NSX....still wanted?

[PoohBEAR]

hi guys and gals,
i have been looking and tracking the nsx market for several months now. it seems that the same one would come up for sales over and over again. someone tell me what is wrong with this picture? is the economy hitting hard that no one would sign the check anymore? no financing? or people are not loving this beautiful puppy anymore? please give out your opionion on this matter.

 

[b00mer]

I wish I knew...I'm planning to purchase one within 6 months and this is good news for me, but I'm afraid that in the big picture of things, that since no one is buying them and keeping them, how come I am?

 

[Reason]

Originally posted by yellowpad:
or people are not loving this beautiful puppy anymore?

The current economic climate absolutely impacts this sort of car market, but I can tell you that NSX owners still love their cars, as do most exotic owners (I was on a drive with a bunch of NSX, Viper, Ferrari, Lotus, De Tomaso and other owners this weekend). Lots of love for each other's cars, one of the few times everyone can honestly talk about their cars and experiences and enjoy them on the road. Autozotica rocks!

So yeah, take advantage of the market if you can. I'd seriously consider buying another Kaiser Silver NSX that is soon to be on sale if I could figure out where to put it...

 

[nsxtasy]

Originally posted by yellowpad:
it seems that the same one would come up for sales over and over again. someone tell me what is wrong with this picture? is the economy hitting hard that no one would sign the check anymore? no financing? or people are not loving this beautiful puppy anymore?

There are different factors going on, and different causes for them.

When the same car goes up for sale repeatedly, I would guess that owners who can't really afford the cost of ownership "cheap out" by buying a low-cost NSX (say, in the $25-28K range), and then find out that it wasn't such a bargain after all, either needing lots of maintenance that had previously been deferred or incurring expensive mechanical failures due to lack of maintenance or high mileage.

A well-kept, well-maintained NSX commands a premium on the market, is more likely to sell quickly when put up for sale, and is less likely to be re-sold by the new owner.

I don't think the poor economy is a factor in a few particular cars being sold over and over again. However, the economy is a factor in driving prices of used NSXs downward, particularly the newer ones ('97+).

 

[Timbo]

I'm in same situation as you - in the market for an earlier Targa, and its frustrating to try to guage what "real market prices" look like right now, because you're right, you see a lot of the same cars for sale over and over, you see alot of griping that "your price is ridiculous" on the messageboards (some of it by me ;-) and if you watch eBay, nothing ever sells there.

Here's my take: at any given time, every car has a "real market value", and that value is less in bad times than good. And right now NSX sellers are trying to weather the storm, they don't want to drop their prices to reflect the bad economy, and so they effectively hold onto their cars by pricing their cars at the "old" boom-era prices in the off-chance that someone might bite. I have no proof of this, it just seems subjectively to me that far fewer sales are getting made now. Kinda like how no one likes to sell a stock at a loss - they want to wait to see if it rebounds.

For example - I have been watching eBay for NSX's, and here are some of the cars I watched go thru auction:

1995 black, 37K miles, car went thru eBay 4 times, starting price was always $40.2K, never got a bid: http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1852224229
Odd that they never lowered their price one nickel. Car looks very nice, but obviously no eBayer thinks its worth $40.2K.

1996 black, 19K miles, highest bid = $40.1K, didnt hit reserve: http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1849593535

1996 white, 44K miles, highest bid = $33.3K, didnt hit reserve. http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1863968838

Notice how these cars never got bids anywhere close to the prices that you see posted in the classifieds, and not just these but eBay cars NEVER hit their reserve. Has any car EVER sold on eBay? Yes, its very hard to tell anything about a car on eBay, thus there will be some built-in discount, and maybe eBay sellers want to just collect emails and make private deals. But after a couple months of browsing, it seems obvious to me that there is a massive gap between perceived values by owners and sellers, and indeed a lot of the same cars stay on the market for months. My best guess, as you say, is the depressed market, COMBINED w/ a reluctance by owners to "concede defeat" to the down market. Most NSX owners can afford to weather the storm. all just IMHO, of course!

 

[nsxtasy]

Lud has assembled a guide to NSX pricing in the FAQ here, and I think it's a pretty good representation of where the market is right now.

The description of the '95-96 cars cited puts them into the "B" category ("Very good condition. Average to lower miles"). Lud has this category listed in the $40-45K and $45-50K category. I think that's correct, and that a fair selling price for such a car is somewhere in the $42-46K range.

I think NSX bid prices on eBay are often lower than you find elsewhere. I believe this is due to some additional risk perceived in the entire eBay process, from the possibility of misrepresentation of the car's condition, to the possibility that a buyer OR seller is not serious and negotiating in good faith. Just my O.

I am not disagreeing with your other point, that sellers may have their reserve price set higher than a fair market value, due to wishful thinking and/or lack of familiarity with the market. But we don't see the reserve price, so we don't really know.

 

[JPS Europa]

The other thing that I think happens with big ticket Ebay items is that a dialogue becomes established between the seller and one or more potential buyers and that the car sells outside Ebay after inspections and financing becomes arranged. It appears on Ebay that the car did not sell. Ebay sometimes just acts as a national "want ad"

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Happy Motoring At all Costs!

 

[mlambert890]

I would also add that with a car like the NSX, there is really no "giving in to the down market".

This is a very niche automobile and it is a long sales cycle to find a real buyer. You'll always have an army of people willing to pay 30% less than what the car should be going for with a niche automobile, but that doesn't mean the seller is pricing too high.

I don't see Ferrari, Porsche or Viper owners cutting dreamers a huge deal. They wait for a real buyer.

 

[tabasco]

Originally posted by spookyp:
I would also add that with a car like the NSX, there is really no "giving in to the down market".

This is a very niche automobile and it is a long sales cycle to find a real buyer. You'll always have an army of people willing to pay 30% less than what the car should be going for with a niche automobile, but that doesn't mean the seller is pricing too high.

I don't see Ferrari, Porsche or Viper owners cutting dreamers a huge deal. They wait for a real buyer.

Couldn't have said it better. I have had my '00 for sale for many months. I originally put up for $69,500, then after a few months dropped it to $65,900. If there were a higher raiting than "A+" (Lud's FAQ) mine would have it. It is more than perfect. I get lots of calls and emails from dreamers offering $60K or there abouts. That's a reasonable offer I guess, but it should not shock them that it is not acceptable.

...They wait for a real buyer...

I have a buyer about 300 miles away that is extremely interested, but is out of the country. He is planning a trip in late Nov to inspect. He is very interested in my color and the extremly good condition. He already knows the price is firm.

I am in no hurry to sell and if I keep it that will be fine. The current market conditions have ZERO bearing on the sale or price of my car. Anyone who grabs it at $65,900 will be getting a great bargain and one of the best NSXs out there.

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• '00 Candy Apple Blue / Black, #264
• My Card
• My NSX
• My Legend

 

[Timbo]

Originally posted by nsxtasy:
Lud has assembled a guide to NSX pricing in the FAQ here, and I think it's a pretty good representation of where the market is right now.

The description of the '95-96 cars cited puts them into the "B" category ("Very good condition. Average to lower miles"). Lud has this category listed in the $40-45K and $45-50K category. I think that's correct, and that a fair selling price for such a car is somewhere in the $42-46K range.
...

Thanks - couple questions: do you know if Lud's price table is based on reports of actual sales, or just ads or a "general feeling"? And when was it was compiled? If it were more than a few months ago, that would be a different market than it is now.

I don't mean to critique - you and Lud are super-knowledgable and helpful - but unless they are based on actual recent sales, I have a hard time believing them, since I see car after car go thru eBay w/ no bids anywhere close to those (and eBay ads are not free!), or sitting on the market a long time unsold at those prices.

Maybe cars are privately selling for more, I dont know. The only place I know of to see actual sale prices is on eBay.. and of course nothing ever sells there, so that leaves zippo for data points. Sigh..

Gee, wouldnt it be nice if there were a place where people posted their actual RECENT sales prices.. ;-)

 

[NSX-GUY]

Originally posted by tabasco:
Couldn't have said it better. I have had my '00 for sale for many months. I originally put up for $69,500, then after a few months dropped it to $65,900. If there were a higher raiting than "A+" (Lud's FAQ) mine would have it. It is more than perfect. I get lots of calls and emails from dreamers offering $60K or there abouts. That's a reasonable offer I guess, but it should not shock them that it is not acceptable.

...They wait for a real buyer...

I have a buyer about 300 miles away that is extremely interested, but is out of the country. He is planning a trip in late Nov to inspect. He is very interested in my color and the extremly good condition. He already knows the price is firm.

I am in no hurry to sell and if I keep it that will be fine. The current market conditions have ZERO bearing on the sale or price of my car. Anyone who grabs it at $65,900 will be getting a great bargain and one of the best NSXs out there.

Sorry guys, but I think you're mistaken.

I think you should have "roped that guy in" before he went on vacation.

It's supply and demand just like anything else. YOU may think your car is worth $65.9K but if there are NO buyers at that price then sorry, it's not worth it.

((Old stock market joke. Client yells at the broker "Sell. Sell !!!!". Broker yells back at client "To WHO. To WHO !!!") There are people that will still tell you Enron's worth a couple of bucks a share. Bet you don't want to buy any though, right ?)

Anyway, you are at a particularly vulnerable price point right now because a BRAND NEW '02 NSX IS being offered for around $72K. That being the case, how can you possibly "get lots of calls and emails from dreamers offering $60K or there abouts" and think they're "dreamers"

I believe your car has upper 40K miles, right ? (Can't tell because the "links" in your signature don't seem to work. Hope the car works better. Take it EASY. It's just a joke)

The "kinnsela NSX" for sale here on nsxprime has a Blue '99 with 10K extra Comptech equipment and (I believe) only 18K miles and he's having trouble at $60K. (Frankly, I am "considering" it)

Yet, you (and spooky) think THEY (the potential buyers) are the "dreamers" ? Right now, any objective person with any sense would say YOU were the "dreamer", not the buyers.

OTOH, you DO say you're not in any hurry to sell. Good thing for your sake. You're certainly not selling at mid-60's while the economy is in the tank and the dealers still have '02's.

Good luck to you. Hope you sell it to that guy when he comes back from vacation.

 

[NSX-GUY]

Almost forgot the original topic.

When the economy tanks "luxury items" are the first to go unpurchased.

It's the "trickle down" effect. Saudi sheiks don't buy that new $50 million yacht. Sports stars don't buy that new $20 million mansion, poor hitting shortstops don't buy that Lamborghini and *I* don't buy that $90K NSX.

The market shrinks for all luxury items first among all income groups. Natural fear of the unknown.

 

[Timbo]

Originally posted by tabasco:

...
Anyone who grabs it at $65,900 will be getting a great bargain and one of the best NSXs out there.

No disrespect intended, but this seems to me like another example of the universal gap in perceived values by sellers and shoppers, and why NSXs never sell. If the report of brand new '02's going for $72,475 is true, then I wouldn't consider a $6500 savings over a new car to be a "great bargain".

(http://www.nsxprime.com/ubb/Forum24/HTML/000062.html)

If someone pays $65.9K for your car, then that's what it's worth. And if you want to keep it, great! But until it does sell, I don't know how you can be so sure it is a "great bargain".

 

[steveny]

Originally posted by nsxtasy:
There are different factors going on, and different causes for them.

When the same car goes up for sale repeatedly, I would guess that owners who can't really afford the cost of ownership "cheap out" by buying a low-cost NSX (say, in the $25-28K range), and then find out that it wasn't such a bargain after all, either needing lots of maintenance that had previously been deferred or incurring expensive mechanical failures due to lack of maintenance or high mileage.

A well-kept, well-maintained NSX commands a premium on the market, is more likely to sell quickly when put up for sale, and is less likely to be re-sold by the new owner.

I don't think the poor economy is a factor in a few particular cars being sold over and over again. However, the economy is a factor in driving prices of used NSXs downward, particularly the newer ones ('97+).

That's a BIG DITTO.

 

[steveny]

Originally posted by Timbo:
For example - I have been watching eBay for NSX's, and here are some of the cars I watched go thru auction:

1995 black, 37K miles, car went thru eBay 4 times, starting price was always $40.2K, never got a bid: http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1852224229
Odd that they never lowered their price one nickel. Car looks very nice, but obviously no eBayer thinks its worth $40.2K.

Worth is a matter of opinion. I am an e bayer and I would without a doubt buy this car for 40.2k in a heart beat. The fact is all of the "so called auctions" that you have provided links to are not actual auctions. Being that an actual auction would sell the car to the highest bidder regardless of the ending price. Ebay is not a great source to gauge the NSX market.

 

[steveny]

Originally posted by NSX-GUY:
Almost forgot the original topic.

When the economy tanks "luxury items" are the first to go unpurchased.

It's the "trickle down" effect. Saudi sheiks don't buy that new $50 million yacht. Sports stars don't buy that new $20 million mansion, poor hitting shortstops don't buy that Lamborghini and *I* don't buy that $90K NSX.

The market shrinks for all luxury items first among all income groups. Natural fear of the unknown.

Reported figures on CNBC suggested that Jaguar sales had the largest gain this year. This maybe a direct result of lower interest rates making it affordable to buy a pricier vehicle.

 

[Timbo]

Originally posted by steveny:

Worth is a matter of opinion. I am an e bayer and I would without a doubt buy this car for 40.2k in a heart beat. The fact is all of the "so called auctions" that you have provided links to are not actual auctions. Being that an actual auction would sell the car to the highest bidder regardless of the ending price. Ebay is not a great source to gauge the NSX market.

OK, if you want to quibble w/ my statement that no one thinks its "worth" $40.2K, then fine, I'll take that back. I'm typing quickly here, and I was kinda hoping my point would be clear despite my clumsiness. It got no bids in *4* trips thru eBay - make of that what you will.

eBay may be a bad way to gauge the market, but it is also (AFAIK) the ONLY place we can ever see actual bids (and theoretcially, selling prices, though that remains a mythical, Loch Ness-like beast). And on this admittedly bad scale, the eBay marketplace values these cars a whole lot lower than the owners.

Let me ask - how do YOU gauge the NSX market? Not being snide - I'd really like to know.

 

[huckster]

hhmmmm. IMO common sense tells me that the nsx market is likely a little more depressed than it would have been 1 1/2 years ago---but not significantly so. I may not have bought the nsx if id waited till now, but then again i'm not prepared to part with it and would buy another exotic car again.

i dont think the majority of people who can afford exotic cars and already have one are likely to give one up without replacing it, just because of the current economy. NEW entrants into the exotic car market may be currently dissuaded.

funny enough, ive had three people who i know fairly well through my work ask me about buying my nsx, knowing full well the value/cost.

dont see any firesales happenin around here in the near future....

 

[Lud]

The myth that no NSXs are selling

As far as I can tell, there has not been an increase or decrease in the number of NSXs trading hands. I get e-mails from new owners all the time. Quite a few people who have posted here mentioned that they have bought their NSX this year... For a specialty car that only sells 200 NEW copies a year, and less than 8000 total in the country, I think that's pretty decent.

The fact that a few specific cars are not selling quickly does not, IMO, say much about the market. The fact is Honda only sold a few blue NSXs in 2000. So does the fact that a premium car at a premium price on the resale market takes a while to sell surprise anyone? Unless the seller is in a hurry to sell, they should EXPECT to have to wait for the right buyer if they want to get a good price for the car, because as sales numbers for NEW NSXs show, there is a pretty small market of people looking to spend that much money for that car.

So, I believe the basic assumption that NSX sales have slowed is wrong. I certainly do not know about all or even most NSX sales, but I do hear from a lot more NSX buyers than the average person. Certainly a better indicator than trying to watch what "sells" on eBay at least.


http://www.nsxprime.com/FAQ/BuySell/pricing.htm

I put this together just this month, but the prices I've heard from people really haven't deviated from the standard depreciation curve so it doesn't really matter. As mentioned before I do hear from a lot of buyers, some of who tell me the price they paid. So I came up with those prices as a result of that and generally being in touch with a lot of NSX owners that are buying, selling, etc.


The Economy

Someone makes money in any economy. I bought my 1998 NSX-T in late 2000, well after the little graph on the nightly news had gone way down hill and the high-tech bubble had burst. If you yourself are shopping for an NSX today, you are in fact PROOF that the economy does not affect everyone the same way.

The fact is, while there may be execeptions, the majority of NSX owners are not in a financial position that they have to sell their their cars because of a general economic downturn. And if they do decide to sell for whatever reason, they are not in a position to have to drastically cut the price just to get a quick sale. And for the ones who ARE in that position, there are many people who recognize the bargain and are in a financial position to jump on the car and buy it very quickly.

While the economic down-turn may be limiting the people who finance a 10+ year old $30k car, the majority of people who own high-end "toy" cars just are not worried about it.


Depreciation Rates For Different Model Years

I do not see any real indication that the depreciation rates have changed on NSXs. In fact it has been very uniform with minor dips or bumps here and there (introduction of the -T, introduction of the 6-speed/3.2L, etc.) '97 cars are hardly new anymore, they are FIVE YEARS old! Their depreciation is right in line with previous model years if you do the math.


eBay?

eBay price data is probably worse than no data because it is BAD data. Consider the following facts:

1. Many serious buyers would never consider buying an NSX through eBay unless they knew the seller because of the risks. I am one such person.

2. The inability for most potential bidders to inspect the car prior to their bid prevents them from bidding beyond an absolute minimal amount, i.e. "this car HAS to be worth at least $XXX even if it's in bad shape."

3. Many sellers use eBay only as an advertising forum, not as an actual mechanism to set the price and close the deal. Potential buyers e-mail them, and the two parties negotiate the deal on the car outside of eBay. Thus the real price is never reported on eBay.

4. Many of the NSXs on eBay are trashed, wrecked, salvage title, etc.


High Churn Rate Among Certain Cars

I don't want to get into anyone's particular financial situation here, but I have seen plenty of people buy NSXs that couldn't afford them. Those people tend to buy from the bottom of the market because they are having trouble getting financing or making payments on the more expensive cars. When they buy from the bottom, they end up with a car with issues. Those issues can be expensive for someone who had trouble buying the car to begin with. As a result they end up deciding the car is not for them or they get upset with all the problems and then sell it, or they decide they need to sell it to buy a house, etc. and the cycle repeats itself. That has nothing to do with the model and everything to do with a particular segment of the market. The same thing happens with other sports cars. I have seen this a LOT more in the last few years as the lower-end NSXs have dropped into the mid-$20s.

[This message has been edited by Lud (edited 22 October 2002).]

 

[nsxtasy]

Originally posted by Timbo:
Thanks - couple questions: do you know if Lud's price table is based on reports of actual sales, or just ads or a "general feeling"? And when was it was compiled? If it were more than a few months ago, that would be a different market than it is now.

It was compiled within the past few weeks. It was based on input from a number of individuals, including myself.

Originally posted by Timbo:
Let me ask - how do YOU gauge the NSX market? Not being snide - I'd really like to know.

I use many sources of information about the NSX market, and I use all of them in determining what seems like a fair price.

One source is autotrader.com, which is the biggest listing source for dealers selling cars. When I look at listings there, I don't pay much attention to the top half of the listings when sequenced by price, since I consider those either "wishful thinking" or specialty cars. I look at the lower half of prices, and take into account the fact that most sellers and buyers expect to haggle 5-10 percent off the listed price.

Another source is actual sales. I am often contacted by prospective buyers and sellers who tell me of particular cars and the offers they have negotiated.

I adjust my estimates of fair market value based on condition and mods (although mods are rarely worth what the seller believes they are).

I have friends who are dealers who buy and sell used NSXs for a living. I bounce thoughts off them from time to time, and more often than not, they tell me I'm right on the money.

If you feel that the prices in Lud's table are not accurate, by all means feel free to post your opinion in this topic which Lud has created. Be prepared to explain WHY you disagree - not just a "general feeling", but prove your statements by citing recent sales and ads.

Originally posted by Timbo:
Worth is a matter of opinion. I am an e bayer and I would without a doubt buy this car for 40.2k in a heart beat. The fact is all of the "so called auctions" that you have provided links to are not actual auctions. Being that an actual auction would sell the car to the highest bidder regardless of the ending price. Ebay is not a great source to gauge the NSX market.

I agree that eBay is not a great source to gauge the NSX market. However, I disagree when you claim that an auction which includes a reserve price is not "an actual auction". The reserve price is one feature of the auction process. It has been used for many years in commercial, in-person auctions, and is not something that was introduced by eBay.

FWIW, I don't think much of someone such as the seller of the $40.2K NSX, who puts something up for auction with a minimum starting bid and a reserve price. These two features serve the same purpose - ensuring a minimum sale price. Using both of them on an auction sounds like the seller is not serious and is only interested in jerking people around. Just my O.

Originally posted by huckster:
hhmmmm. IMO common sense tells me that the nsx market is likely a little more depressed than it would have been 1 1/2 years ago---but not significantly so.

I disagree. Eighteen months ago, you had to pay in the low sixties for a nice '97. Now, you can get one for around fifty. That's a big drop. Maybe half of that decrease is due to the fact that the car is five years old instead of three and a half, but the other half is due to a drop in the market.

However, prices of the '91-96 seem to be holding fairly steady in that same period.

 

[Tom Larkins]

Based on Luds chart I paid on the upper end on the scale and its one target IMO for a one owner 96 w/almost 5k in mileage a year.


For what its worth, one thing of consideration is demographics (age group) of owners and the financial ability of an individual to be able to afford this type of car or other presumed to be a "toy" or whatever car. When I was 25 I would have been more likley to buy something that had a little more (financial risk) wear to get it and conversly reflected in sale price. Now that i'm older and my economy is a bit more stable i'm willing to pay the extra for the right maintained car w/good history. In short, most of us never no the circumstances for which one has to sell/or wants to buy, but if your seeing a consistant turn-over that should tell you something within that segment of the market only and it may not be the real indication specific to this or other type cars.

 

[nsxtasy]

Originally posted by Tom Larkins:
Based on Luds chart I paid on the upper end on the scale and its one target IMO for a one owner 96 w/almost 5k in mileage a year.

i'm willing to pay the extra for the right maintained car w/good history.

The right maintained car with good history is part of where Lud's chart differentiates an "A" car or, with very low miles, an "A+" car, from a good-condition "B" car at a dealership.

 

[huckster]

hey nsxtasy, how r ya. i would think that the drop in the year range you mentioned would be expected considering the newer model upgrades and the current age of that year. this range is not 4-5yrs old now, it's 5-7yrs. in the mind of many buyers that is a big difference. i would guess that the first gen 91/92 dropped about the same in 96/97 when they were 5-6yrs old and the new upgraded nsx was out.

what do you think??

the whole point of my earlier post was that there may be, my supposition, fewer new entrants into the exotic market with the current economy, but current exotic owners are still owning, buying, selling like always.

 

[Lud]

Originally posted by nsxtasy:
I disagree. Eighteen months ago, you had to pay in the low sixties for a nice '97. Now, you can get one for around fifty. That's a big drop. Maybe half of that decrease is due to the fact that the car is five years old instead of three and a half, but the other half is due to a drop in the market.

I think I disagree, though I have not done any exhaustive analysis, but let's take a quick look:

In 2002, a 1997 car is 5 years old. The average selling price for new 1997s was probably $75k (invoice was $72k and change). 70% of $75k is $52,500.

In 1997, a 1992 was 5 years old. The average selling price for a new 1992 was what, $58k? If so, 70% of that is $40,600, which as I recall is in line with the price of an average 1992 NSX in 1997.

So it looks like the depreciation curve as a % of new sale price is the same, but the fact that the 1997 was more expensive to begin with makes it appear to be more rapid at first glance.


[This message has been edited by Lud (edited 22 October 2002).]

 

[tabasco]

Originally posted by NSX-GUY:
...I believe your car has upper 40K miles, right ? (Can't tell because the "links" in your signature don't seem to work. Hope the car works better. Take it EASY. It's just a joke)...

Just to set the record straight, my NSX has 6.5K babied miles. Sorry about the links, I am in the process of replacing my server, the links will be up later today.




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• '00 Candy Apple Blue / Black, #264
• My Card
• My NSX
• My Legend