NSX-R Stabilizer Bar

[stuntman]

Sorry you are right, i do believe i mentioned it somewhere. I have 17 x7.5 with 215/40/17 front, 18 x9.5 265/35/18 in the rear (Dunlop Sport Maxx), Dali street/race bars, NSX R chassis bars, Bilsteins & H&Rs. I ran the NSX R swaybar up front which gave me severe understeer. On turns i use to take effortless on twisty roads (before with the stock bars), i had to really work hard to get them right after utilizing teh R swaybar. Tires and all other factors were the same. After speaking of my disappointment of teh R swaybar with MJ he referred me to his swaybars and it madea tremendous difference. Car feels more crisp on turns. I did not track the car so i am referring to my street driving experiences. I am very pleased with the way it responds in turns now.

It really helps to know to better diagnose problems and avoid mis-information/speculation/etc...

Oh, how could I forget. ALIGNMENT - camber and caster also play a significant role on the handling of your car.

FYI Angelo08:

Your H&R springs are:
Wheel rate ratio (front/rear) = 0.79
= much more front wheel rate compared to rear, adding the big type R front bar would even out the cornering wheel rates.

I don't see that your car would understeer that badly with the R front bar on it, Dalis bars seem to be (not 100% sure) but more even springrate (from the bar) front to rear, still giving you much more rear wheel rate than front.

NSX-R (02) setup:
Wheel rate ratio (front/rear) = 1.04
=Very even wheel rate with only the front springs slightly more than the rear, but the big NSX-R front bar adding more rate when cornering.

Koolaid... Alright, now with your comments/feedback you need to cough up your setup to better give us an idea about what your car is doing & why...

 

[Angelo08]

It really helps to know to better diagnose problems and avoid mis-information/speculation/etc...

Oh, how could I forget. ALIGNMENT - camber and caster also play a significant role on the handling of your car.

FYI Angelo08:

Your H&R springs are:
Wheel rate ratio (front/rear) = 0.79
= much more front wheel rate compared to rear, adding the big type R front bar would even out the cornering wheel rates.

I don't see that your car would understeer that badly with the R front bar on it, Dalis bars seem to be (not 100% sure) but more even springrate (from the bar) front to rear, still giving you much more rear wheel rate than front.

NSX-R (02) setup:
Wheel rate ratio (front/rear) = 1.04
=Very even wheel rate with only the front springs slightly more than the rear, but the big NSX-R front bar adding more rate when cornering.

Koolaid... Alright, now with your comments/feedback you need to cough up your setup to better give us an idea about what your car is doing & why...

not sure how accurate these stats are front:rear spring ratio but H&R are suppose to have more in teh rear than front.
http://www.daliracing.com/v666-5/catalog/suspension/more_springs_matrix.cfm
I can only comment on the reaction i felt after each install. Mine was not overly aggressive understeer as Koolaid states but it just was not to my liking.

 

[stuntman]

not sure how accurate these stats are front:rear spring ratio but H&R are suppose to have more in teh rear than front.
http://www.daliracing.com/v666-5/catalog/suspension/more_springs_matrix.cfm
I can only comment on the reaction i felt after each install. Mine was not overly aggressive understeer as Koolaid states but it just was not to my liking.

They are accurate.

These are the wheel rates (taken off of those same 260/275 f/r H&R spring rates.

The wheel rates are much higher in the rear (0.79) which is a big difference when compared to the spring rate ratio (0.95) -which looks good on face value, but the wheel rates (what matters) is pretty far off...

=H&R equipped car does not handle like an NSX-R (with the same swaybar)

 

[Angelo08]

=H&R equipped car does not handle like an NSX-R (with the same swaybar)

really. wow thanks for the heads up . To think my car handled like an NSXR with just a swaybar and H&Rs would be rediculous. No need to come off the way you do. Matter of trial and error finding my preferenced ride.

 

[stuntman]

really. wow thanks for the heads up . To think my car handled like an NSXR with just a swaybar and H&Rs would be rediculous.

Just trying to help... Your sarcasm dosn't seem to be helping either :biggrin:

Matter of trial and error finding my preferenced ride.

Their are cheaper ways that are more calculated than spending $ learning what dosnt work. Just trying to help. But by all means, keep buying things until you figure it out, its just not my way of doing things...

Depending on the springrate the dali bars add, you might be in the ballpark of an NSX-R...

Sofar your setup sounds pretty good...

 

[Angelo08]

Calculations dont always work out as planned or expected. For now i like the car the way it is. When i take track lessons and learn how to really optimize the NSXs suspension i will upgrade as i go. No harm done. Thanks.
Koolaid asked a simple question that was along the lines of my issue to what degree i dont know so i posted my thoughts on how i went about correcting it. Dont know how this turned into a NSXR comparison. I firmly believe to get thee most optimal intended feedback from NSXR parts you have a setup identical to the NSXR . Mixing and matching may get you oh so close but also oh so far.

 

[stuntman]

Calculations dont always work out as planned or expected.

Because most are not calculated correctly. I know what you're saying and I agree, but you can mathematically calculate the handling of a car, but it's extremely difficult and complex. But if you know what your doing and you go to those measures, you can do it. Thats why racing engineers get paid hundreds of thousands of dollars.

Koolaid asked a simple question that was along the lines of my issue to what degree i dont know so i posted my thoughts on how i went about correcting it. Dont know how this turned into a NSXR comparison.

Because it was brought up: why does the NSXR bar make the car handle so badly/understeer. And you have to look at the whole picture in order to understand. Just as you have to look at the whole picture to diagnose what the handling problem is, not just look at one factor (Swaybar) and conclude the reason behind it.

Mixing and matching may get you oh so close but also oh so far.

Not if calculated correctly :wink:

 

[Angelo08]

Because it was brought up: why does the NSXR bar make the car handle so badly/understeer. And you have to look at the whole picture in order to understand. Just as you have to look at the whole picture to diagnose what the handling problem is, not just look at one factor (Swaybar) and conclude the reason behind it.

Not if calculated correctly :wink:

Ok factory setup is loads of understeer but manageable. Then more understeer was added when i added the NSXR chassis bars (front) so by adding the NSXR front swaybar even more understeer was added. Therefore when i added a thicker set of matching swaybars front and back understeer was dialed out to some degree (not sure how much). I may be wrong but to dial out understeer i was led to believe that you have to play with the rear suspension which adds oversteer. Therefore adding some oversteer to an already understeered setup minimizes it. I am no track nor suspension expert but in simplistic terms that how i understood it. If i am wrong please feel free to correct me.

 

[KooLaid]

Oh I probably drive it into tight corners just plain too hard. I just miss the way the s2k would turn on a dime and still give change.

 

[stuntman]

Oh I probably drive it into tight corners just plain too hard. I just miss the way the s2k would turn on a dime and still give change.

What springs/shocks, wheels/tires are you running?

You could make it as twitchy as the S2000, but probably not the best idea for a daily driver because of all the weight in the back of the car -less forgiving than the S2000. NSX is a supercar, it's not as twitchy or nimble as an S2000

 

[KooLaid]

Well my setup is Tein RE spring rates set slightly below recommended from Tein. They're the basic 10/12 setup from the factory. I also set ride height (independent spring rate and ride height adjustment) to about 7/8" lower than where I was stock. I experimented with spring rates through the adjustment and I dialed it out to get rid of the ghetto bounce but still tried to stay as supple in ride as possible. Ride height was based on asthetics but I kept it reasonable high so I wouldn't bottom out on hard hits as easily. I don't remember where my dampening settings are, but they are somewhere around 2 clicks of center all the way around.

My alignment is all within spec for 93, with exception being the rear where I am at 2.1 and 2.4 degrees camber because of the lowering.

I'm running 18x8 19x9.5 all on 40 offset. I've got a mismatched set of tires but the price was EXTREMELY right. 225/35/18 Yoko AVS Sport 285/30/19 Dunlop SP9000 Sport. They're not CHEAP tires obviously since they're all upper tier in price wise. When these burn through, I'm getting 17/18s so I can get better rubber cheaper.

Greddy rear strut bar, nothing special.

Pressures are 33/38.

Formerly Type R front sway, oem coupe rear
Now Oem coupe bars all the way around.

When I drive into the corners I'm on the brakes on the straight, into the proper gear and slightly very slightly on the gas into the corners to maintain speed through the apex and hard on it on the way out.

With the type R bar, I'd have to compensate for the push and understeer by cranking over the wheel a bit extra, which may or may not be the proper action but I'm not about to upset the front/rear balance by jabbing the brakes when i know I can still make the corner (Motorcycle habit of keeping the front/rear balance neutral through the corners) So when I put the coupe bar back in front, the understeer and push went away ALOT but I was still used to having to give it extra steering input. So when I did, The car actually changed vector alot sooner and quicker than I was used to. Still feels sloppy though in comparison to a big bar.

 

[stuntman]

Well my setup is Tein RE spring rates set slightly below recommended from Tein. They're the basic 10/12 setup from the factory. I also set ride height (independent spring rate and ride height adjustment) to about 7/8" lower than where I was stock. I experimented with spring rates through the adjustment and I dialed it out to get rid of the ghetto bounce but still tried to stay as supple in ride as possible.

10/12 = 560f 672r

Did you change out the spring rates? I'm pretty sure you cannot adjust the spring rates on those coilovers. Maybe spring pre-load but i'm not sure how you are measuring that.

Do you mean the shock damping (little screw on top of the shock shaft?)

Definitely with a front bar, you need to enter corners at higher entry speeds to work that added rate from the bigger bar. Driving with maintainence throttle from turn-in to apex puts weight on the rear of the car, while stable and confidence-inspiring, its slow and not working the larger front bar. With that driving style definitely a softer front bar or stiffer bars all around will improve the handling.

So you have tiny front tires, wide rear tires, and turning while on the gas, so the weight of the car is even or more on the rear of the car, so the weight of the car is mostly over your large 285's and not much on your tiny 225 front tires... = understeer especially with a large front bar.

With that driving style and setup, I think you too will benefit from the larger front and rear dali bars.

I'd keep the 18" fronts and put 18x9.5 to 18x10.5 on the rear...

 

[KooLaid]

10/12 = 560f 672r

Did you change out the spring rates? I'm pretty sure you cannot adjust the spring rates on those coilovers. Maybe spring pre-load but i'm not sure how you are measuring that.

Do you mean the shock damping (little screw on top of the shock shaft?)

Definitely with a front bar, you need to enter corners at higher entry speeds to work that added rate from the bigger bar. Driving with maintainence throttle from turn-in to apex puts weight on the rear of the car, while stable and confidence-inspiring, its slow and not working the larger front bar. With that driving style definitely a softer front bar or stiffer bars all around will improve the handling.

So you have tiny front tires, wide rear tires, and turning while on the gas, so the weight of the car is even or more on the rear of the car, so the weight of the car is mostly over your large 285's and not much on your tiny 225 front tires... = understeer especially with a large front bar.

With that driving style and setup, I think you too will benefit from the larger front and rear dali bars.

I'd keep the 18" fronts and put 18x9.5 to 18x10.5 on the rear...

My mistake, Preload. I set it for less preload. Motorcycles I've ridden generally use clicks. The Tein don't use clicks, but they just measure distances from say the top of the strut to the adjustment rings on the springs. I just loosened it up a few mm.

yes dampening by the little screw at the top end of the shaft.

I'll probably end up going to 265's next for the rear. I wanted to run 235's front but the selection was near non existent and the prices were ridiculous.

I didn't figure constant throttle would put THAT much weight on the rear tires.

Skip Barber's sure sounds nice about now. So I enter the corner with more speed. Now it seems all that does is push harder and understeer more. Or do you mean enter the corner faster but apply the brakes later and harder, and into turn in? I can see how that would transfer ALOT of weight to the fronts and make the rear end step out quite a bit.

But you're right. That is my style because it definitely is confidence inspiring and feels considerably safe. but a match set of dali bars is definitely in the future street/race setup.

 

[Synthesis]

What? Have you guys not seen the threads like this?

http://www.nsxprime.com/forums/showthread.php?t=24233

This thread is in reference to aftermarket sway bars interfering with the chassis bar, and how the problem was made worse by sway bar spacers that were added in 1997 to lower things to make room for the bigger spare. There is also discussion about how the NSX-R front sway is shaped differently to allow plenty of clearance.

If you guys are not having any problems, then that is good. I know that after installing my front lower chassis bar, I looked at the space between the front part of the stock sway bar and the chassis bar, and there could not have been more than 2mm clearance, and that's with no compression of the suspension. I have Zanardi suspension so it's .5 inches lower. The gap will be larger for cars that are not lowered. I would expect the bar to touch under full compression. Perhaps a rare and not at all catastrophic event, but not ideal. You may never even encounter it until you happen to accidentally run full speed through a nasty drainage ditch. After installing the NSX-R front sway, there is a lot more space.

thank god. i when i saw how close my stock sway bar was to the lower chassis bar, i thought my vehicle was in an accident or something that i didn't know about. cept, with mine, i'm at stock ride height and, if i remember correctly, i had like 1mm or so of space between the two. i have never heard them hitting, but who knows....

SO, if i put the nsx-r sway on there, it should give a lot more clearance?? what about aftermarket ones.... it sounds like none of them compensate for the chassis bars.

either way, i was going to buy the R, so if somebody can tell me for sure that there will be more clearance with the R..... maybe i'll buy one right now

 

[stuntman]

I didn't figure constant throttle would put THAT much weight on the rear tires.

Minimum-case scenario constant throttle has equal weight (static) front and rear -like when the car is not moving. You have 225s up front, and 285s on the rear. The contact patch is much wider in the rear than the front giving more grip in the rear which results in understeer. The more weight you have on the rear (as you add more maintenance throttle) even more weight transfers to the rear resulting in even more understeer.

Skip Barber's sure sounds nice about now. So I enter the corner with more speed. Now it seems all that does is push harder and understeer more. Or do you mean enter the corner faster but apply the brakes later and harder, and into turn in? I can see how that would transfer ALOT of weight to the fronts and make the rear end step out quite a bit.

But you're right. That is my style because it definitely is confidence inspiring and feels considerably safe. but a match set of dali bars is definitely in the future street/race setup.

100% recommend www.skipbarber.com

It's a balance and you'll learn that at SB. But trail-braking into the corner (braking a little later and instead of popping off the brakes and going to maintenance throttle at turn-in, you're now staying on the brakes longer and relieving brake pressure as you add steering input as you get closer to the apex) puts more weight/grip on the front tires and takes away grip from the rear, resulting in less understeer - more neutral - to oversteer.

Granite, if you overload the front tires with too much steering and brakes then you'll generate understeer. These are concepts learned at a good racing school.

But also keep in mind, as you improve yourself, your driving style will change and probably go toward more entry-speed which means that the NSXR bar would actually be more beneficial to you. But the Dali bars are adjustable so you could always stiffen the front, soften the rear (or put the stock rear back on) and be in roughly the same ballpark. But the adjustably of the Dai bars is a huge plus.

 

[KooLaid]

Minimum-case scenario constant throttle has equal weight (static) front and rear -like when the car is not moving. You have 225s up front, and 285s on the rear. The contact patch is much wider in the rear than the front giving more grip in the rear which results in understeer. The more weight you have on the rear (as you add more maintenance throttle) even more weight transfers to the rear resulting in even more understeer.


100% recommend www.skipbarber.com

It's a balance and you'll learn that at SB. But trail-braking into the corner (braking a little later and instead of popping off the brakes and going to maintenance throttle at turn-in, you're now staying on the brakes longer and relieving brake pressure as you add steering input as you get closer to the apex) puts more weight/grip on the front tires and takes away grip from the rear, resulting in less understeer - more neutral - to oversteer.

Granite, if you overload the front tires with too much steering and brakes then you'll generate understeer. These are concepts learned at a good racing school.

But also keep in mind, as you improve yourself, your driving style will change and probably go toward more entry-speed which means that the NSXR bar would actually be more beneficial to you. But the Dali bars are adjustable so you could always stiffen the front, soften the rear (or put the stock rear back on) and be in roughly the same ballpark. But the adjustably of the Dai bars is a huge plus.

Damn now I gotta go out and try that out! Trail braking........ scary stuff because of past reasons on the sportbike. First time out in the mountains practicing that, I accidentally gave the rear brake a little too much input. High sided. Right into a guard rail head first. No damage to me, major damage to my pride, bike had exhaust and plastic damage but nothing too bad, still costed almost $5000 to repair. I'll give it a try in the car though.

thank god. i when i saw how close my stock sway bar was to the lower chassis bar, i thought my vehicle was in an accident or something that i didn't know about. cept, with mine, i'm at stock ride height and, if i remember correctly, i had like 1mm or so of space between the two. i have never heard them hitting, but who knows....

SO, if i put the nsx-r sway on there, it should give a lot more clearance?? what about aftermarket ones.... it sounds like none of them compensate for the chassis bars.

either way, i was going to buy the R, so if somebody can tell me for sure that there will be more clearance with the R..... maybe i'll buy one right now

wanna buy mine?

 

[Synthesis]

wanna buy mine?

does that mean the nsx-r bar will give me added clearance? if i remember correctly, it was only an issue on the passenger side of the car (i think.... it was a while ago now). is that typical?

 

[KooLaid]

I didn't have a clearance issue with my Type R bar at all. I wasn't running the Type R chasis bars though.


So I tried some trail braking this evening. It actually turned very well. Very planted front end, the rear end wasn't too noticably squirrely. And I know that this techique worked because when I let off the brake at the apex, the front end pushed and understeered again. Then again.... I could of been entering this corner at a slower speed than I normally do too.... I wasn't pay attention too much to my speed since I was focused in on the task at hand, trail braking.