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NSX Crash at Track Event...
- Thread starter UFO
- Start date
That guy needed proper instruction.
He was driving way above his skill level and therefore overcooked the corner
He apexed WAY too early and then didn't keep his foot in and straighten out to save it - Too many guys with great cars think they're great drivers - those are the guys who tend to crash on track days.:frown:
What's even worse is that it looked like, to me, that me made it (initially). Sure, it oversteered a bit (fish tail), but he "saved it". The rear end didn't go all the way around. However, he didn't save it the normal way.
Instead, it looks like this guy did a drifting move. He stayed heavy in the throttle while counter-steering big time. When the rear end caught grip, the car then did a snap-oversteer to the right and the driver was unable to steer quick enough back the other way to save the 2nd oversteer. You can see that he did try to steer back the other way but too little, too late. The 2nd spin is faster in some cases and is much harder to save. Avoid the snap back. Here is how.
When saving an oversteer, steer back into the spin. Usually, just a little will do it. Be patient and smooth. You may need to steer more, even a lot, shuffling hands to accomplish whatever is necessary to save it. Depending on the spin, you can also reduce throttle but steering is the main way to save the spin.
If you can't save it by steering and reducing throttle, turn all the way into the spin and lock up the brakes hard. (Push clutch in also.) Spins often occur before or near the apex and you'll likely have a lot of track towards the outside to use to slow down before hitting anything. This predictable course will help other cars, if any, avoid you.
After steering into the spin to save it, you need to resume turn in the original direction. You only steer into the spin enough to stop the oversteering, but you need to maintain the turning rate. Maintaining the turning rate is critical for two reasons. 1) it prevents snap-oversteer the other way; 2) you still need to make the turn.
If you can concentrate of the feel of the car (the g-forces to the outside), then maintain the high g-force turn while you counter-steer. And, that is the key - driving by feel.
This guy was not steering by feel (from what it looks like) but by a panic move of steering into the turn (too much), then being unable to steer quick enough back the other way to save the snap. Use the force Luke. Drive by feel.
$0.02
Instead, it looks like this guy did a drifting move. He stayed heavy in the throttle while counter-steering big time. When the rear end caught grip, the car then did a snap-oversteer to the right and the driver was unable to steer quick enough back the other way to save the 2nd oversteer. You can see that he did try to steer back the other way but too little, too late. The 2nd spin is faster in some cases and is much harder to save. Avoid the snap back. Here is how.
When saving an oversteer, steer back into the spin. Usually, just a little will do it. Be patient and smooth. You may need to steer more, even a lot, shuffling hands to accomplish whatever is necessary to save it. Depending on the spin, you can also reduce throttle but steering is the main way to save the spin.
If you can't save it by steering and reducing throttle, turn all the way into the spin and lock up the brakes hard. (Push clutch in also.) Spins often occur before or near the apex and you'll likely have a lot of track towards the outside to use to slow down before hitting anything. This predictable course will help other cars, if any, avoid you.
After steering into the spin to save it, you need to resume turn in the original direction. You only steer into the spin enough to stop the oversteering, but you need to maintain the turning rate. Maintaining the turning rate is critical for two reasons. 1) it prevents snap-oversteer the other way; 2) you still need to make the turn.
If you can concentrate of the feel of the car (the g-forces to the outside), then maintain the high g-force turn while you counter-steer. And, that is the key - driving by feel.
This guy was not steering by feel (from what it looks like) but by a panic move of steering into the turn (too much), then being unable to steer quick enough back the other way to save the snap. Use the force Luke. Drive by feel.
$0.02
(I confess I don't really understand your explianation - the interchange of oversteering and the concept of oversteer makes it hard to follow)
I think the car hopped to the other side (tank slapped/spun) because he lifted, he probably saw the edge of the track coming at him fast (this stuff all happens in seconds) and the Newbie move is to lift - from my experience (and I've had a bit) keeping your foot in is hard for newbies but since lifting changes the weight balance towards steering vs. gripping it tends to promote oversteer and therefore spins past the apex more than just allowing the car to understeer off the track - keeping your foot in IMO = safer in most instances.
I think the car hopped to the other side (tank slapped/spun) because he lifted, he probably saw the edge of the track coming at him fast (this stuff all happens in seconds) and the Newbie move is to lift - from my experience (and I've had a bit) keeping your foot in is hard for newbies but since lifting changes the weight balance towards steering vs. gripping it tends to promote oversteer and therefore spins past the apex more than just allowing the car to understeer off the track - keeping your foot in IMO = safer in most instances.
Where was that at? I saw a silver NSX crash at PIR Ferrari club day in 2005.
In an oversteer condition it's VERY important that as soon as the initial oversteer is corralled that fast hands are used to go back the othe way. The point at which the oversteer rotation stops, typically the suspension is loaded to the outside and the wheels are pointed to the outside as well. If there isn't INSTANT unwinding of the steering, the suspension unloads (remember the car stopped rotating) and gets thrown to the other side. Combine that with the fact that the wheels might be pointed to the outside and around it goes in the other direction.
So, remember, turn into the oversteer and as the car stops rotating, QUICK back the other way.
Oh, yeah, don't lift. :biggrin:
The drift doesnt even look like it was that bad to me. Id guess that the whole thing would have been saved with just some gas and patient hands.
I think he got the gas right, but his hands were ahead and then way behind, the car. I agree with quarasr, he didnt adjust his steering inputs appropriately for the changing situation. It is almost like he steered into the drift, but didnt steer out of it.
Hard thing to practice, isnt it?
I think he got the gas right, but his hands were ahead and then way behind, the car. I agree with quarasr, he didnt adjust his steering inputs appropriately for the changing situation. It is almost like he steered into the drift, but didnt steer out of it.
Hard thing to practice, isnt it?
Thats why you rent the DDT track in November - cold tires, cold track you practice getting the car out and bringing it back - if it doesn't work there's no pain - just a spin - but if you try it at a high speed track - lots of spin, lots of pain.
You just can't recreate a tank slapper or really any non-linear loss of control on a skidpad
So I've been reading alot about "snap oversteer". I still don't really "get it". Does anyone have a video possibly???
I'm guessing I had a situation when I first bought my car that I "think" is snap oversteer. I got it sideways, and the car immediately kicked sideways in the opposite direction, then kicked immediately to the opposite side, then kicked over once again. I was left/right sideways, about 5 times but I drove out of it.
I'm guessing I had a situation when I first bought my car that I "think" is snap oversteer. I got it sideways, and the car immediately kicked sideways in the opposite direction, then kicked immediately to the opposite side, then kicked over once again. I was left/right sideways, about 5 times but I drove out of it.
I just watched that video a few times and it sounded like his throttle application stayed constant without lift....I could be wrong, but that is what it sounded like.
All he had to do is stay on the gas and it would have been avoided.
He was in a mid engine type slide, he didn't totally lift, but he didn't stay in it as he should of and that's what caused the snap oversteer.
All he needed to do is apply more power to come out of the slide & be headed down the the straight away in the right direction.
Stupid mistake.
He was in a mid engine type slide, he didn't totally lift, but he didn't stay in it as he should of and that's what caused the snap oversteer.
All he needed to do is apply more power to come out of the slide & be headed down the the straight away in the right direction.
Stupid mistake.
ugh that makes me sick everytime! The whole roll-over is too bad. I track my NSX(PCA Instructor) and you have to have very quick reaction if you plan(or dont plan) on putting the car sideways.
I would almost recommend performing this "semi-drift" maneuver to get a feel for the car at that angle.
I admit that I will do it to a certain level when the tires are cold.
Oh and a sidenote. JapFest, I have heard was the largest gathering of NSX's ever.
I would almost recommend performing this "semi-drift" maneuver to get a feel for the car at that angle.
I admit that I will do it to a certain level when the tires are cold.
Oh and a sidenote. JapFest, I have heard was the largest gathering of NSX's ever.
If he had used the whole track it would have been a very different story.
He was coming down the inside of the straight! There's no way that driver had any idea what he was doing.
In fact the cars that followed him looked just as inexperienced, they just made the same mistake slower and got away with it.
He was coming down the inside of the straight! There's no way that driver had any idea what he was doing.
In fact the cars that followed him looked just as inexperienced, they just made the same mistake slower and got away with it.
That sucks... but he ran out of talent even before entering the turn... thats the real reason.
This was not a full on track event. It was meant to be a few exhibition laps to allow a few owners to stretch the legs of their normally road only NSX. It was also a chance for many other Japanese car enthusiasts to see and hear the NSX.
The event, Japfest, is an annual event that this year, with a lot of effort, achieved the largest ever UK and possibly European gathering at 43. Sadly only 42 went home as they arrived.
The good news, apart from all the publicity, is that our friend walked away with little more than a bruised ego.
As for the NSX, well that was bought by a fellow member from NSXCB who has parted the car out to the benefit of many other owners.
Regards,
Good update. Thanks for the info.
This is what happens when you supercharge a silver NSX and add a BBK and no suspension mods:biggrin:
http://nsxprime.com/forums/showthread.php?t=91818
http://nsxprime.com/forums/showthread.php?t=91818
Thats called a "Tank Slapper" and the key is NOT to try to steer out of it, but to allow the car to rebalance - some say let go of the wheel entirely. I've practiced this a whole bunch (under VERY controlled conditions) and I've found "slow hands" saves the car.
I fully agree - all of these guys needed proper instruction - I don't understand people who just go on the track, they have NO IDEA of the risks they're taking without proper instruction.
As I said above, spending lots of time without an instructor makes you more of an idiot than anything else, you start BELIEVING you're great, making the same stupid mistakes, but at higher speeds = more likely to crash!
Yup, had no business on the track, just like the other guys behind him who turned in tight, took the turn tight and early apexed it.
That was the problem
Exhibition laps are like amateur brain surgery, dangerous at the best of times!
Most guys think that they can Drive and F*ck better than anyone else - they are always wrong. Both are skills acquired through coaching and experience.
You got coaching at both skills?
Ewwww... TMI
Yeah, when I was 13 a nice 17 year old girl coached me in the "other" skill
Take my word for it, I was a great student!:wink:
