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NSX wins 2016 Pikes Peak in Time Attack 2 class; 2nd in EV class
- Thread starter NSX2398
- Start date
Well how about that!
Thanks for posting the link.
Thanks for posting the link.
And it beat two 2016 ACR Vipers as well!! It beat the closest Viper by more than 11 seconds!
That seems like quite an achievement since the Viper ACR is basically a race car that can be driven on public roads.
That seems like quite an achievement since the Viper ACR is basically a race car that can be driven on public roads.
Some interviews and in car video
What I've been expecting with SH-AWD on this car.
From my experience of SH-AWD, it doesn't defy the laws of physics, but what it does do, if driven correctly, is to maximize the tyre's
available grip all the time. If you put top racing drivers in each car, the difference in pace would evaporate, as that's what the best
drivers achieve. But for anyone below that capability, it'll be no contest most of the time.
Is that why all the pro racers have ABS braking, traction control and AWD on their racing cars? I would never have guessed! 
Let's not forget that the NSX benefits from the turbos as well. For a high altitude climb like this, I'm sure the Viper is way down on power in addition to no awd and the torque fill of the electric motors. For all the NSX track folk who claimed the new NSX would have depleted the battery pack after one lap, this climb would likely be way worse than a track day since there is probably very little braking on the way up. I wonder what the battery pack level was at the top and whether the 3rd motor/gen was able to keep up.
On the Viper forums, there is talk of overheating problems on the ACRs near the top.
Good to see no (reported) heat problems with the NSX.
Also, I agree that turbos are a real benefit at altitude. But EV power is even MORE immune to atmosphere-- assuming the (turbo) ICE has enough excess power to keep batteries charged.
Good to see no (reported) heat problems with the NSX.
Also, I agree that turbos are a real benefit at altitude. But EV power is even MORE immune to atmosphere-- assuming the (turbo) ICE has enough excess power to keep batteries charged.
That's kind of weird. I wouldn't have thought that elevation would have any impact on overheating. Jeez, I thought I even saw snowpack beside the road near the top so I'm guessing the ambient air temp would be pretty low.
I agree. Here's a link to forum discussion:
http://driveviper.com/forums/threads/14347-2016-Pikes-Peak-Hill-Climb-Challenge!/page3
I don't think the Viper ACR has much to worry about on road courses versus the NSX. It is VERY track-focused for a street car. The NSX has many design goals, but beating the ACR around a track is probably not something that was considered important. IMHO, you should not judge a general-purpose performance car against one with huge wings and garish (for a street car) aero-bits.
There's a lot less air per volume at higher elevations, so the cooling ability of air is a lot less, even if the air is cooler. At sea level there's about 1.2 kg of air per cubic meter. At 4000 meters (13,123 feet) there's only 0.82 kg per m3. That's a lot less air to move heat away with. http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/weather/wstdatmo.htm
With the higher altitude, there's lower pressure and lower humidity - I wonder if the teams have looked at misting the radiators to help with cooling. The evaporative effect could be significant. (Or not. I'm just speculating.)
Another possible overheating cause at high altitude is air bubbles forming in the coolant due to the lower pressure resulting in a lower boiling point. Usually the cooling systems are pressurized to prevent boiling though, aren't they?
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Wasn't the NSX about as quick as the ACR around Thermal Raceway earlier this year?
It was a bit faster? I want to see production vs production, not pre-production.
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Good Morning Viper Nation!
We have a very exciting event on the horizon! June 26th, 2016 the Viper ACR will tackle the Pikes Peak Hill Climb Challenge! We have 10 days to put together an event to support this team!
We may see another Viper ACR Production car record at this event.
Here's the details of this event.
The Course
- 12.42 Miles
- 156 Turns
- Start Elevation = 9,390 ft
- Finish Elevation = 14,115 ft
- Qualifying / Lower Testing Section = Starting Line @ 9,390 ft to below Glen Cove @ 11,250 ft
- Upper Testing Section = Glen Cove @ 11,440 ft to Summit @ 14,115 ft
- Class Entered: Time Attack 2 (TA2) for Production Cars
To prepare for the event, the car was shipped down to Mooresville, NC for safety and performance upgrades.
Before even arriving in Colorado for testing, the car had received well over 300 man hours of preparation. Between transportation, testing, disassembly, roll cage fabrication, exhaust fabrication, all necessary safety updates and reassembling of the car; it was an exhaustive amount of work in a very short period of time. The primary focus for this event has always been that the car must be prepared to a competitive level. There was never any intention to arrive at Pikes Peak with a car that could not compete for a victory.
The reception of the car by the staff at of the Pike Peak International Hill Climb has been fantastic. Everyone loves the car and they are very excited to see the return US manufacturers to the event. Every time the car runs during practice it draws a crowd of spectators to the line. One, the car is breathtaking. Two, we are running open headers with straight pipes. The sound is fantastic and sets the car apart from the rest of the competitors with its distinctive V10 sound and open exhaust.
A high altitude racing event is not perceived to be a competitive landscape for a normally aspirated automobile. These types of events are typically dominated by forced induction cars. To date, based on our practice performance, we have found that the V10 is performing beautifully at altitude and making more power than expected. Currently we are able to carry over 120 mph into the Bottomless Pit section of the course at 12,760 ft.
This engine performance would not be possible without the calibration assistance of Rob Jones and the VP Racing Fuels MS 109e. To say that the performance is better than expected is an understatement. It so far exceeds what I expected, I just can’t thank everyone enough that has been involved with that part of the program.
The Kumho tires have been performing very well, even in the cold upper section of the course that still has snow and hasn’t risen above 40 degrees F during our testing. Tom O’Dell has continued to dial in the pressures to try and maintain consistency from the bottom of the course to the top, all while accounting for the large variation in altitude. The tires are coming up to temps quickly and we have been very pleased with the tire wear to date.
Our first test weekend was meant to simply be used as a reconnaissance of the event and the course. Being a Rookie at Pikes Peak, racing along cliffs that drop thousands of feet with no guard rail, we had to be realistic and take a couple days to learn the course and the event. Our learning curve was fairly quick and we were able to post fast time for all Time Attack cars at the first test.
We had some fog in the upper session and 2 Mule Deer slowed us in our lower testing, but we gathered a significant amount of valuable data for tuning in the high altitude. The second test weekend was really where the competition would start to be seen. Both the TA1 and TA2 factory entered Acura NSX’s would be at the test. Each car is being driven by a Pikes Peak Veteran of many years and Honda/Acura have had a very strong presence at Pikes Peak over the last few years. In 2016 they have 3 factory back entries and in 2015 Honda fielded 13 different entries in 11 different classes. It’s interesting to note that Acura is touting Pikes Peak as the North American racing debut for the next-generation NSX and I believe that Pikes Peak is also the 5th Gen Viper ACR North American racing debut as well.
Saturday we ran the Lower Testing Section, which is also the Qualifying Section. Right from the start the dominance of the Viper ACR was apparent. At no point throughout the test session could the Acura’s better our times and we finished the day with a 7 second margin between our best time and their TA2 entry.
Sunday’s runs were on the Upper Testing Section from Glen Cove to the Summit. This is really the area where the Normally Aspirated power starts to fall off significantly and the Hybrid and Forced Induction advantages could be realized by Acura. The Upper Section also has the corners with the highest drops and steepest cliffs, which the Veteran Racers have more experience handling.
In the end, the Viper ACR performed flawlessly and we were able to post our fastest run in the 4th session and end the day less than 2 seconds behind the Acura’s. That is truly an amazing achievement since the Upper Testing Section begins with a downhill standing start and the Viper cannot launch from that type of road anywhere near as well as the All-Wheel Drive Acura’s. We left the day very happy and excited for the coming race week.
In total after testing, compared to a full run, we are leading the factory backed Acura effort by over 5 seconds. Our estimated full course times look to be in the 10:09 – 10:14 range and that puts us about 13-16 seconds under the existing TA2 record pace. With some minor adjustments to the car prior to race week, the hope of clean runs with no animal intervention, the Viper ACR is on pace to an exciting event.
We have 3 distinct goals for this event…
- Beat the factory backed Acura and win the TA2 class
- Set a lap time faster than the existing 10:26.896 TA2 class record
- Become the first Production Car to break the 10 minute barrier
We will consider this event a success by just winning the TA2 class, but after our performance at the test sessions, all 3 goals are well within reach.
I'll leave this here from the original post. They spent over 300 man hours preparing for the event and were confident they would beat Acura and the V10 was up to snuff... Very confident in the post actually if you read it thoroughly.
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I find it interesting already that the performance difference is up in the air for a would-be "GT V6 car" and purely track focused V10 monster.
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fastaussie
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i agree, it's not a fair comparo. the NSX is a street car, the Viper not-so-much. but the results stand, the NSX still beat it. so an impressive feat nonetheless.
this is a specific venue which may reward driver bravado more than finding the actual limits of each vehicle, one should take that into account? much like the Isle of Man TT motorcycle races. the rider is the limit, not the bike.
regardless, a very auspicious debut.
p.s. what where the other vehicles in the class? someone mentioned a Porsche 911 Turbo holds the record?
Thks for that link. Interesting reading. Some are theorizing that Acura adjusted the power split between gas motor and electrics as they got closer to the top to take some load off the gas motor and help keep it from overheating .. which I doubt they'd go to the effort of doing. More likely that they benefited from all the last minute "thermal mgmt" re-work in the development cycle that Ted talked about at NSXPO in Ohio to make sure things stayed cool.
I agree that this type of race is driver based also. Those roads have got to be terrifying in those open/no rails heights for many reason beyond engineering and also physiology of the driver. The thin air has a mental strain on the driver too so one would want to be in the more confident inspiring car also, even if the drivers were all veteran and pros.
Agreed that driver bravado is paramount on such a track, but as I mentioned in another post, the real benefits of SH-AWD is that it allows the driver to approach levels of maximized grip that only pro drivers achieve with any regularity, if you know how to extract it.
When a 2006 Legend, with only tyre pressure adjustments can corner a 180 degree bend on the race track [turn 1 at Barbagallo Raceway], faster than a race prepared "Saloon Car" Commodore [I left him behind from just before the apex], it certainly opened my eyes to what algorithms can do for the chassis! This was 2007, and I've been anticipating Honda putting SH-AWD in a proper chassis ever since...........
fastaussie
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i know Barbagallo Raceway, been there before. AWD does pay massive dividends in acceleration, but if your 2006 Legend streetcar is outcornering or driving away from a race-prepped Holden Commodore, i don't think the driver behind you was pushing at all...
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p.s. what is the record holder for the class, and what other cars run in it? the NSX has a very specific powertrain.
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p.s. what is the record holder for the class, and what other cars run in it? the NSX has a very specific powertrain.
It was 3rd in the overall unlimited class and 2nd in the EV class if I remember correctly.
Barbs doesn't look anything like that now, and I haven't made it to a bike race in years..........
What year were you there, looks like early-mid 2000s?I wrote up a long post on Acurazine and the "Temple" at the time. Lap times were high 73s [the Legend is a heavy luxury sedan after all!], and the "Saloon Cars" back then were quick if they could do 68s [running modifed V6s, not V8s]. In context, the Commodore closed up onto my rear in the braking zone. I know he was trying because he started drifting wide of the correct line just after the apex, and was understeering heavily in the second part of the corner, while I was under full acceleration [what little there was from the power to weight ratio of a Legend!] tucked up against the inside kerb ready for the transition into the esses. Of course he was trying to dive bomb me by the time we got to the Left Hander.
It is hard to comprehend I know, but you really need to experience the Legends SH-AWD set-up, and what it can do, to fully appreciate it. It was an eye opener!!! Hence my anticipation of what the NSX will bring to the track. But that will pale into insignificance when it comes to real world, public road pace. On decent tyres it should elicit breath-taking levels of grip and speed, in the dry, but especially in the wet, if the driver knows what he is doing. Then again, I might be wrong?
P.S. The Legend was set up stiffer than the Acura RL.
fastaussie
Suspended
that photo was 2005.
i get what you're saying, while hardly a controlled comparison however. and i do know the advantages of AWD in its many variants, which is exactly why Honda chose to go that route to the angst of many RWD-preferring purists. i wouldn't say you're wrong in your assertion of massive levels of grip and speed. but bear in mind, all the others have that too...
i get what you're saying, while hardly a controlled comparison however. and i do know the advantages of AWD in its many variants, which is exactly why Honda chose to go that route to the angst of many RWD-preferring purists. i wouldn't say you're wrong in your assertion of massive levels of grip and speed. but bear in mind, all the others have that too...
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