any form of professional or semi-pro motorsports to further develop and test their products. They had a great opportunity with us when we were fighting for the championship, but the failure almost caused us a DNF (let alone crash) and they were not interested in working with us or learning from what happened here to make better street products. They seemed more interested in just selling street products rather than developing products in this arena like most reputable companies do (Performance Friction, Brembo, AP, Alcon, StopTech, Rotora, Spoon, Project Mu, Cobalt Friction, Pagid, etc...)

Hey Thanks for saving me the bread Billy as I was seriously considering those 2 pc. Since you think the stocks are sufficient would just the NA2 NSX-R slotted discs be good? Like Dave I just run the stock wheels.

I believe the spoon caliper with the stock rotors also nets a lighter unsprung weight over stock, and if you really want to go to a 2pc BBK for a similar price, Rotora actively works with racing teams to develop and test products and finishing the 25 Hours of Thunderhill is an accomplishment, let alone winning it.

Do you know what Spoons work with the OE rotors and where to get them? I haven't had any luck with Spoon on this info.

Tires:
The 615's aren't my favorite, but they are fun, cheap, last a while, and work great at cooler temps. If the track temps are below 75*F, the 615 makes tire noise, competitive amount of grip, and are predictable. Hot ambient and track temps changes the characteristic of the 615 to make no noise, are hard to predict, get 'greasy' within a lap or two, and are not that great to learn on. If you live out here in Southern California where its always 80-100*F, the 615's are often a poor choice. In winter over here, they are awesome, competitive (set a S2000 track record on a local track in winter), and would be my choice for the price.

For the June 2009 issue of Grassroot motorsports, tires were tested in 15 inch sizes on a honda civic on 205/50-15, except for RE01R (195/50-15) and Starspec (195/55-15)

6th - Falken RT 615 Mean time: 35.302 Sec Quick time 35.125 Sec.
5th - Dunlop Direzza Sport Z1 Star Spec Mean time: 35.209 sec. Quick time 35.061
4th -Toyo Proxes R1R Mean time: 34.522 sec Quick Time 34.452 sec
3rd- Bridgestone RE-01R Mean time: 34.478 sec Quick Time 34.430 sec.
2nd- Bridgestone Potenza RE-11 Mean time: 34.266 Quick time 34.238 sec.
1st - Kumho ECSTA XS Mean time :34.170 Quick Time 34.030 sec.

All tires were shaved to 3/32nd and test performed on an Autocross set up.

*** This was done on an Autocross. Autocross tire demands are different from road course. Autocross tires start at ambient temps, have lower speeds, lower loading forces acting on the tire, and last ~1 minute or less. Road course use involves higher speeds, higher loads, longer sustained loads, longer runs (1.5-3.5 minute laps) - for multiple laps in a 10-30 minute session, etc... Personally its neat to see the 'ballparks' of autocross tests, but take it with a grain of salt. 2 tenths during this test could be far greater + or - depending on how the tire acts from said road course demands.

Nitto's NT05 is a great tire/price, but Bridgestone's new RE11 and Yokohama's AD08 are a step ahead. While many other manufacturers either have a great tire or equal to (if not barely eclipsing) the current best tires (including AD07), the AD08 is coming out and should set the bar once again for someone else to try to beat it. Tire wars are fun.

The smallest front on the RE-11 is a 235 would this work on the OEM front or too much rubbing?

We estimate the OE caliper to be about 8 or 9 pounds. Our RB4045 calipers weigh about 5 pounds each. best case 4lb gain

The OE bracket weighs @3 lbs while our aluminum adaptor is about 0.8 lbs. Best case 2lb gain

If you purchase the kit with two piece rotor it can save you additional 3-4 lbs per rotor Best case 4lb gain

= best case total 10lb gain per corner
which can translate into 4-5 times of static weight saving so overall you can save 35-40 lbs per axle. assuming a ~ 1lb unsprung = 4lbs sprung weight, i've seen figures up to =6lbs. Regardless its a figure.

10lbs per corner is pretty big, 40lbs overall shedding from the car (replacing front and rear calipers). Keep in mind what wheels/tires you have. Tires can vary in weight from manufacturer to manufacturer let alone different sizes. Same with wheels, all of these can see huge weight gains especially if you run 17, 18, let alone 19" wheels that aren't superlight.

Put everything into perspective to what you are doing to your car, if you have big 'bling' wheels, is saving a few lbs from the brakes to make up for your heavy wheels worth it? Are you going to drive your car to the point to notice a difference anyway? Is running on unproven/tested products worth it to you? -all questions you should consider when coming to a decision.

I was thinking of getting a set of 18x8.5 BBS re-mg that weigh 15.4lbs a piece is this a good move or better staying with stock.

Nice post again Billy. I am running stock 17" forged alu wheels. Not interested in bling, only weight savings.

Friggen A:biggrin:

I have to say if OP is so inclined to have brakes upgrade without going the bling BBK part, I'd suggest the stoptech 2 piece aerorotors. Ken Sax swored by them! it really works.

I used to bleed brake fluid after every track day, they are well burnt to brown. right after i have the aerorotors, I got lazy to minimize bleeding brake fluid every year. Heck I didn't do anything to it from last year, because those motul600 stayed pee yellow the whole time. Despite my 13 seconds lap time improvement over the last few years. (comparing to my brown motul track days)

I had them for a few years and they work great. (heck, I think I bought set of 2 from Hrant?)

Where to find these and do they make them to work with the 97+ calipers? I only see them for 91-96

 

[Liquid]

Great thread... learning a lot and thanks to all contributors.

 

[stuntman]

Hey Thanks for saving me the bread Billy as I was seriously considering those 2 pc. Since you think the stocks are sufficient would just the NA2 NSX-R slotted discs be good? Like Dave I just run the stock wheels.

Do you know what Spoons work with the OE rotors and where to get them? I haven't had any luck with Spoon on this info.

The smallest front on the RE-11 is a 235 would this work on the OEM front or too much rubbing?

I was thinking of getting a set of 18x8.5 BBS re-mg that weigh 15.4lbs a piece is this a good move or better staying with stock.

Where to find these and do they make them to work with the 97+ calipers? I only see them for 91-96

NSX-R slotted rotors would be good, but I'm sure John would agree that the stock 'blank' rotors still would suffice. StopTech makes reputable products so that might be a possibility, but id say the NA2 rotors should be fine. Again, if you're driving at a certain level, you probably need track pads. If you dont want to swap out pads at the track, a BBK might be the answer for this scenario.

OEM front is 7" wide right? That's too narrow for a 235. People who run 235s have a 8" wide wheel. I have a 235 on a 7.5" front of my M3 and will be trying a 235 on the 7.5" front of my NSX shortly so I'll see if I would recommend that wheel width/tire width combo like I recommend for the M3.

Billy

 

[TURBO2GO]

The smallest front on the RE-11 is a 235 would this work on the OEM front or too much rubbing?

WingZ have you read this?

http://www.nsxprime.com/forums/showthread.php?t=121722

 

[nsxhk]

Despite this, we had a catastrophic failure of RB's 2pc rotor, cracked many 2pc rotors from regular use on the FX car, and had noticeable caliper flex under the demands of the FX500 Time Attack car. I was not pleased how RB handled any of these concerns or problems and I do not see any of their products in any form of professional or semi-pro motorsports to further develop and test their products. They had a great opportunity with us when we were fighting for the championship, but the failure almost caused us a DNF (let alone crash) and they were not interested in working with us or learning from what happened here to make better street products. They seemed more interested in just selling street products rather than developing products in this arena like most reputable companies do (Performance Friction, Brembo, AP, Alcon, StopTech, Rotora, Spoon, Project Mu, Cobalt Friction, Pagid, etc...)

Yikes.... wish you could have told us earlier :frown:

You think 500+ hp on the FX car has anything to do with the failure?

You think a custom hat might fix the problem?

 

[ediddynsx]

Yikes.... wish you could have told us earlier :frown:

Wow didn't know that.....thanks for sharing the info Billy.....Well I guess when these rotors take a dive from me then I will look into other ones. So far for the street I have had no problem......I guess it'll be Brembos or Stoptechs for me later.

 

[Ponyboy]

I have to say if OP is so inclined to have brakes upgrade without going the bling BBK part, I'd suggest the stoptech 2 piece aerorotors. Ken Sax swored by them! it really works.

As another piece of reference data, I warped/glazed/uneven pad deposited a set of 2p Stoptech Aerorotors at Mid-Ohio a few years ago. Ran, IIRC, 44's, 45's, and a few 48's, on the longer version of the track. Decided that was enough of that and went to the front Stoptech BBK for the front.

Hmm..

Isn't Turbo2Go's car Supercharged?

If so his car will probably carry a lot more speed in the straight than a stock NSX, doubt that the stock NSX brakes would be able to handle the abuse, unless he has some serious ducting going on. Running on non R-compounds tires aggreviates the problem as well.

Just my 2cents.

Hey, Ken is back! Glad to see you posting again! :biggrin:

The smallest front on the RE-11 is a 235 would this work on the OEM front or too much rubbing?

I think the general consensus is that 235s will rub either outright or at full lock. Member ryneen runs 235s that don't rub but he's also running 3.5 neg camber. I run 235s as well but rub a bit even with a minor fender roll.

Great brake discussion, BTW.

 

[stuntman]

Sorry for the poorly structured sentence. The failure happened on a 240hp 2800lb Acura TSX Grand Am car, almost ruining our chances at the championship. That failure was at Miller Motorsports Park using Hawk DTC60/70 pads and sheared the tabs off of the rotor itself not the hat. I have not had any communication with RB since they expressed no interest in finding out what happened to fix the problem and make a better product. This was a similar failure seen on a handful of AutoX cars. I do not know if they redesigned the rotors or not.

The 500whp FX NSX had RB's NSX application - rotor and caliper. For the majority of people who drive their car on the street or track (even with this power levels), I don't believe the same stresses will be achieved and i'm sure it would be fine without any problems. We frequently cracked rotors and the caliper flex under these stresses/heat resulted in an inconsistant pedal feel which made brake modulation on a non-abs car more difficult. Again, for most people, I wouldn't worry but think there are better products for the same price.

I think the general consensus is that 235s will rub either outright or at full lock. Member ryneen runs 235s that don't rub but he's also running 3.5 neg camber. I run 235s as well but rub a bit even with a minor fender roll.

Great brake discussion, BTW.

I think Ryneen is running -3.2 and now -3.

 

[Ponyboy]

The failure happened on a 240hp 2800lb Acura TSX Grand Am car, almost ruining our chances at the championship.

After personally seeing a car flip b/c of a brake rotor failure, thank God potentially ruining your championship was the only effect that happened.

 

[docjohn]

NSX-R slotted rotors would be good, but I'm sure John would agree that the stock 'blank' rotors still would suffice. StopTech makes reputable products so that might be a possibility, but id say the NA2 rotors should be fine. Again, if you're driving at a certain level, you probably need track pads. If you dont want to swap out pads at the track, a BBK might be the answer for this scenario.

OEM front is 7" wide right? That's too narrow for a 235. People who run 235s have a 8" wide wheel. I have a 235 on a 7.5" front of my M3 and will be trying a 235 on the 7.5" front of my NSX shortly so I'll see if I would recommend that wheel width/tire width combo like I recommend for the M3.

Billy

I've been running 235 ra-1 on the ssr-c in 7.5 inch for ever.No problems.

 

[Hrant]

Re RB 2pc rotors.

I had the first slotted RB 2pc template made in OEM size and ran them for some 15 track days using Carbotech Panther Plus pads with absolutely no issues though I messed the bedding on the second set of pads. I replaced them after the slotted wear marks were reaching their limit with another set of fronts and used XP8 pads; ran on this combo with a CTSC at the end for some 15 track days; again with no issues. Both times I was running on RA1s; with the second set I was on 235.

By then, both the front and rear needed replacement. With a CTSC, I now wanted a bit more safety margin. So I opted Stopteck BBK as Dali's pricing was unbeatable.

I am NOT hard on brakes, nor the fastest. But I am told I am smooth; and no one throws up after taking a joy ride with me ..... :biggrin::tongue:

 

[Honcho]

Brake improvement is a progression. I think you should try doing it in this order and see where you end up:

1. Pads/Fluid/Lines
2. Cooling (ducts)
3. Rotors (2-pc floating)
4. Full BBK

I've done a lot of searching on this over the past few months while considering my own eventual upgrade needs and many folks here on Prime have stopped at #2 and been fine on the track. You might find that it gives you the results you want and saves some $ that can be put toward something else, like a Skip Barber class, for example.

 

[White92]

Sorry for the poorly structured sentence. The failure happened on a 240hp 2800lb Acura TSX Grand Am car, almost ruining our chances at the championship. That failure was at Miller Motorsports Park using Hawk DTC60/70 pads and sheared the tabs off of the rotor itself not the hat. I have not had any communication with RB since they expressed no interest in finding out what happened to fix the problem and make a better product. This was a similar failure seen on a handful of AutoX cars. I do not know if they redesigned the rotors or not.

The 500whp FX NSX had RB's NSX application - rotor and caliper. For the majority of people who drive their car on the street or track (even with this power levels), I don't believe the same stresses will be achieved and i'm sure it would be fine without any problems. We frequently cracked rotors and the caliper flex under these stresses/heat resulted in an inconsistant pedal feel which made brake modulation on a non-abs car more difficult. Again, for most people, I wouldn't worry but think there are better products for the same price.

I think Ryneen is running -3.2 and now -3.

When were you out here at Miller Motorsports Park and why wasn't I aware of this? :smile:

 

[Yokohama_91]

Hi

I have been steadily upgrading the brakes on my NSX 1991 Coupe since I was first introduced to a track day at Fuji Speedway three years ago and I got the bug! As my driving skills developed and around 300 laps later I started to really understand the car more and look for further performance to bring it more inline with today's performance standards. But i have stopped short of wings, splitters, ducts etc prefering to preserve the original lines of the NA1 with those wonderful pop-up lights.

Brakes have been a constant development over the three years...

1) Brake lines, Master Cylinder and DOT 4 fluid
2) Track day pads, Feel's Evos - excellent no fade.
3) NA2 OEM Callipers and Rotors upgrade - great step up
4) New Pads - KSP Road/Track
5) New NA2 ABS Actuator - very fast ABS action, great for driving Suzuka in the wet! - this is a great modification for NA1s
6) Dixel front rotors - NA2 OEM rotors wore out
7) New pads, Ferodo DS2500, very good feel best pad yet
8) New Pads, Ferodo DS3000, awesome stopping power allowing very late breaking.

ASM Yokohama diagnosed bent brake calliper brackets after noise and judder when reversing after a track session. A fellow NSX primer, Kye who has a Supercharged 'T' recommended the RB BBK, he has the kit on the rear of his car.

9) New pads, more Ferodo DS2500s
10) Racing Brake BBK for OEM NA2 NSX callipers with 324mm Front and 330mm rear, straight slot 2 peice rotors.

I fitted the kit myself but I did need rather more grinding of the front callipers than I imagined, including triming the pad retention clips and changing the calliper pins, which I suspected contributed to the interferance of calliper and rotor, at this time I did contact RB and they were very quick to offer advice and support. I am guessing though that a lot of potential customers may be put off by the calliper grinding which might be unessesary with a 322mm front rotor or a slightly longer calliper bracket?

The result has been a big step change improvement, I could not be happier, I now have the stopping power of the Brembo F360 kit, but with better balance, especially improved 'turn in' while trail-braking. My friend has the brembo set up on his Type S and has no advantage. At the circuit I am using Bridgestone RE55S SR2 medium compound tyres and running on KSP-Eng racing suspension.

Since fitting the RB BBK, I have taken 4 seconds off my best lap time at Fuji GP course, currently 2m 02.7s, the big brake test on this circuit is turn one after the 1.5 km straight where previously I was maxing at 242kph and breaking at the 150m marker, now i am maxing out at 245kph and breaking at 100m.

On a final note i like this kit because I have achieved an extremely high level of braking performance with the OEM 'NSX' branded calliper, so the car still looks like a clean original NA1.

Hope this helps

Simon

 

[MvM]

Hi

I fitted the kit myself but I did need rather more grinding of the front callipers than I imagined, including triming the pad retention clips and changing the calliper pins, which I suspected contributed to the interferance of calliper and rotor, at this time I did contact RB and they were very quick to offer advice and support.
The result has been a big step change improvement, I could not be happier, I now have the stopping power of the Brembo F360 kit, but with better balance, especially improved 'turn in' while trail-braking. My friend has the brembo set up on his Type S and has no advantage. At the circuit I am using Bridgestone RE55S SR2 medium compound tyres and running on KSP-Eng racing suspension.

Thanks very much for the update and your comments.

Like you, I had to do a lot of grinding on the OEM calipers to make sure the RB 324mm rotors would not touch the calipers either cold or when hot.
But as you, I have been very happy with the upgrade in performance.

Have ONE question though. I choose the 1997+ 303mm rotors in the rear in combination with the RB 324mm rotors in the front. You did the 330mm rotors in the rear. Do you feel the bigger rotors in the rear are really necessary?

 

[stuntman]

When were you out here at Miller Motorsports Park and why wasn't I aware of this? :smile:

Every year, all the time. Check out www.grand-am.com and look under "Koni Challenge" for the schedule/dates.

:smile:

 

[docjohn]

I'm another fan of the ferodo 2500 for my brembo fronts.

 

[TURBO2GO]

Since we have some well informed racers posting on this thread, I need an honest opinion... do these wind deflectors for brakes work? How much can you possibly cool a thick steel rotor by blowing a little extra air on it? Seems like wishful thinking to me...