Hugh said:
islander said:
It’s just another Hugh comment, you have to learn to not take him too seriously. He means well.
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Next Acura NSX Has Ferrari F430 in Its Sights
- Thread starter Timpo
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It’s just another Hugh comment, you have to learn to not take him too seriously. He means well.
I do not see why...again based on history.nsxtacey said:They need to legitimize spending more for the 430 replacement. The entry level car code named dino w/ a v8 cannot be a car that cost less and performs on par with a 430 so a v10 for the replacement is logical. But just have to wait and see what happens just like the nsx replacement
Just like the grandsport before it (former entry level Ferrari before they ditched Masi), the dino simply can have a detuned V8. It costs quite a bit less, and Ferrari doesn't exactly have the same RD and production funds of a 'normal' auto company. They used to say GM would have a team of designers with a multi-million dollar budget design a waterpump. Ferrari would give a guy a pencil and paper and expect a prototype for a fraction of the cost. (Considering that environment, its not surprising the level of reliability seen)
Thats what they used to say after the end of "the war to end all wars" aka World War I. :biggrin:nsxtacey said:
"NSX REPLACEMENT TO BE ASTON RIVAL........Honda is abandoning its supercar sector it once shook up with the NSX and instead will build a front engined all wheel drive high performance GT in the mould of the Aston Martin V8 Vantage. They have been testing two prototypes, the other a mid-engined configuration, but at a recent dealer conference, senior Honda personnel apparently let slip that the front-engined car had been given the go-ahead. Its likely to be powered by a 450hp V-10 driving all four wheels-but with a significant rear-bias-through a six speed automatically operated manual.
The four wheel drive will be a development of the Super Handling AWD system."
May issue Evo magazine.
The four wheel drive will be a development of the Super Handling AWD system."
May issue Evo magazine.
VintageracerNYC said:
and the F430 is way better than any aston. looks like a lot of you underestimate ferrari. the F430 isn't another 360. chances are.... with a name like ferrari, they won't let a company (especially honda) blindsight them in their own arena (ie, exotic sports cars).
i bet the new nsx or whatever it will be called will be an awesome car, but performance wise..... you have to spend a lot and charge a lot to knock on ferrari's door..... and honda is probably one of the last companies that will do that. they will put out another kickass car, pretty fast, pretty damn good handling..... but not ferrari calibur....... BUT it will also be reliable.... but then again..... they aren't putting out V8's that red at 8500 rpm.:smile:
They did 15 years ago... :wink:Synthesis said:
Synthesis said:
Yes well 15 years ago Ferrari were pretty much no-where in the championship and Honda were leading! But the NSX still didn't have more power than the Ferrari! So you may be correct...
However, before you dismiss Honda like everyone else does... Just remember that Honda makes more engines than ANY other manufacturer in the world every year! So they do know a thing or 2 about making engines... :wink:
AU_NSX said:
you're right.... honda was def on top of the ball back then. it's a shame that they didn't stay on top of the nsx through the years, because there's no doubt that honda could keep up if they really wanted to. but you have to admit, ferrari is doing a damn good job now.... way ahead of anybody else (especially with the F430).... and honda tends to be a bit more conservative in most regards (ie, small wheels on all their cars
) i just wish honda would go all out.... at least with their supercar. show what they can really do.... because a lot of people would be surprised.
Forget Ferrari.... Honda should be aiming for Lamborghini, and using two of these in their next car:
<IMG SRC="http://www.nsxprime.com/forums/image.php?u=10915&dateline=1113439704">
<IMG SRC="http://www.nsxprime.com/forums/image.php?u=10915&dateline=1113439704">
Hey Dear Honda,
Maybe you should aim for something higher like the Zonda F1. http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/coupe/112_0212_pagani_zonda_c12s/index.html What the next NSX, could be and should be, without the price tag.:smile:
Maybe you should aim for something higher like the Zonda F1. http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/coupe/112_0212_pagani_zonda_c12s/index.html What the next NSX, could be and should be, without the price tag.:smile:
MAJOR STONER said:nothing official...
THAT IS BAD ASS !!!!!!!!!!
in a good way
Honda should forget about it.....
Having sat on their arse for well over a decade and watching passively as every imaginable competitor improved and perfected, Honda are already too late and cannot recover from their disastrous delay. By the time they finally engineer a car that is up to par with the current Ferraris and Porsches, etc. these cars would have moved ahead another few years.
The only way Honda can make a winner is by doing one of two things:
1) make a competitive car for significant discount to the current NSX (not going to happen)
or
2) make a car with a distinct advantage in terms of technology (Hybrid etc.)
Otherwise, a great 500hp car, introduced in 2008 or 2009 for $100K plus will be dead upon arrival because as it is 500 hp is already the norm in 2006.
I think too little, too late Honda .....now pay the price for your EXTREME caution in improving and upgrading a car that was ahead of every competitor at its intro and should and easily could have remained so with Honda's engineering prowess.
I am looking now to the Lexus or the Nissan GT-R as the possible options.
Having sat on their arse for well over a decade and watching passively as every imaginable competitor improved and perfected, Honda are already too late and cannot recover from their disastrous delay. By the time they finally engineer a car that is up to par with the current Ferraris and Porsches, etc. these cars would have moved ahead another few years.
The only way Honda can make a winner is by doing one of two things:
1) make a competitive car for significant discount to the current NSX (not going to happen)
or
2) make a car with a distinct advantage in terms of technology (Hybrid etc.)
Otherwise, a great 500hp car, introduced in 2008 or 2009 for $100K plus will be dead upon arrival because as it is 500 hp is already the norm in 2006.
I think too little, too late Honda .....now pay the price for your EXTREME caution in improving and upgrading a car that was ahead of every competitor at its intro and should and easily could have remained so with Honda's engineering prowess.
I am looking now to the Lexus or the Nissan GT-R as the possible options.
Re: Honda should forget about it.....
"Otherwise, a great 500hp car, introduced in 2008 or 2009 for $100K plus will be dead upon arrival because as it is 500 hp is already the norm in 2006."
It's not clear to me why horsepower specs matter at all, let alone as much as everyone seems to think. What matters is actual, measured performance - handling, cornering, acceleration, braking, lap times, etc. If Honda can make an exotic sports car with 0 - 60 times under 4 seconds, 1.0+ G in handling, in a mid-engine configuration, etc., then what does it matter if a bunch of squirrels are under the hood?
For acceleration, torque, not horsepower, is what propels a car forward.
For handling and braking, light weight plus a mid-engine configuration produces the best results.
If the successor to the NSX were to weigh, say, 2800 lbs. fully configured, my guess is that even 400 HP and 350 lb-ft of torque would be sufficient to make the performance of this car the equal of any production sports car in the world at that time.
I care a lot less about absolute values of horsepower and torque than I do about real-world performance, where all factors affect the final performance of a car (including esoteric factors such as drivetrain loss).
Or am I missing something here?
"Otherwise, a great 500hp car, introduced in 2008 or 2009 for $100K plus will be dead upon arrival because as it is 500 hp is already the norm in 2006."
It's not clear to me why horsepower specs matter at all, let alone as much as everyone seems to think. What matters is actual, measured performance - handling, cornering, acceleration, braking, lap times, etc. If Honda can make an exotic sports car with 0 - 60 times under 4 seconds, 1.0+ G in handling, in a mid-engine configuration, etc., then what does it matter if a bunch of squirrels are under the hood?
For acceleration, torque, not horsepower, is what propels a car forward.
For handling and braking, light weight plus a mid-engine configuration produces the best results.
If the successor to the NSX were to weigh, say, 2800 lbs. fully configured, my guess is that even 400 HP and 350 lb-ft of torque would be sufficient to make the performance of this car the equal of any production sports car in the world at that time.
I care a lot less about absolute values of horsepower and torque than I do about real-world performance, where all factors affect the final performance of a car (including esoteric factors such as drivetrain loss).
Or am I missing something here?
PLZ said:
Yes, you are. To attain 350 lbs/ft of torque figure on the engine having a displacement of 4.5 liters, give or take 100 CCs. Let's assume it's a 4.4 unblown V10. By the design nature of their sportscar engines you can bet that this car would better your horsepower mark by 100 for sure.
So, 2800 pounds/ 500 hp and a final transaction price in the second model year somewhere in the high 80s {wishful thinking, right?} would be pretty darn attractive to a lot of people, including myself.
That's a really optimistic view however. Given that Honda has basically done nothing to this car since its inception I'd tend to believe the posts that state that this company has indeed missed the boat and that we'll never see a halo car equaling what the first one was.
since when does horsepower not matter in a sports car? i don't care how well it handles, if it doens't have a sack, then it's still not well rounded enough. that's what ferrari does right. they make a car with some balls, AND it handles better than an NSX. given it's quite a bit more expensive.... it's still obvious that an honest effort hasn't been given by honda since 1991.
give us something now like what the nsx was in 1991..... honda is going to have to get over the obstacle of the corvette before they can even focus on anything else.... (kinda sad, really) i don't really think ferrari is even concerned.
give us something now like what the nsx was in 1991..... honda is going to have to get over the obstacle of the corvette before they can even focus on anything else.... (kinda sad, really) i don't really think ferrari is even concerned.
Jesus... all this HP talk, Honda didn't do anything to the car, the new one will be too expensive, and will be dead on arrival.
Many manufactures created cars with 500 hps, but few have extract the best performance out of these engines simply because the chassis which housed these engines were either too heavy, or too loose. Few have succeeded, cars such as Ford GT, Current Ferraris/Lambo, and porsche, but the question of reliability will always plague them.
Take F1 for example, a 2.4 liter NA V8 (with very little torque) will kill any Indy (3.5 Liter V8) or Champ cars (2.65 Turbo). Same theory can be apply to road cars. That is why the little Lotus rock the track, out performed cars that has twice or more hps.
NSX did not receive much HP increase because of the JDM market 280ps rule, if you didn't know about that, research it. No manufacture have advertised their stock vehicle PS figure beyond 280 until 05 Honda Legend (300ps) - NO, not even Skyline GTR. NSX arrived in 1990 with 30hp short of 348, even with 20 hp bumps in 97, the car was way short of the 355 in HP, but it was not slower.
The word "Masterpiece" and the phrase "way ahead of its time" is the only way to describe a car that is so perfect, required the competitors 10 years to catch up. When the inflation increased the price by $30 k after 8 years (90 to 97) even when the world wide annual sales dropped below 500, the car still received constant upgrades. Ferrari 348 had a price tag of 100k, by the last F355 rolled off the assembly line, it carried the price tag of 170k.
The final version, 02 Spec Type R is greatest testimonial to how perfect the chassis is on the NSX. Minor tweaks allowed people toss it around tracks faster than 360 and Porsche GT3. You can’t possible tell me the US cars felt slow. By no means it’s rapid like a Ford GT or F430, but it is not slow, and high-speed stability is great even when pushed to the limit.
Honda has to fight a international market when Japanese cars just don’t get enough respect from the badge snobs. Even if the next NSX can out performed any of its competitors, it will never sale enough volume to turn instant profit. The R&D technology will filter down to lower line cars, which will generate greater return, it’s the over all picture Honda is after. Image or not, the NSX never generated much buzz other than its 1990 introduction. I always felt it was their mistake for not importing the Type R to US. You can’t really generate any major impact to a car that is 12 years old (2002) by not bring the best model.
As for the HP rating, check out my earlier post: http://www.nsxprime.com/forums/showthread.php?t=59527
I believe the article is on the ball game, and Honda is doing something special. Uehera, the chief designer is a very smart man, his team will come up with another masterpiece that will shock the world. You are talking about a car that was so incredible back in 1990 that Gordon Murray brought one in just to help him design the McLaren F1. I think Honda will do 500 plus ps, on a car that is going to be sub 3000 lbs. As (arguably) the best engine manufacture in the world, they will not disappoint you. Again, I have mentioned this before, Honda is will not built a car to satisfy what the press want, but to match their philosophy. It is not a surprise how they like to do the things their way, and let others follow, even is the ending result didn’t meet expectation.
Just wait and see, the car will be a highly desirable piece of engineering, it will reset the bench mark for exotic super cars. Ford achieved fantastic result with the GT, Honda will definitely top that.
Many manufactures created cars with 500 hps, but few have extract the best performance out of these engines simply because the chassis which housed these engines were either too heavy, or too loose. Few have succeeded, cars such as Ford GT, Current Ferraris/Lambo, and porsche, but the question of reliability will always plague them.
Take F1 for example, a 2.4 liter NA V8 (with very little torque) will kill any Indy (3.5 Liter V8) or Champ cars (2.65 Turbo). Same theory can be apply to road cars. That is why the little Lotus rock the track, out performed cars that has twice or more hps.
NSX did not receive much HP increase because of the JDM market 280ps rule, if you didn't know about that, research it. No manufacture have advertised their stock vehicle PS figure beyond 280 until 05 Honda Legend (300ps) - NO, not even Skyline GTR. NSX arrived in 1990 with 30hp short of 348, even with 20 hp bumps in 97, the car was way short of the 355 in HP, but it was not slower.
The word "Masterpiece" and the phrase "way ahead of its time" is the only way to describe a car that is so perfect, required the competitors 10 years to catch up. When the inflation increased the price by $30 k after 8 years (90 to 97) even when the world wide annual sales dropped below 500, the car still received constant upgrades. Ferrari 348 had a price tag of 100k, by the last F355 rolled off the assembly line, it carried the price tag of 170k.
The final version, 02 Spec Type R is greatest testimonial to how perfect the chassis is on the NSX. Minor tweaks allowed people toss it around tracks faster than 360 and Porsche GT3. You can’t possible tell me the US cars felt slow. By no means it’s rapid like a Ford GT or F430, but it is not slow, and high-speed stability is great even when pushed to the limit.
Honda has to fight a international market when Japanese cars just don’t get enough respect from the badge snobs. Even if the next NSX can out performed any of its competitors, it will never sale enough volume to turn instant profit. The R&D technology will filter down to lower line cars, which will generate greater return, it’s the over all picture Honda is after. Image or not, the NSX never generated much buzz other than its 1990 introduction. I always felt it was their mistake for not importing the Type R to US. You can’t really generate any major impact to a car that is 12 years old (2002) by not bring the best model.
As for the HP rating, check out my earlier post: http://www.nsxprime.com/forums/showthread.php?t=59527
I believe the article is on the ball game, and Honda is doing something special. Uehera, the chief designer is a very smart man, his team will come up with another masterpiece that will shock the world. You are talking about a car that was so incredible back in 1990 that Gordon Murray brought one in just to help him design the McLaren F1. I think Honda will do 500 plus ps, on a car that is going to be sub 3000 lbs. As (arguably) the best engine manufacture in the world, they will not disappoint you. Again, I have mentioned this before, Honda is will not built a car to satisfy what the press want, but to match their philosophy. It is not a surprise how they like to do the things their way, and let others follow, even is the ending result didn’t meet expectation.
Just wait and see, the car will be a highly desirable piece of engineering, it will reset the bench mark for exotic super cars. Ford achieved fantastic result with the GT, Honda will definitely top that.
Vancehu said:
Amen Vance
I'm really tired of people talking about how "underpowered or slow" the car is. The car is by no means slow. People who complain about this just sound stupid and don't realize it. I think alot of the guys here who talk about the new car having to have 1 trillion hp want some bragging rights and don't seem to understand the car never had hp bragging rights to begin with. Which is funny because it never needed them to kick other cars butts.
I started looking at F355/360 stats and they really were very close to the NA2 NSX. People don't give the NA2 engine any credit. Most people think of the NA1 when they talk about stats and comparisons and then say "Oh yeah I forgot about the larger engine ,but it was only like 20hp so it couldn't have made any difference" Big difference! Great numbers for when it came out. Time for an update..... yes anything to be ashamed of ....no
HP and bragging rights DO matter.....
Wow!! If the NSX is already perfect, why is Honda bothering to bring in a replacement
People who talk as if HP and bragging rights do not matter should practice as they preach and get themselves a nice cute little Miata and forget about all other cars. The Miata has near perfect balance and handling, the shifter is second to none and the exhaust is inotoxicating. Enough goodness right? Wrong!:wink:
That is why the NSX needs more of what is found in sports car from around the world. If all those HP figures and bragging rights do not matter, then I guess the people at Ferrari and Porsche and Lambo and BMW and Mercedes and Nissan etc. etc. are all just fools and you are the only smart kids who have figured it all out. Get real. Get honest with yourselves.
WingZ said:
Wow!! If the NSX is already perfect, why is Honda bothering to bring in a replacement
People who talk as if HP and bragging rights do not matter should practice as they preach and get themselves a nice cute little Miata and forget about all other cars. The Miata has near perfect balance and handling, the shifter is second to none and the exhaust is inotoxicating. Enough goodness right? Wrong!:wink:
That is why the NSX needs more of what is found in sports car from around the world. If all those HP figures and bragging rights do not matter, then I guess the people at Ferrari and Porsche and Lambo and BMW and Mercedes and Nissan etc. etc. are all just fools and you are the only smart kids who have figured it all out. Get real. Get honest with yourselves.
Re: HP and bragging rights DO matter.....
1. Never said it was perfect.
2. If I or anyone else here wanted a Miata apparently we would have bought one.
3. The NSX when it first came out performed better than other cars that had more horsepower.
4. We are real ....really happy with what we purchased and apparently aren't bothered by poeple who have more powerful cars.
5. Think about what kind of person needs HP bragging rights:biggrin:
6. Anyone here who thought they needed a car with more HP would sell their car and move on.
Sorry guy's I know liftcontrol usually has negative posts about the car and that's fine. I just felt like having a bit of fun going back at him on this one:biggrin:
liftcontrol said:Wow!! If the NSX is already perfect, why is Honda bothering to bring in a replacement
People who talk as if HP and bragging rights do not matter should practice as they preach and get themselves a nice cute little Miata and forget about all other cars. The Miata has near perfect balance and handling, the shifter is second to none and the exhaust is inotoxicating. Enough goodness right? Wrong!:wink:
That is why the NSX needs more of what is found in sports car from around the world. If all those HP figures and bragging rights do not matter, then I guess the people at Ferrari and Porsche and Lambo and BMW and Mercedes and Nissan etc. etc. are all just fools and you are the only smart kids who have figured it all out. Get real. Get honest with yourselves.
1. Never said it was perfect.
2. If I or anyone else here wanted a Miata apparently we would have bought one.
3. The NSX when it first came out performed better than other cars that had more horsepower.
4. We are real ....really happy with what we purchased and apparently aren't bothered by poeple who have more powerful cars.
5. Think about what kind of person needs HP bragging rights:biggrin:
6. Anyone here who thought they needed a car with more HP would sell their car and move on.
Sorry guy's I know liftcontrol usually has negative posts about the car and that's fine. I just felt like having a bit of fun going back at him on this one:biggrin:
Re: HP and bragging rights DO matter.....
I love my NSX.
That does not mean I am blind and devoid of common sense.
WingZ, you ask what kind of person needs HP bragging rights? Still lying to yourself, Huh.:wink: Look at yourself in the mirror and you will have your answer. What do you think you bought your sports cars for?
WingZ said:
I love my NSX.
That does not mean I am blind and devoid of common sense.
WingZ, you ask what kind of person needs HP bragging rights? Still lying to yourself, Huh.:wink: Look at yourself in the mirror and you will have your answer. What do you think you bought your sports cars for?
I would be very disappointed in Honda if they were to sacrifice performance and handling for horsepower.
I will pay for die-cast copper rotors, I will not pay for elephantine cylinders and all their baggage.
If it is horsepower you are searching for in your mirror, maybe you should look at getting yourself a new Peterbilt.
I will pay for die-cast copper rotors, I will not pay for elephantine cylinders and all their baggage.
If it is horsepower you are searching for in your mirror, maybe you should look at getting yourself a new Peterbilt.
Last edited:
mindretch said:
High HP doesn't require elephantine cylinders. The new GT3 cranks out 415 HP from 3.6 liters. The current gen M3 gets 333 hp from 3.2 liters. The bore of the F430's engine is 92 mm versus the NA2's 93 mm bore.
The Chevy LS7 weighs 444 lbs fully dressed - I bought an NSX engine last year and the shipping weight was 455 lbs - so the two are virtually the same.
The NSX is underpowered due to Honda sitting on its ass. Any other explanation is an excuse.
I believe we all agree that Honda, in the past, really pulled it altogether when they crafted the NSX. That creation was and still is based on overall balance. The balancing act to match HP, torque, chassis design, overall weight, dependability, comfort, price and so on is what world class engineering is about.
In the recent past and even today this "old" design" is still competitive; it is no longer at the cutting edge of performance but not far removed from it. A number of us have modified our own cars to stay close to that edge with very good results. The NSX over the past decade an half has out preformed many cars possessing more HP because of its superb balance. That very balance is what attracted me to the car in the first place.
Whatever Honda is planning, lets hope they once again craft a car that embodies the style, power, dependability and balance as the original did at its inception and they let go of any limited thinking during this quest. If so they will once again show the automotive world the road to future super car development. If they miss the target the NSX will stand alone as tribute to a breakthrough in design and execution that may only occur once in this company's life.
I feel privileged to own 2 of these cars and hope their successors carries forth the tradition started by the NSX. This next generation car should not be built to compete with an already existing F430 but built to upstage whatever Ferrari brings to the table in 2008 or beyond.
My hopes and best wishes to the Honda Design Team.
Bob
In the recent past and even today this "old" design" is still competitive; it is no longer at the cutting edge of performance but not far removed from it. A number of us have modified our own cars to stay close to that edge with very good results. The NSX over the past decade an half has out preformed many cars possessing more HP because of its superb balance. That very balance is what attracted me to the car in the first place.
Whatever Honda is planning, lets hope they once again craft a car that embodies the style, power, dependability and balance as the original did at its inception and they let go of any limited thinking during this quest. If so they will once again show the automotive world the road to future super car development. If they miss the target the NSX will stand alone as tribute to a breakthrough in design and execution that may only occur once in this company's life.
I feel privileged to own 2 of these cars and hope their successors carries forth the tradition started by the NSX. This next generation car should not be built to compete with an already existing F430 but built to upstage whatever Ferrari brings to the table in 2008 or beyond.
My hopes and best wishes to the Honda Design Team.
Bob
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